Lance Refuses to give Blood Sample to USADA

[MiXels]

My turn for a thread summary (in no particular order):

(1) Economics = fun!
(2) Monty Python = funny! (No you didn't.....yes you did.....no you didn't.....etc.).

But more to the point.....

(3) LA did not refuse to give a blood sample. This was inferred in the thread title, and I think 'the truth' has been established. Can anyone blame him for posting pics of his arms, or complaining on Twitter? If I were in his shoes, and I had stab marks all over my arms, I'd post pics, too.......just to prove I didn't do it myself. Arguably a "guilty conscience" action, but I won't fault him for it.

(4) If LA did in fact use transfusions at any time in Europe, the blood was probably drawn/stored there. Don't blast me for saying "if".....I'm scared of his legal team tracking me down
While this opinion does not appear to be shared by everyone 'here', I travel for work. Constantly. World-wide. I can tell you right now that it's not as simple as it sounds to smuggle anything into a country with dependable results. As far as "legally" transporting something like blood goes, that is relatively easy, and I'm sure a person could find the regulations using Google if they were interested or inspired (and I am neither right now). However, going the legal route would leave a paper trail. If you want to talk risk vs. reward, the transportation of blood would be the greatest risk factor, I think.

I'm sure there were other points that I have missed....but I am selfish, and points 3 and 4 are the ones that interest me. Well.....points 3, 4 and quality flames.

 

[fatandfast]

My turn for a thread summary (in no particular order):

(1) Economics = fun!
(2) Monty Python = funny! (No you didn't.....yes you did.....no you didn't.....etc.).

But more to the point.....

(3) LA did not refuse to give a blood sample. This was inferred in the thread title, and I think 'the truth' has been established. Can anyone blame him for posting pics of his arms, or complaining on Twitter? If I were in his shoes, and I had stab marks all over my arms, I'd post pics, too.......just to prove I didn't do it myself. Arguably a "guilty conscience" action, but I won't fault him for it.

(4) If LA did in fact use transfusions at any time in Europe, the blood was probably drawn/stored there. Don't blast me for saying "if".....I'm scared of his legal team tracking me down
While this opinion does not appear to be shared by everyone 'here', I travel for work. Constantly. World-wide. I can tell you right now that it's not as simple as it sounds to smuggle anything into a country with dependable results. As far as "legally" transporting something like blood goes, that is relatively easy, and I'm sure a person could find the regulations using Google if they were interested or inspired (and I am neither right now). However, going the legal route would leave a paper trail. If you want to talk risk vs. reward, the transportation of blood would be the greatest risk factor, I think.

I'm sure there were other points that I have missed....but I am selfish, and points 3 and 4 are the ones that interest me. Well.....points 3, 4 and quality flames.

Monty Python blood team is correct, Bumbling fools with a needle and a mandate doesn't make it any less funny. I think it may be pretty easy to smuggle things into the country when you have a private plane and lots of non conventional baggage like bicycles and their associated parts. Yes to carry a bag or two of blood is difficult on a commercial flight. Our airport security in the US is poor on even the best day. The smile fest Lance gets almost everywhere he goes in the west probably gets him the lightest of pat downs at the security check points. I am not afraid of his people following me and I am also saying I don't think he is carrying spare blood around with him waiting for a looming drug test. A friend of mine saw him take a drug test in the US(@6 years ago) and said he did it with a smile. I am no fan of his and being an American from Texas makes it almost impossible for him to carry off any James Bond long term anything. Always keep in mind Lance is a pal of George Bush...but he is a different kind of dope.

 

[ggusta]

Not sure why you're getting so carried away, having done many economics units, Risk/Reward doesn't feature significantly, that's my learnings, yours may be different, neither of us are incorrect.

I really don't know how the concept of risk is factored into economics as economics is taught in American universities.

Risk is more the baileywick of Finance.

This thread really needs to be put to the sword.

 

[MiXels]

Yes to carry a bag or two of blood is difficult on a commercial flight.

I probably should have mentioned that I travel with a minimum of 200 Kg of equipment. My statement still stands: it's extremely difficult to rely on suspect/illegal items getting through customs. Anywhere. Some searchers are thorough, some are lazy.

Our airport security in the US is poor on even the best day.

Getting off topic a bit here (lol), but after living in the USA and traveling in and out for the past ~15 years, I'd disagree. You can get away with a lot, to be sure....I have friends who regularly travel with marijuana. However, I can state with some certainty that I would not rely on getting even 1-2 bags of blood through even regular security, let alone customs.

At any rate, I stand by my original point: the most believable scenario would be for athletes to draw/store blood in Europe. I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but I'm thinking it would take a pile of hush money (or some good planning) to get said blood across borders within Europe.

This thread really needs to be put to the sword.

Certainly. But it will just continue somewhere else.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'd close the thread, but Mix is right, the argument would just start up again in a new Lance/doping thread.

I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but I'm thinking it would take a pile of hush money (or some good planning) to get said blood across borders within Europe.

But how many times did Willy Voet cross borders with drugs before being caught? Though perhaps you're referring to 2009 border security, versus 1992-1998.

 

[MiXels]

But how many times did Willy Voet cross borders with drugs before being caught? Though perhaps you're referring to 2009 border security, versus 1992-1998.

Definitely 2009 security. I waltzed through the airports in Zurich and Paris with a souvenir hand grenade in my checked luggage without a comment in ~1993. They had a few things to say to me when I got to Heathrow

These days, I tend to get the full treatment everywhere: full bag searches, pat-downs, etc. There are certainly 'easy' borders to cross on the ground (Canada/USA, most EU borders), but you can expect that your kit will be examined in detail when you fly. There's a reason why you are told to show up at the airport 3 hours in advance of international flights now.

A team attempting to carry their own blood is just a bit too far-fetched these days.

 

[Escarabajo]

This is getting a little bit off topic, but while we are discussing it why not pitching in my 2 cents.

1- Who believes that Armstrong travel with his own blood? I think that is too risky for him to do.

2- Maybe we need some help from people in the medicine business that do a lot of travel. Doesn’t health related personnel or Doctors from hospitals get a permit to travel with special medicines or blood or other similar stuff? Most of these riders that dope are doing it with Doctors supervision, so I don't see the point of riders drawing the blood themselves, storing it and delivering it to the race. We have seen that this takes some logistics, which does not come cheap, for a lone rider to take the full responsibility himself. Read all the stories of all the whistleblowers, I have not seen one that did not have a Doctor and a hospital at his disposal. So I don't understand what is the point of discussing logistics of getting through customs with blood (???).

I don't understand why I have not seen the participation of some other important members of this forum that work in the health area. Maybe is the slow season. Because this topic should have been solved already.

 

[fatandfast]

Definitely 2009 security. I waltzed through the airports in Zurich and Paris with a souvenir hand grenade in my checked luggage without a comment in ~1993. They had a few things to say to me when I got to Heathrow

These days, I tend to get the full treatment everywhere: full bag searches, pat-downs, etc. There are certainly 'easy' borders to cross on the ground (Canada/USA, most EU borders), but you can expect that your kit will be examined in detail when you fly. There's a reason why you are told to show up at the airport 3 hours in advance of international flights now.

A team attempting to carry their own blood is just a bit too far-fetched these days.

2 trips to India and 1 to Mumbasa. If an elephant would have fit through the door I could have carried it on. My good friend shoots indie films and carries on lighting rigs, camera stuff(cords, misc electronics) he is stopped every time for a good going over while me with a surf board or bicycle are waved through without much bother. If he gave out a couple of Animal Planet tshirts he could probably get an easier time. JFK, Newark and La Guardia. I fly to Sky Harbor and LAX once a quarter if you think airport security is harder than pre 2001 sure, that's a given. It's a joke now so pre 9/11 was water through your hands. Any racer caring needles and blood in a shoe box will get caught most of the time. Everybody needs to face it. No matter what war on drugs you are talking about it's being lost, land,sea or air.

 

[MiXels]

A rider carrying his own stuff would definitely be silly. I think a team doctor would be suspect, also. Yes, you can get a permit to transport blood/tissue/organs....but again, there is a paper trail.

I'm only responding because I am having a slow work day. We are getting way off the original topic of....uh.....someone refresh my mind. Unicorn economics? Someone mentioned the difficulties in transporting blood, I responded with half-explained arguments. It's a worthless debate, really, but sometimes a guy has to satisfy his curiosity.

 

[ChrisE]

...
I don't understand why I have not seen the participation of some other important members of this forum that work in the health area. Maybe is the slow season. Because this topic should have been solved already.

We haven't even determined whether LA travels back and forth to Europe in his own private jet. That needs to be laid to rest before we can tackle the logistics of blood bags getting thru customs.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

We haven't even determined whether LA travels back and forth to Europe in his own private jet. That needs to be laid to rest before we can tackle the logistics of blood bags getting thru customs.

Ok - LA uses the services of Flexjet who run the private jets. Basically you buy an aircraft, Flexjet run it for you and you have access to all their fleet.
One call to Flexjet, provide the details and they collect you from your nearest airport - usually a private airport to avoid delays.

Flexjet provide the type of aircraft most suitable for the range of your trip and the amount of passangers. They have a fleet that includes many with the capability for long haul flight like the C300.
In short he owns one aircraft but has access to many others.

As for customs and security - again private jets often go to private airports where there is little security and little to none in the way of customs.

 

[ChrisE]

...
As for customs and security - again private jets often go to private airports where there is little security and little to none in the way of customs.

How much travelling do you do? People can't land at any random airport they choose when entering a country. They must land at an airport that has customs. Especially LA in France. You think he can roll into any airport he wants and then his groupies come piling out with igloos full of blood bags?

Sprocket poses an interesting question that hasn't been answered, and you have failed miserably here. The peanut gallery upthread talks about hairy penises and economics as a diversion. LA hardly is ever in France, so how does his frozen blood get there?

Sprocket posed the plausible explanation that the top riders that were at the ceremony the other day in Paris may have given blood then. It would seem to me that the UCI, ASO, etc. would have been there watching closely.

Who takes care of his blood when it is in France? It would seem to me that he has to have somebody on payroll to guard it else it may get spiked like his 99 samples.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How much travelling do you do? People can't land at any random airport they choose when entering a country. They must land at an airport that has customs. Especially LA in France. You think he can roll into any airport he wants and then his groupies come piling out with igloos full of blood bags?

Sprocket poses an interesting question that hasn't been answered, and you have failed miserably here. The peanut gallery upthread talks about hairy penises and economics as a diversion. LA hardly is ever in France, so how does his frozen blood get there?

Sprocket posed the plausible explanation that the top riders that were at the ceremony the other day in Paris may have given blood then. It would seem to me that the UCI, ASO, etc. would have been there watching closely.

Who takes care of his blood when it is in France? It would seem to me that he has to have somebody on payroll to guard it else it may get spiked like his 99 samples.

Actually I do a lot of air travel. Part of the difficulty here is people are associating their experience of going on vacation with what the users of private aircraft enjoy.

I am not talking about landing at some grassy strip in the middle of no-where. However most medium sized airfields have part time customs who are rostered for incoming commercial flights.
In most airports there is a seperate dedicated area for private travellers who avail of private aircraft.

 

[Escarabajo]

...

Sprocket poses an interesting question that hasn't been answered, and you have failed miserably here. The peanut gallery upthread talks about hairy penises and economics as a diversion. LA hardly is ever in France, so how does his frozen blood get there?

...

Why do we care? Do you call that an important question? What is your problem? Do you want to start a doping ring or something? Or you think people in this forum are in the business of doping? Do you think we are criminals? If you want an answer send an e-mail to Ferrari or Fuentes and see if they respond. Be careful of what kind of information you want to know because we might become suspicious of you.

I'll help you out a little. Look at the beginning of the Clinic and look for a thread that talks about the logistics of doping. You might find something new. There was another thread that talked about that but I don't remember the title. None of these threads did go very far because of the same reasons, the people in this forum are not in the business of doping or so it looks.



I am relief now.

 

[Anonymous]

Definitely 2009 security. I waltzed through the airports in Zurich and Paris with a souvenir hand grenade in my checked luggage without a comment in ~1993. They had a few things to say to me when I got to Heathrow .

it is amazing what you can get through customs...

slightly amusing although slightly long story here
http://www.dimspace.net/Sites/dimsp...i 2007 audio/08 Carrying a Gun In Germany.mp3

a guy called jason webley, who was over n the UK from america having succesfully, accidentally ,travelled across america to germany with.. well.. the title gives it away...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sprocket posed the plausible explanation that the top riders that were at the ceremony the other day in Paris may have given blood then. It would seem to me that the UCI, ASO, etc. would have been there watching closely.

Who takes care of his blood when it is in France? It would seem to me that he has to have somebody on payroll to guard it else it may get spiked like his 99 samples.

Just to answer these quickly - when LA was in Paris recently he met President Sarkozy after the TdF ceremony.
He twittered when he left Sarkozy and twittered to say when he was at the airport - almost 4 hours later.

As to who takes care of the blood when its in France? All teams have soigneurs and Doctors.

 

[Race Radio]

Armstrong now uses Netjets because they gave him a break if he did a few ads for them.

I fly a bunch, sometimes private. Many airports have customs, even small ones. Girona has a one as it is a Ryanair hub. If the airport does not have a customs "Hut" you can schedule an international landing and the regional customs guy will meet you. It costs less then 20 minutes of Jet A for a G IV (Armstrong's plane of choice). Netjets will arrange it all for you or the local FBO will do it.....there are also shipping companies that transport blood.

We can all agree that riders have been, and continue to, use transfusions for performance enhancement. OP showed how the system functions. To pretend that this is no longer the case because we do not have the license plate of the motorcycle with refrigerated panniers is just a straw man.

 

[Race Radio]

All this talk of customs reminds me of my former teammate/roommate back in the late 80's. He was Swiss and during the off season he worked security for Swiss air in Zurich.

He would always talk about how in Switzerland he had the best bed ever because he had a mattress stuffed with horse hair. On a trip to California he went down and tossed his mattress and a brand new team Bianchi on the luggage cart. The mattress made it to LAX, he never saw the bike again.

 

[Sprocket01]

Race Radio,

don't take this the wrong way, but whilst I'm sure many people enjoy you sharing your experiences as a rider with the forum, it doesn't look very good when you drop hints about being a former pro all the time but then go on to attack Armstrong. It only seems like your someone who is using anonymity to smear him because of some personal grudge you have. If this is not the case then why are you keeping your identity secret?

I think you should either be transparent and reveal who you are, so people can judge for themselves what your motivation is, or you should not go dropping tit bits about your apparent former career as if you're someone really important that has special insight. It's not really fair on any level

Sorry but I think that needs to be said. You don't see Joe Pappe hiding who he is to attack other riders. He knows that wouldn't be right. If your in the position of being a former pro then you have to be honest.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

RaceRadio........

don't take this the wrong way, .....

Sproket01..

I am sure many here enjoy reading about you eating chicken at 2am in the UK - so I think it is only fair that you should reveal your identity
I am looking forward to you explaining your motivation to keep protecting Armstrong and why you contribute little else to any other topic.

Seems strange for someone in the UK - as you said "If this is not the case then why are you keeping your identity secret?".... good point.

 

[Sprocket01]

Sproket01..

I am sure many here enjoy reading about you eating chicken at 2am in the UK - so I think it is only fair that you should reveal your identity
I am looking forward to you explaining your motivation to keep protecting Armstrong and why you contribute little else to any other topic.

Seems strange for someone in the UK - as you said "If this is not the case then why are you keeping your identity secret?".... good point.

But I can confirm that I am not a former pro, a current pro, and do not know Armstrong or any of his associates, JB or his wife. If I was connected with them then yes, it probably would be appropriate for me to reveal who I am. Indeed, many people used suspect I was connected in some way and wanted to know. They were right that I should declare that interest if it was true.

But RR just drops little hints all the time, like "I've raced against Armstrong", as if that isn't relevant to anything. Yes it is revelant. If he is some former American pro then he really needs to come clean about who is he otherwise he is abusing his position. It's also a bit smarmy really.

 

[Race Radio]

Race Radio,

don't take this the wrong way, but whilst I'm sure many people enjoy you sharing your experiences as a rider with the forum, it doesn't look very good when you drop hints about being a former pro all the time but then go on to attack Armstrong. It only seems like your someone who is using anonymity to smear him because of some personal grudge you have. If this is not the case then why are you keeping your identity secret?

I think you should either be transparent and reveal who you are, so people can judge for themselves what your motivation is, or you should not go dropping tit bits about your apparent former career as if you're someone really important that has special insight. It's not really fair on any level

Sorry but I think that needs to be said. You don't see Joe Pappe hiding who he is to attack other riders. He knows that wouldn't be right. If your in the position of being a former pro then you have to be honest.

I never was a Pro cyclist. I have never made that claim. I did compete at a high level as an amateur but never made the leap as a cyclist. I have a few friends that did and yes, I have met most of the people I write about. I was luckily enough to live and race in Europe for quite a while when I was younger and now am there 3-5 times a year for fun and work.

You are free to believe some elaborate theory for some to dislike Armstrong but I think we can all agree that there is more then enough information in the public domain for most rational people to come to the same conclusion about Lance.

 

[Sprocket01]

Okay so you're not a former pro. I think it's good we have cleared that up, because whilst you never say that you are, you often say things that seem to deliberately hint that you are, without being specific, and in my opinion you use that to bolster your credibility on issues like the one cited in this thread.

From now on nobody will get that impression. In truth you don't have much better knowledge than the rest of us, which is fine.

But of course one is still free to speculate in general terms how amateurs might be a bit down on the guys that did make it to being pros.....

 

[Race Radio]

Okay so you're not a former pro. I think it's good we have cleared that up, because whilst you never say that you are, you often say things that seem to deliberately hint that you are, without being specific, and in my opinion you use that to bolster your credibility on issues like the one cited in this thread.

From now on nobody will get that impression. In truth you don't have much better knowledge than the rest of us, which is fine.

But of course one is still free to speculate in general terms how amateurs might be a bit down on the guys that did make it to being pros.....

The voices in your head must be mad at you tonight.

 

[BikeCentric]

Okay so you're not a former pro. I think it's good we have cleared that up, because whilst you never say that you are, you often say things that seem to deliberately hint that you are, without being specific, and in my opinion you use that to bolster your credibility on issues like the one cited in this thread.

From now on nobody will get that impression. In truth you don't have much better knowledge than the rest of us, which is fine.

But of course one is still free to speculate in general terms how amateurs might be a bit down on the guys that did make it to being pros.....

Wow more personal attacks of a rude and derogatory manner from the Sprocket. I personally think the guy has credibility because (and I know this will probably come as news to you) if you've raced as a Cat 1 or 2 (and sometimes even 3) you WILL race against the pros on a regular basis. You'll be in the peloton with them. It's pretty obvious from your posts Sprocket that you've never raced before.