Landis letter re drug use in cycling

[richwagmn]

So you don't like him as a person's character so you want to tear down cycling by pretending he is responsible for all doping. It's so spiteful to me.

Read the blog by Adam Myerson posted below. He explains the situation very well, and it applied to Armstrong just as much as Landis. Though he comes to the wrong conclusion - the blood passport is cleaning up cycling already. No need to burn anything down.

What? How do you know cycling is being cleaned up? Do you really think the passport is that hard to circumvent?

 

[Red Lobster]

Guys, leave Gree alone - he genuinely believes Lance has never doped.

I refuse to believe that such a thing is possible. If someone starts up on an astrophysics forum about the sun orbiting the earth, you would have to believe he is trolling.

 

[Publicus]

Ahh, the old conundrum of proving a negative. Kind of along the same lines as the classic - "When did you stop beating your wife?"


Based on what has appeared online and from print sources, Flandis has said he has none.

As has been noted this is the classic "she said - he said (actually, they said)" situation. Personally, I place no credence in anything that has been said by anyone over the last two days. No one. This is a skirmish in some weird kind of battle that appears to have been brewing for some time, and the speculation about the roots, reasons, or outcome at this time is, IMO, somewhat futile.

This is the kind of event that will play out over many months, or longer. There will be no instantaneous resolution. But this thread has been fascinating, reading the different reactions, speculations, rumors, interpretations of emails (all unconfirmed at this time), and the ability of posters in either camp to project their biases in forecasting future events.

Fair point about proving a negative. That's why the burden of proof is on Floyd. My point was that simply declaring his allegations false at this point because others denied it isn't proof of anything.

That's actually not true. He's said that he can't corroborate everything he is saying.

He added that he has no documentation for many of the claims he is making about other riders or officials, and that it will be his word against theirs.

Landis, who began his career as a top mountain biker, had kept detailed training journals since he was a teenager. He said he continued the same methodical record-keeping once he started using banned drugs and techniques. Landis said he spent as much as $90,000 a year on performance-enhancing drugs and on consultants to help him build a training regime. Landis said he has kept all of his journals and diaries and has offered to share them with U.S. anti-doping authorities in recent meetings. He added that he has given officials detailed information on how athletes are beating drug testing.

I also didn't pay much attention to Merrick's statement initially, but they seem to contradict this notion that Floyd was using his potential bombshell to force the Tour of California to take his team:

Andrew Messick, president of AEG Sports that owns the Tour, said that the ToC welcomed Landis last year when his suspension from cycling ended but that his new team didn't warrant an invite this year. "Floyd thought it was personal. He thought he was being punished. And he did what he did. Whether there is a link there, that's a question to ask Floyd."

Asked whether Landis threatened to go public with his allegations if his team was not invited, Messick said, "He didn't, but we all listen to the chatter. It's other people who call you and tell you stuff. But Floyd never said it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5203604

But I am with you. I'm not putting too much credence on anything. I'm just taking everything at this point. Fair too much missing information to draw any conclusions about whether Floyd is lying again or playing this one straight.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

@Aerodynamics - It's interesting that you accuse me of joining a witch hunt against one rider, instead of speaking out against doping. You have four posts as I write this. I wonder in the length of time you have been on this forum how familiar you have made yourself with my stances on the issue of doping?

You claim I am making an ad hominen attack (against you, or Lance I presume) to make my point. But this becomes a war of interpretation. I believe most of what Floyd is saying is factual, and that I don't interpret what he's said to be something else. I don't see a gain he has to make from doing this - being an initial contact to USADA, not the public.

It isn't just Floyd's word. It's the pile of other evidence against Lance as to why I do not believe him. It's the Ashenden interview and retests. It's the Mike Anderson lawsuit, it's Emma O'Reilly's testimony, it's Betsy Andreu's testimony, it's Lemond's claims from their conversations, it's the fact Lance has chased down and harassed whistle blowers, it's the Ferrari connection, it's the JV-FA exchange, it's the Stephanie McIlvain, recording, it's the Astana drip bags, it's the fact Don Catlin was dismissed, it's the fact nearly everyone he defeated over his career was shown to have doped, plus many of his former teammates, it's the multi-thousand dollar "donation" to the UCI. The list goes on and on and on, with Floyd's claims merely another stack on the pile that do happen to fit in and a hot topic at the moment.

If you believe my challenging you to refute this is an ad hominen "attack" then so be it.

I'm not trying to "rake back" to the past. I just want the absolute truth to come out, the omerta broken and the sport to be cleaned up. Just because it's cleaner because of the biopassport (and other reasons), as I have stated before if you were familiar with my posts, is not the same.

 

[Aerodynamics]

A continued stream of idiotic posts and lies. Floyd hijacking the ToC?
LMAO. You fanboys really are a disgusting bunch of hacks.

The same poster was really angry that Lance defended himself today whilst the ToC was still going on. It turns out Floyd planned to do the same thing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ahh, the old conundrum of proving a negative. Kind of along the same lines as the classic - "When did you stop beating your wife?"


Based on what has appeared online and from print sources, Flandis has said he has none.

As has been noted this is the classic "she said - he said (actually, they said)" situation. Personally, I place no credence in anything that has been said by anyone over the last two days. No one. This is a skirmish in some weird kind of battle that appears to have been brewing for some time, and the speculation about the roots, reasons, or outcome at this time is, IMO, somewhat futile.

This is the kind of event that will play out over many months, or longer. There will be no instantaneous resolution. But this thread has been fascinating, reading the different reactions, speculations, rumors, interpretations of emails (all unconfirmed at this time), and the ability of posters in either camp to project their biases in forecasting future events.

This is a forum - indeed one you participate in.

You are correct that this could be played out over a long period, it will probably take years to establish the full facts.

Pro Cycling is built on sand - yesterdays events are just the first ripple - and as people trip up on their stories - it could quickly turn in to a wave.

And if you are questioning my ability in forecasting future events - I am not, what has happened over the last few days is almost a repeat to what happened with CONI in Italy during the late 90's.

 

[Publicus]

Are you angry at Floyd for trying to hijack the ToC for his own ends? Was it you that was terribly upset that Armstrong dared to defend himself while the tour was still on?

Angry??? No, not at all. I'm fascinated by the story/drama, but no angry. In lots of ways it has increased the visibility of the ToC to the detriment of the Giro. As to the last question, I actually have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Angry??? No, not at all. I'm fascinated by the story/drama, but no angry. In lots of ways it has increased the visibility of the ToC to the detriment of the Giro. As to the last question, I actually have no idea what you are talking about.

You do realise who you're replying to?

 

[Cal_Joe]

And if you are questioning my ability in forecasting future events - I am not, what has happened over the last few days is almost a repeat to what happened with CONI in Italy during the late 90's.

My statement regarding forecasts was a blanket statement covering the entire thread. I did not single any poster out, as there have been many forecasts.

No slight was intended regarding any single post or poster.

Now, can we go have dinner with a nice bottle of wine and kiss and make up?

 

[craig1985]

It almost comical the way this is imploding. It’s like an exploding cigar!

Think I might stay in the for the night and watch this unfold. Next move Floyd Landis.

I have to say it's really hard to keep track of this thread.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You do realise who you're replying to?

I'm starting to think the same thing.

 

[Aerodynamics]

You claim I am making an ad hominen attack (against you, or Lance I presume) to make my point.

Sorry this is really poor. I said you made an ad hominen attack on the commentator Phil to make your point. The same type of attack you guys were go nuts about if it's against someone you agree with.

But this becomes a war of interpretation. I believe most of what Floyd is saying is factual, and that I don't interpret what he's said to be something else. I don't see a gain he has to make from doing this - being an initial contact to USADA, not the public.

I think there is a lot of truth to what he says, obviously, everyone knows about what you had to do to compete at GC. He may have sexed up some of it though. But that's not the point. The point is why come out with it now, after denying all this for years. Clearly it's because his career is finished, he couldn't find a way to get found innocent, and he obviously is fed up with people like you hating on him. There is nothing noble about what he has done, obviously - the first thing he could have done was admit what he did. If he had done that years ago but was now telling more about others, that would be slightly different, but this is obviously spite from him and wanting to blame Armstrong why why he got caught on a different team. The fact that you can't grasp this is probably why you lash out at people and claim they are enforcing omerta. They're not - they are just looking at it rationally.

I'm not trying to "rake back" to the past. I just want the absolute truth to come out, the omerta broken and the sport to be cleaned up. Just because it's cleaner because of the biopassport (and other reasons), as I have stated before if you were familiar with my posts, is not the same.

I'm afraid you do want to rake back and dig up lots of stuff about Armstrong. You're not calling for Eddie Mercx to be investigated despite his involvment in doping. You're not concerned about any of these other riders. This is all about Armstrong and nothing to do with cleaning up the sport.

And the reason why I have so few posts is because you crapped your pants and banned me for daring to put the outside view.

 

[craig1985]

Hold on a minute, wasn't 'Aerodynamics' banned?

 

[Aerodynamics]

You do realise who you're replying to?

Yes it's the global Armstrong media stooge centre. We're everywhere!

Paranoia anyone?

 

[Cal_Joe]

And the reason why I have so few posts is because you crapped your pants and banned me for daring to put the outside view.

Ruh Roh......

 

[Aerodynamics]

Hold on a minute, wasn't 'Aerodynamics' banned?

Yes the truth lovers here love banning anc censoring people.

Makes you think, doesn't it.

 

[eljimberino]

Most people in the world simply see a bunch of grown up boys riding around on bikes. They struggle to take the sport, and therefore the doping scandals, seriously. If any governing body is going to go after Armstrong et al the dudes at the top need to think it is worth while both financially and ethically. Someone like Obama for example will never care about this.

 

[buckwheat]

Most people in the world simply see a bunch of grown up boys riding around on bikes. They struggle to take the sport, and therefore the doping scandals, seriously. If any governing body is going to go after Armstrong et al the dudes at the top need to think it is worth while both financially and ethically. Someone like Obama for example will never care about this.

Not true at all.

John Ashcroft was a huge impetus behind the Balco investigation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My statement regarding forecasts was a blanket statement covering the entire thread. I did not single any poster out, as there have been many forecasts.

No slight was intended regarding any single post or poster.

Now, can we go have dinner with a nice bottle of wine and kiss and make up?

Apologies - I was not taking your other post personaly, just pointing out how I come to my own conclusions. As you say there are many different opinions here - and until more information comes out, many have equal (or no) value.

(Red wine, good - dinner, always nice - kiss and make up, hmm that depends..... if you are a Joe, then I'm doing my hair - if you are a Joesphine today could be your lucky day )

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yes the truth lovers here love banning anc censoring people.

Makes you think, doesn't it.

I wish it made you think. For once.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes it's the global Armstrong media stooge centre. We're everywhere!

Paranoia anyone?

I never said you were part of the 'global Armstrong media stooge' group, BPC.

And thats a rather nasty ''ad hominem' on the people of Public Strategies, you should apologize to them, they are only doing their job.

 

[craig1985]

I wish it made you think. For once.

For a moment I thought I was Bill Murray and was starring in Ground Hog Day.

 

[Publicus]

You do realise who you're replying to?

Of course.

 

[woodburn]

Interesting nothing on Twitter by Vaughters. Not even about the race.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes the truth lovers here love banning anc censoring people.

Makes you think, doesn't it.

You're right it does make me think.....

Things like, how mnay usernames have you had on this site now, it must be well over 40

And do you have to get a new IP address or is the CN security not all that great?