Lance being Lance

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Zam_Olyas

Zam_Olyas

Sep 30, 2011
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Random Direction

Random Direction

May 13, 2011
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Funny part of it is that Simon Whitfield is one of the nicest, most genuine people you'll ever meet. In personality, probably the complete opposite of Lance - except for the ferocious competitiveness when racing. Not sure that Simon has dealt with a narcissist with a huge PR firm behind him before.

Lance is driving a complete wedge into the triathlon community - funny enough the Ironman crowd probably are self-possessed enough to buy his b.s. The Olympic pros know what they are seeing and don't like it.
 
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karlboss

Mar 13, 2009
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Random Direction said:
Funny part of it is that Simon Whitfield is one of the nicest, most genuine people you'll ever meet. In personality, probably the complete opposite of Lance - except for the ferocious competitiveness when racing. Not sure that Simon has dealt with a narcissist with a huge PR firm behind him before.

Lance is driving a complete wedge into the triathlon community - funny enough the Ironman crowd probably are self-possessed enough to buy his b.s. The Olympic pros know what they are seeing and don't like it.
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The wedge already exists, all the best swimmer/cyclists move to Ironman as they know they can't compete in olympic distance. Ironman can be won by well not a swimmer, but a cyclist. Olympic distance only by a runner. Unless the bike course is super super tough which it rarely is.
I find watching olympic tris like watching sprint stages. At the end it's close, but there is normally a Cavendish near guaranteed to win, and it's only in doubt for a few minutes at best.
The Olympic pros already know all this, it's not to say what they do is easy, but the swim and bike are almost irrelevant. Go back through the world cup races and order the results by run time, top 5 or so will nearly always be the top 5 runner, probably in order. Doesn't say much for it being a combination of skills.
 
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Cloxxki

Mar 19, 2009
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karlboss said:
The wedge already exists, all the best swimmer/cyclists move to Ironman as they know they can't compete in olympic distance. Ironman can be won by well not a swimmer, but a cyclist. Olympic distance only by a runner. Unless the bike course is super super tough which it rarely is.
I find watching olympic tris like watching sprint stages. At the end it's close, but there is normally a Cavendish near guaranteed to win, and it's only in doubt for a few minutes at best.
The Olympic pros already know all this, it's not to say what they do is easy, but the swim and bike are almost irrelevant. Go back through the world cup races and order the results by run time, top 5 or so will nearly always be the top 5 runner, probably in order. Doesn't say much for it being a combination of skills.
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I feel an odd uneasiness when I realize I side with Lance on something, and this is one such rare occasion. If tri is to be tri, it should be about all three, not being a runner that's good enough to stick to the bunch and then sprint a 10k run. While it does make it less of a tri, it's certainly not a formality. It's just as tough to win, just takes a different training mix aimed at running. And Lance will never win one as he's a crappy running. Will he ever lose the roid bulk? Funny that he should go to Salazar for running advice, when already legendary good runners just go there for...oh that's another subject :)
 
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karlboss

Mar 13, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
I feel an odd uneasiness when I realize I side with Lance on something, and this is one such rare occasion. If tri is to be tri, it should be about all three, not being a runner that's good enough to stick to the bunch and then sprint a 10k run. While it does make it less of a tri, it's certainly not a formality. It's just as tough to win, just takes a different training mix aimed at running. And Lance will never win one as he's a crappy running. Will he ever lose the roid bulk? Funny that he should go to Salazar for running advice, when already legendary good runners just go there for...oh that's another subject :)
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I must amend my sprinters analogy, it's more like the tour of Romandie etc, where the top 30 was decided by the 5th stage ITT, absolutely nothing for the climbers. Needed to work on your ITT and then be in the best 60 climbers each day. :D
 
Random Direction

Random Direction

May 13, 2011
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I agree somewhat on the devaluing of swim and bike in ITU tri's, but somehow think that Lance's comments stem from him not being an elite tri runner, and therefore wouldn't place in the top 20 in a World Cup or Olympic race.

If there was drafting in Ironman, lord knows what would happen with a 500 person peleton of untrained triathletes going way faster than normal all geared out with aero-bars and disk wheels.
 
Hugh Januss

Hugh Januss

Jul 9, 2009
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Random Direction said:
I agree somewhat on the devaluing of swim and bike in ITU tri's, but somehow think that Lance's comments stem from him not being an elite tri runner, and therefore wouldn't place in the top 20 in a World Cup or Olympic race.

If there was drafting in Ironman, lord knows what would happen with a 500 person peleton of untrained triathletes going way faster than normal all geared out with aero-bars and disk wheels.
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Be like NASCAR.:D
 
BroDeal

BroDeal

Mar 18, 2009
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karlboss said:
The Olympic pros already know all this, it's not to say what they do is easy, but the swim and bike are almost irrelevant.
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No, they are not. The ITU/Olympic guys are very fast swimmers and cyclists. They have to be to make it to the run with a chance of winning. If someone cannot meet the minimum swim and cycling standard, a standard which is a very high, then they are nothing in ITU. On bike there is a big difference between maintaining a steady 300W while doing an Ironman and averaging 300W while responding to surges that come with riding in a group. The spikes in power output kill the legs for running.

One of the big mistakes that cyclists make when they do triathlons is they hammer on the bike too hard, frying their legs for the run. You have to dial back the effort and ride under what you are capable of. A lot of people doing Ironman distance will have a target power that they do not exceed because they know they will pay for it later. In a group, you do not have that luxury.

While I think that drafting in triathlon is lame, the ITU guys are smoking fast. The only long distance triathlete that has a chance against them is Macca, and he came from ITU.
 
L'Etranger

L'Etranger

Jan 22, 2011
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I am among those who feel uncomfortable agreeing with LA on anything, and he certainly made his point in an unnecessarily insulting manner, but it is undoubtedly true that the swim and bike in Olympic distance draft-legal races count for nothing on almost every occasion. Yes, all the best ITU triathletes are good swimmers, but they are all just looking to swim fast enough to be with the group on the bike, as there is no point in grabbing a 30 second advantage just to ride alone for 10k and then get swept up by the peloton. Swim times from the pre-drafting era of the early 1990s, when really good swimmers like Spencer Smith or Benjamin Sanson would break away from the field, were often faster than now, despite the improvements in wetsuits and training methods. Likewise on the bike, none of the best bother to try breaking away, they just minimise effort and wait for the run. And while there can indeed be surges and tough passages on hills, their average pulse and wattage on the bike are much lower than in the days before drafting, when everyone had to go flat out all the way. These days, often the entire field come off the bike together. This indeed gives the appearance of close races (the ITU used to hate it in the old days when some guy got a big lead on the bike, making the run un-suspenseful), but the same few suspects, the best 10k runners, are always there at the end. The analogy with sprint stages in cycling is apt.

So without in any way saying that ITU triathletes are less-trained or worse athletes than those that do Ironman, I do go along with the view that they are essentially 10k runners who swim and bike just well enough to get to the real start line with all the others.

As an anecdote, I remember being at Winnipeg in 1998 (competing as an age-grouper) when Simon Whitfield won his first Canadian triathlon championships. He stuck with Mark Bates, who had been Canada's best Olympic distance athlete for several years (coming 4th in the last draft-forbidden worlds in 1994), until the 10k and then pushed away for the win. Bates was reportedly irked that young Simon had not done more work on the bike, but that was the new reality: only the run counts.
 
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karlboss

Mar 13, 2009
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BroDeal said:
No, they are not. The ITU/Olympic guys are very fast swimmers and cyclists. They have to be to make it to the run with a chance of winning. If someone cannot meet the minimum swim and cycling standard, a standard which is a very high, then they are nothing in ITU. On bike there is a big difference between maintaining a steady 300W while doing an Ironman and averaging 300W while responding to surges that come with riding in a group. The spikes in power output kill the legs for running.

One of the big mistakes that cyclists make when they do triathlons is they hammer on the bike too hard, frying their legs for the run. You have to dial back the effort and ride under what you are capable of. A lot of people doing Ironman distance will have a target power that they do not exceed because they know they will pay for it later. In a group, you do not have that luxury.

While I think that drafting in triathlon is lame, the ITU guys are smoking fast. The only long distance triathlete that has a chance against them is Macca, and he came from ITU.
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That's the point, meet the minimum standard and then work on your run. It's no longer 3 sports, it's prefatigue and a run.
They can swim very fast, but don't they can ride very well, but don't.
It would be very interesting to look at any of the top triathletes best run time off the bike and best run time without the other 2 legs. I'm willing to bet there's no difference. Do the same thing with the swim and run and I'm willing to bet there is quite a difference. (of course forgetting about how poorly triathlon courses are sometimes measured.


Macca was ITU when it was draft illegal. He left because of what happened to his sport after persisting a little while.
 
slowspoke

slowspoke

Jul 15, 2010
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It's also worth saying that the Brownlee's, clearly the best Tri guys, are the best swimmers, and best bikers AND best runners. Watch any race with them in it and they lead the whole way. For everyone else mortal (make of that what you will) then yes its all about the run.
 
L'Etranger

L'Etranger

Jan 22, 2011
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Actually, the results do not confirm the claim that the Brownlees are the best swimmers, bikers and runners in the ITU field. Check out last year's World Cup results (http://www.triathlon.org/results/search/) and you will see that each time that a Brownlee won, his winning margin came on the run. Like the other top guys, they are both always near the front out of the swim and off the bike (like a good sprinter or GC contender staying out of trouble near the front of the peloton), but in the group, not separated from it. The results also illustrate a more general truth: take the same 50+ pros in each race and ask them to swim a 1.5k swim time trial, and the gap from 1st to last would be something like 3 minutes. But in a tri the top 50 are usually within 30secs of each other, i.e. the best swimmers manage their effort and the group exits the water together. They then generally bike together as well, again sub-maximally, with rare splits in the main peloton if the course is very hilly or technical or if there are incidents like crashes that break the pack. Then they get off the bike and the real racing starts.
 
Race Radio

Race Radio

Aug 13, 2009
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Watching Lance beat up on age group Tri geeks in his retirement in order to make a few $$ is like seeing some Heavyweight champion become a doorman in Las Vegas
 
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mthead14

May 9, 2012
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Race Radio said:
Watching Lance beat up on age group Tri geeks in his retirement in order to make a few $$ is like seeing some Heavyweight champion become a doorman in Las Vegas
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you're kinda missing the point, which is that he's training for Kona. Like it or not, his tri career should be judged on that - it's not like there are prestigious IM races every weekend.
 
Race Radio

Race Radio

Aug 13, 2009
12,854
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mthead14 said:
you're kinda missing the point, which is that he's training for Kona. Like it or not, his tri career should be judged on that - it's not like there are prestigious IM races every weekend.
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The 100th guy at the Tour is a better athlete then anyone at Kona. The competitive depth of Triathlon does not come remotely close to cycling.

He has found a willing market of dupes eager to give him $$$
 
Jeremiah

Jeremiah

May 19, 2012
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Race Radio said:
The 100th guy at the Tour is a better athlete then anyone at Kona. The competitive depth of Triathlon does not come remotely close to cycling.

He has found a willing market of dupes eager to give him $$$
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I'd be willing to bet that as super charged as he is now he could get a top ten at the Tour.
 
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