Landis letter re drug use in cycling

[Berzin]

Now that the federal agent involved in the BALCO case is looking into Landis' accusations, here is a possible scenario-

Some American riders get subpoenaed. I would venture to guess at the preliminary names-

Tyler Hamilton, Kevin Livingston, George Hincapie, Frankie Andreu, Jonathan Vaughters.

You do not want to lie to the feds. Just ask Marion Jones.

I am hoping that there will be a concerted effort to clear some of this up. If a couple of these guys present a united front, then the facade will come down and the charade finally comes to an end.

If not, if the people I mentioned are either still too scared of Armstrong or are concerned about future employment prospects, you may as well forget the whole thing.

But that is the driving force behind omerta, isn't it?

I have to say now coming forward that cycling needs to win this battle. Too many forces within the sport want to keep things as they are, simply because so many people have invested in Armstrong.

This investment has been made in different forms, from the unrepentant fanboy who truly believe that 7 Tour wins in a row with a revolving door of domestiques is at all possible without organized, in-house doping, to the people aligned with Armstrong on the business side who have made money cynically selling his back-form-the-dead, clean-living, honest-to-goodness hardest-working-man-in-cycling persona.

No fraud this big can survive the scrutiny if properly applied. Let's hope for the sake of cycling an outside agency not aligned with the UCI will try their best to get at the truth.

 

[D Avoid]

useless post

I thought it made more sense than some I've seen and read.Well done.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Alas, "Only available within NZ due to international rights agreement"

Doh - I did a transcript, because I thought it was a surprisingly good piece by TVNZ. (Transcript of prime time news piece from NZ state funded broadcaster...)

Many suspect it but no one has been able to prove it, that Lance Armstrong is a drugs cheat. Now, former team mate Floyd Landis has confessed to using performance enhancing drugs, and has accused Armstrong of doing the same.

Floyd Landis is a drugs cheat caught in 2006 taking synthetic testosterone. He was stripped of his Tour de France title but he has always proclaimed his innocence, until today. In an explosive interview, he confessed to using performance enhancing drugs for most of his career, and says he saw fellow American Lance Armstrong doing the same.

Armstong interview clip: “he has nothing, he has no proof... yada yada... we like our credibility”

Landis has sent email to US cycling and anti doping officials, implicating dozens of riders including the 7 times Tour de France winner. In one email he alleges that in 2004 a team bus pretended to have engine trouble and stopped, in order for cyclists to receive ½ liter blood transfusions, and that included Armstrong.

An accusation that has grabbed the attention of the World Anti Doping Authority. Voice clip from David Howman, Director General of WADA: “The allegations are serious, they should be taken seriously by those to whom they are directed, and we've got to listen carefully to what Mr Landis has said.”

Interview: Mark Watson, Cycling Commentator “These are not baseless allegations. Lance Armstrong, 7 time Tour de France winner. From my recollection that's about 149 days. He's had about 148 good ones, in the toughest, dirtiest sport on the planet. I find it hard to believe he's the only clean one.”

Former New Zealand cyclist Steven Swart also alleged he and Armstrong took the banned red cell booster, EPO, when they rode together in 1995, but says Landis' accusations come too little, too late. Swart interview: “I'd say he's been let down by the code of silence that exists in bike racing and fells like he has nowhere else to turn, so he might as well go out with a bang.”

Today's news clearly rocked armstrong, this morning crashing out of the Tour of California with a suspected broken elbow. Armstong interview clip: “we have nothing to run from, if anyone has questions we'd be more than happy to answer them”

Questions that are sure to be asked in the coming weeks.

 

[gjdavis60]

Thanks for that. Keep in mind that according to this article the feds used a cheque fraud charge to get Marion Jones to squeal.

A quote from the article, "To extract her confession, he (Novitzky) used the leverage of a more serious charge from an unrelated check-fraud scheme. No positive test result was needed. Ms. Jones pleaded guilty to lying to federal agents."

Yep. As I posted yesterday, this is the only way to get to the truth about professional cycling and to finger those who are responsible. It is systemic, organized crime and law enforcement must take the lead.

 

[simmspin]

Doh - I did a transcript, because I thought it was a surprisingly good piece by TVNZ. (Transcript of prime time news piece from NZ state funded broadcaster...)

Wish I'd checked back earlier and saved you the trouble! I found a watchable link from overseas to the TVNZ piece here

I think you may have been trying to watch the TVNZ On Demand channel which is block outside of NZ.....(wife found that out trying to watch Shortland St!!!!!)

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

i was thinking that myself. i was almost expecting when i came on this morning this thread to be closed and a "landis day 2" thread to be started..

would be useful if the important links, lance response, and any press reports relevant ie. the barry one etc could be put in the closed sticky.

If someone wants to gather them, I will gladly allow you to post them in the closed sticky thread.

Susan

 

[gjdavis60]

Now that the federal agent involved in the BALCO case is looking into Landis' accusations, here is a possible scenario-

Some American riders get subpoenaed. I would venture to guess at the preliminary names-

Tyler Hamilton, Kevin Livingston, George Hincapie, Frankie Andreu, Jonathan Vaughters.

You do not want to lie to the feds. Just ask Marion Jones.

I am hoping that there will be a concerted effort to clear some of this up. If a couple of these guys present a united front, then the facade will come down and the charade finally comes to an end.

If not, if the people I mentioned are either still too scared of Armstrong or are concerned about future employment prospects, you may as well forget the whole thing.

But that is the driving force behind omerta, isn't it?

I have to say now coming forward that cycling needs to win this battle. Too many forces within the sport want to keep things as they are, simply because so many people have invested in Armstrong.

This investment has been made in different forms, from the unrepentant fanboy who truly believe that 7 Tour wins in a row with a revolving door of domestiques is at all possible without organized, in-house doping, to the people aligned with Armstrong on the business side who have made money cynically selling his back-form-the-dead, clean-living, honest-to-goodness hardest-working-man-in-cycling persona.

No fraud this big can survive the scrutiny if properly applied. Let's hope for the sake of cycling an outside agency not aligned with the UCI will try their best to get at the truth.

Professional cycling = organized crime.

 

[auscyclefan94]

If someone wants to gather them, I will gladly allow you to post them in the closed sticky thread.

Susan

Susan's take on this saga?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Wish I'd checked back earlier and saved you the trouble! I found a watchable link from overseas to the TVNZ piece here

I think you may have been trying to watch the TVNZ On Demand channel which is block outside of NZ.....(wife found that out trying to watch Shortland St!!!!!)

@rse. Oh well - at least if anyone want to see if I'm taking the **** they can...and they can enjoy the accents . I had forgotten that Howman was a kiwi before this episode.

Ferminal - Omerta alive and well in Aus I see

Rata - Nice find!

 

[gree0232]

Allright, I have watched this for a few days now and have to admit that this has not gone in any direction I would have thought when I first read the story (or at least the possibility thereof). Unfortunately, just skimming the thread, you see those who are conviced Lance is guilty believing anything Landis says and those who believe Lance is innocent who downplay everything Landis says. To put this in proper perspective, I have always viewed Lance's doping allegations as a legal issue. If the proof risen to the point of provable conviction (whether I agree or not) then Lance doped. If it doesn't, having daming it appears, than Lance did not dope. Therefore evidence and court rulings have always mattered more than speculation or even the volume of evidence. THe question is always: Can you get a conviction?

Hopefully, that'll steer off some of the Lance bashers.

As someone who admired Landis, whether he doped or not the man could definitely ride a bike, I find what is coming out to be alarming on many different levels. First, I am again reminded of Landis inability to handle the press or the politics of cycling. His reaction when he first tested positive after the Tour was bungled and inept, and his attempts to find diverse reasons for the positive couped with a less than professional appearence showed a man that was clearly out of his depth.

We can again see this quality in Landis. The love-hate Lance fest generally focuses on LA doping, but the reality is that Floyd accussed just about everyone. Dave Z? George Hincapie? Allen Lim (WTF?)? Levi? His former managers from Phonak? And even the UCI itself? All of it without proof. We have already had categorical denials from just about every party to the Landis accusation. By the time we turn to Lance and JB's response we are left wondering what the intent is behind all this. If the intent was to be credible, astute, and focus attention on doping or even to just do damage, there would have been no reason to go beyond Lance. There would be no evidence required in accussing Lance and JB, and the suspicion alone would have done damage. Instead, he went, quite literally after the entire system including people whose reputations, even if the accussations are true, are high enough to cast serious doubt of Landis's accussations so long as his word is not backed by proof.

I honestly cannot tell at this stage whether the intent is to caste light on the doping practices in the sport, simple revenge against a once loved system that screwed him, or both? I know the method he chose to air these details, especially given his past, have essentially shreaded his credibility. Perhaps he was hoping that hsi attack would shack loose a few branchs and the branches of evidence would fall from a sufficiently shaken truck?

Instead what we have is a lot, and I mean a lot, of accussations and no proof. However sensational Landis's attack, at the moment nothing he has done rises to the benchmark of a conviction. If the rumors of Landis's emails are true, and we will begin to see these emerge in the coming days, then I think it is time for someone to extend a helping hand to help him work through some very difficult issues.

Whether his accussations are true or not, the methodology he chose to air them castes serious doubt on his own truthfulness. Additionally, by casting such a large net, he has taken a huge risk as any one of them could stand up to take legal action against Landis. Whether true or not, Landis, more than anyone at this point, should understand that there is a system for doping violations and that system cannot produce a conviction based on finger pointing.

I think it is clear, even if the accussations are true, that Floyd is having some serious anger issues as evidenced by the sheer volume and timing of his accussations. Hopefully, there is somoeone out there that can bring Floyd back to the fold so to speak, but as it is, it appears these latest alegations are going to fade in a few weeks time.

The only change?

Floyd is now definitely a doper.

Not good.

 

[Galic Ho]

Susan's take on this saga?

My take. Cadel needs to keep his mouth closed. His associates have some questions to answer. Worst timing possible for a lot of riders. Zabriskie, Hincapie, Armstrong, Leipheimer and sadly, by association (he has nothing to do with it in a first hand encounter) Evans.

This will affect the GC in ToC. I expect Levi to crack. Maybe Big Z (though he fought hard today so it is like a 5% chance), but not as much as Levi will. Or maybe Levi wasn't one of the 7 DNA samples from the insulin syringes in the TdF. Maybe he thinks he's fine. Either way, at the ToC, Michael Rogers just received another bonus. His main rivals have been tarred by Floyd. Awesome news. Savour it Mick, savour it and go and win it. You deserve one. If not, Zabriskie, win it! Anyone but a RS rider.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

.... THe question is always: Can you get a conviction?....

That might be your question. Mine is will there be a trial by media? I can't think of a more worthy recipient than the teflon texan.

 

[thehog]

Good post.

I re-read the Landis email last night. What interested me more so now was not what was in the text but what it alluded and what was not in the text. On a couple of points Landis makes reference to the program of EPO, testosterone and transfusions and then states he road the Vuelta without testing positive. He makes the same references to the Tour. He then goes on to say about 2006. I’ve also read his statements to ESPN. I think what is he is eluding to is that yes he was on the full program but why did he get hit up for synthetic testosterone when he was using EPO etc. I think he suggesting that maybe outside forces influenced the result. Who knows. The other statement that interested me was there was lot more detail that he needs to put into intelligible form. Now if there were payments to UCI etc. and if its true that Armstrong/Bruyneel had made payments to Landis to keep him quite perhaps these transaction have been recorded by bank transfer etc. This is what the Feds will investigate. Not the actual doping use but the transfer of money between parties. That’s where they’ll get hanged. Joining the dots between Bruyneel, Duffy, Armstrong, Landis and the UCI via money transfers and not the dope. There’s legs in this.

Finally. Armstrong can’t ride the Tour now. Can you imagine him after the form he’s shown this year bombing off the front chasing down Contador on the Tourmalet. Everyone will call a rat now. Alternately if he drops 20 minutes on a stage everyone going to say how useless he is without the dope. Gila is Armstrongs true form.

Now that the federal agent involved in the BALCO case is looking into Landis' accusations, here is a possible scenario-

Some American riders get subpoenaed. I would venture to guess at the preliminary names-

Tyler Hamilton, Kevin Livingston, George Hincapie, Frankie Andreu, Jonathan Vaughters.

You do not want to lie to the feds. Just ask Marion Jones.

I am hoping that there will be a concerted effort to clear some of this up. If a couple of these guys present a united front, then the facade will come down and the charade finally comes to an end.

If not, if the people I mentioned are either still too scared of Armstrong or are concerned about future employment prospects, you may as well forget the whole thing.

But that is the driving force behind omerta, isn't it?

I have to say now coming forward that cycling needs to win this battle. Too many forces within the sport want to keep things as they are, simply because so many people have invested in Armstrong.

This investment has been made in different forms, from the unrepentant fanboy who truly believe that 7 Tour wins in a row with a revolving door of domestiques is at all possible without organized, in-house doping, to the people aligned with Armstrong on the business side who have made money cynically selling his back-form-the-dead, clean-living, honest-to-goodness hardest-working-man-in-cycling persona.

No fraud this big can survive the scrutiny if properly applied. Let's hope for the sake of cycling an outside agency not aligned with the UCI will try their best to get at the truth.

 

[Animal]

Allright, I have watched this for a few days now

Scrollwheel fodder.

 

[rolfrae]

Good post.
I think what is he is eluding to is that yes he was on the full program but why did he get hit up for synthetic testosterone when he was using EPO etc. I think he suggesting that maybe outside forces influenced the result...

...Finally. Armstrong can’t ride the Tour now. Can you imagine him after the form he’s shown this year bombing off the front chasing down Contador on the Tourmalet. Everyone will call a rat now. Alternately if he drops 20 minutes on a stage everyone going to say how useless he is without the dope. Gila is Armstrongs true form.

Re. your first point above, is this why so many riders who once rode for Lance and Johan ended up positive, despite the fact that they were doing the same things they'd done before and not been caught? And does it also explain why they denied so vehemently afterwards? They knew they were doing the same things as Lance and Johan's riders were doing, as they had done with them, yet suddenly they test positive. Because what? The UCI bribes weren't going through?

Re. Lance riding the Tour, you're spot on. He has just crashed out of his "major" build up race. So where's the form going to come from now? Tour De Suisse? A fridge in Girona? The video of him yesterday from the Radioshack car shows a man under pressure and not dealing with it at all well. The Tour would be a pressure cooker under normal circumstances but this year I think it would be unbearable for him.

 

[tubularglue]

i am curious how long Floyd has been working with the FDA ?

 

[Parrot23]

OK, you guys keep focusing on perjury, but that's not the only thing. Below is a listing from the FDA's web site regarding their jurisdiction.

OCI Investigative Jurisdiction
Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) and other related Acts
Title 21, United States Code, and related acts

Federal Anti-Tampering Act (FATA)
Title18, United States Code § 1365

And related violations of Title 18 United States Code, such as:
Title 18, USC § 287 - False, Fictitious or Fraudulent Claims
Title 18, USC § 371 - Conspiracy to Commit Offense or to Defraud the United States
Title 18, USC § 1001 - False Statements to the Government
Title 18, USC § 1035 - False Statements Relating to Health Care Matters
Title 18, USC § 1341 – Mail Fraud
Title 18, USC § 1343 – Wire Fraud
Title 18, USC § 1347 - Health Care fraud
Title 18, USC § 1505 - Obstruction of Proceedings before Departments /Agencies
Title 18, USC § 1518 - Obstruction of Criminal Investigation of Health Care Offenses
Title 18, USC § 2314 - Interstate Transportation of Stolen Property, or Articles used in Counterfeiting
Title 18, USC § 2315 - Sale or Receipt of stolen goods moved interstate
Title 18, USC § 2320 - Trafficking in Counterfeit Goods

LOL, now this is a list to cool the temp. in the Shack bus appreciably. Bet these guys are thinking real hard now.

So long for the "patsies" at the UCI, and welcome to the real world.

 

[rata de sentina]

heres some of the more important ones.

Good job, I know it was my suggestion but Mrs rata has requested I watch the futbol so I am unable to assist

 

[Anonymous]

Call me naive but I tend to believe Barry there.

Okay, you are naive.

 

[Parrot23]

Fatty McQuack's comments....

This made my day

 

[Black-Balled]

Yes indeed.

What Armstrong is saying that Landis had more credibility when lying. Now he's fessed up he has lost credibility?

I don't understand.

What is so tough? He is saying more people believed the story he had last time.

Did you believe he was clean up until this recent revelation?

 

[TRDean]

All very interesting. On the human side...I feel a little strange about all this. I mean as a human being who absolutely loves cycling I am happy that maybe all of this will come to something...but at the same time I feel very uncomfortable. Quite a weird state of mind....anyone else feel likewise?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Hog, when did CVdV make those comments you posted up-thread?

 

[Black-Balled]

GO LANCE!!! TdF 2010 will be epic:

Contador v Schleck v Armstrong

Hahaha! I will be pretty damn surprised to see Lance on the TDF start line. I'd like to see it, but it will be a sufferfest with or without him...and I only have to stay up late to witness it.

 

[Ripper]

I'm still a bit worried that this will not end well for Landis.