Landis letter re drug use in cycling

[hfer07]

She should have bought a Lazy Boy. I hear those are stand up couches that are willing to do a nickel or even a dime instead of rolling over on their owners..

Sorry.

LOL-I need to go to bed-can't even type

 

[Cal_Joe]

You're wrong. Neutrality is fine. But if you're not outraged by what's going on in cycling, you're not paying attention.

I have been outraged for years. This week is no different than many other episodes over the last 30+ years that I have been involved in cycling. Jeez, Festina, Puerto, and many episodes before that.

I hope expressing outrage in this thread does not mean picking sides in the current dustup. Read my previous post where I stated that as far as the comments from the current and former cyclists and governing bodies involved, I do not lend credence to any statements at this time, in fact I said "No One".

Expressing outrage is not something I feel is necessary. Per my previous posts, no one truly knows what is going on here.

 

[Cerberus]

Actually, 50% are dumber than the median, not the average.

IQ by definitions follows a bell curve distribution, so the average is the same as the median.

 

[Oldman]

Feds are eager to catch the big dogs & FLandis ain't one of them-the same situation happened when they caught Marion Jones-they went after the doping ring,found her coach & finally he gave her up. I wonder when the situation gets uglier, who's going to turn against who? will LA give up the Hog & his connections in exchange for a minor sentence?

The difference here is there is little that the riders have done that is going to cost them any time in the pokey; unless they perjure themselves and get caught lying under oath. Most of this will be a PR level bust costing LA & Co all credibility with the one group they care about: money paying sponsors. It could and shouldcost the UCI and USA Cycling some current and former staff for complicity. For those fans clinging to some misguided outrage; this is why everyone that cares about the sport wants light shed on it. Yes, many riders cheat or "are professional" in pro racer parlance but few completely pillage and compromise the system like this group has. Let other sports handle it with Congressional hearings, this may be the best cleansing we can expect.

 

[Julesa]

IQ by definitions follows a bell curve distribution, so the average is the same as the median.

so when you include the ones with the same IQ as the average
less than 50% are smarter than the average

 

[gjdavis60]

Both are liars - and both have 'credibility' issues - but this current issue is about which story is accurate, Lances or Floyd's.

It is a PR battle - however for the first time Lance is under scrutiny from the main stream media - and it appears to be a battle that Lance is losing.

Here is an excerpt from a New York Times pieceon the emails released by Lance earlier today.

To me, these emails indicate the pettiness, arrogance, and quite frankly stupidity of the people running and participating in pro cycling, and must make one wonder what else goes on. The implications of Landis' latest revelations combined with others that have come out over time indicate widespread, systemic unethical and illegal behavior throughout the sport, including:

- the improper/illegal acquisition and distribution of prescription drugs (numerous including EPO) and controlled substances (e.g. steroids which makes it a felony), and conspiracy to do same.
- blackmail
- bribery
- ???

This is the kind of thing that eventually may (and by some accounts in the press already has) pique the interest of law enforcement enough to begin an investigation. When law enforcement officials begin questioning potential witnesses and defendants, lies given in response to questions cease being PR and instead become criminal acts, themselves punishable by imprisonment. As has been pointed out before on this thread, Marion Jones was not convicted of using PEDs, but her admission to PED use was compelled via a criminal investigation. Were it not for law enforcement, Marion Jones would still have her Olympic medals and her picture on a Wheaties box. So much for WADA and the rest of the so-called "anti-doping" establishment.

What crimes an investigation might uncover could have less effect on pro cycling than other information that may come to light via testimony. The scope of what could be uncovered extends way beyond one or two riders or a DS, and could possibly expose the widespread tolerance, if not protection and promotion, of doping as an institution within pro cycling. I think we all suspect the whole sport is crooked all the way to the top, and I'm hoping Landis' revelations represent the tipping point that may expose it. But you're only going to break omerta and identify the full extent of the corruption if you have the ability to make people tell the truth, and as far as I'm concerned, only law enforcement can do that. Once the full dirty truth is revealed, regardless of whether anyone is convicted of anything, pro cycling will be forced to purge its ranks and recreate itself or it will die (which wouldn't bother me one bit). I've lost any illusions that the pro cycling community is willing or able to police itself. It may be entertainment to some, but it is not sport.

Pro cycling is dog racing, except with people.

 

[ProfTournesol]

IQ by definitions follows a bell curve distribution, so the average is the same as the median.

actually in this case it isn't the same as there's another hump at the lower end of the curve for people with an intellectual disability so >50% of people worldwide have an IQ below 100 (usual disclaimers about culture bias in testing, IQ being only one measure of intelligence etc.)

On topic, does anyone know who posted the leak? It's a bit like an Agatha Christie murder where everybody in the house has a motive.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

You're right it does make me think.....

Things like, how mnay usernames have you had on this site now, it must be well over 40

And do you have to get a new IP address or is the CN security not all that great?

Aerodynamics has now been permanently banned for violating a previous temporary as Aerodynamic. That name has been banned as well.

All users, please note that once you are banned temporarily, you will be banned permanently if you come back in violation.

Also, if we find a pattern of suspicious IP addresses in your postings, you will be banned.

Susan

 

[Mach Schnell]

Sooooooooooo, wassup with the photo of FL shaking hands with Pereiro in the '06 TDF??? Its in the FL timeline schpin. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/floyd-landis-timeline-tour-comeback-to-doping-confession/5484
Check it out, whats the photoshop face in the background on the Rabo rider??? Aliens? Weird

 

[rhubroma]

no.

i do hope that floyd's personal catharsis can be applied by the right people in the right way to unravel the gordian knot. history does not point that direction.

if floyd does not get some corroboration fast, with either another brave insider's testimony or some physical evidence, nothing will probably come from the ****storm. except maybe lance skipping the tour (which i didn't think he was gonna show up to anyway) and phil trying to cover his saddle sniffing tracks.

i just hope floyd comes out ok. and i hope others are right that lance will back down and let it all disappear.

Finally an intelligent post.

 

[Cerberus]

actually in this case it isn't the same as there's another hump at the lower end of the curve for people with an intellectual disability so >50% of people worldwide have an IQ below 100 (usual disclaimers about culture bias in testing, IQ being only one measure of intelligence etc.)

Actually it is true. As I said it's defined as having a bell curve distribution. Of cause there's lots of different IQ test, and not every single one corresponds to this, but the standard is that you calibrate the test in such a way that you get a bell curve distribution.

From wikipedia:
"the scoring of modern IQ tests such as the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale is now based on a projection of the subject's measured rank on the Gaussian bell curve with a centre value (average IQ) of 100, and a standard deviation of 15, although not all tests adhere to that standard deviation.".

On topic, does anyone know who posted the leak? It's a bit like an Agatha Christie murder where everybody in the house has a motive.

It's not known who leaked it.

 

[D Avoid]

Shwitter

Be like Lance and take it up with Shwitter

Every turd message is free.

Be flushed with excitement when you contact his ego directly.

No pain, no chain, splash out on it toaday.

Nobody takes the PI$$ out of Iaordhea.

U bend, we send.

Break your Toilet Duck.

If your message breaks up, it may have to be sent separately.

Remember , you now have 140 chances to get it Shwite.

 

[SpartacusRox]

You know, this question came up (in another context) last time I was bike shopping. My LBS sells Trek only. They are extraordinarily nice folks, and I wanted to both support them and, if possible, buy a bike actually made in America.

I equivocated for weeks thinking the Madone, made in Wisconsin, was the obvious choice. But I was going to be g*d damned if I supported Armstrong the doper, wife cheater, Sheryl Crow dating, childish zinger tweeting dumbass.

I kept asking myself, what the hell does Trek plan to do when Armstrong does (god willing) retire.

Just like modern corporate culture. Profits are measured in quarters, not years. So the management goes with the current money maker. Let future quarters figure themselves out.

Disappointing, but seems to be the reality.

Wow you need to take a chill pill, you were only buying a bike. I would hate to see you buying a house.

 

[D Avoid]

Firstly you didn't explain why you needed to make an ad hominen attack to make that point. But I'm absolutely gobsmacked that you're claiming Floyd came forward because he wants to improve doping controls. He could have done that at any time in the last four years - it's maddening that you would claim such a thing.

I know it's useful to see good motives in people that are helping a cause we want to fight, but there is a very good reason why the vast majority of people don't agree with you about Floyd's motives. He's not even ashamed of doping, he wrote book claiming he did not dope, he took millions of dollars in donations and casually lied all over the media to suit his own ends. If he could ride the ToC he probably wouldn't be saying anything. The only reason he is coming out now is because he no longer has any more legal avenues to pursue. C'mon, you can do better than this.

The sport is cleaning up already with the blood passport system, and what Floyd has said about avoiding controls is long known about - there is nothing new in the detail about any of it. It contributes nothing to fighting doping.

Please could you answer me why you want to rake back over a previous era and go on a witch hunt mainly against one rider? It serves no purpose in the first against doping and is extremely bad for cycling. You are intelligent enough to know this. So why?

You have no real idea as to the myriad of mindsets that this poor man is going through. We have a system in place, as always, where entire country's, led by half shwits, can murder hundreds of thousands of people because invasion is the answer. Why then would the ruling body of a sport like cycling feel any need to be fair and impartial, while handing out the browned envelopes. Previous eras contain the link between the doping of old and today and tomorrows winners, quite simple and unmissable when you look at BARNEY, Vaughters , Merckx, Kelly(well Jayses, I wooden know with any great certaintly), Cavendish's guru Zabel. Everybody knows, but if nobody goes , then there is no need to flush the evidence. Every body needs to go, but no one will leave:::: the door open so the next intake don't suffocate.

 

[D Avoid]

so when you include the ones with the same IQ as the average
less than 50% are smarter than the average

In the management of cycling(all aspects), it would seem to be nearer the tragic 100.

 

[SpartacusRox]

I like the call for hard evidence. What witnessing a crime with your own eyes is not hard evidence? We'd better re-write the constitution and international law whilst we at it because witness statement are now inadmissible in court. Everyone must have a photo of any crime taking place.

Oh please come on? Hard evidence. So tell me what is hard evidence? I don’t think you actually know. Is hard evidence a legal term?

Witnessing, or in this case it is better termed participating in a crime is first person evidence. It can be good evidence but relies almost totally upon the credibility of the witness, which is open to challenge of course and in this case there is no credibility. The "hard evidence" that I am referring to in this case would be some form of corroborating evidence that supports the accusers allegations. That could be other eye witnesses, actual material such as documentation, recordings, or photographs or admissions by the accused.

Like I have said, it remains to be seen if other witnesses will step forward to corroborate Floyd's story. Personally I wouldn't get too excited by the fact that the Feds are involved. Jurisdictionally they are severely limited in this type of case and will have little interest in what happened 8 years ago in Europe.

Hey, I have already been told that my opinion is wrong by Race and several of his mates. At the end of the day it is only my opinion but I have been involved in the legal system for many years and unless there is a lot more corroborative evidence this will go nowhere.

A grenade in a room someone termed Floyds letters? More like a small sparkler at the moment.

 

[barn yard]

Personally I wouldn't get too excited by the fact that the Feds are involved. Jurisdictionally they are severely limited in this type of case and will have little interest in what happened 8 years ago in Europe.

i think you are missing the fact that the feds wont be going into a courtroom to prove beyone reasonable doubt that person(s) X doped in a bike race. the feds couldnt care less about the integrity of some bike race in another country. what they do look for are things like money laundering, falsifying accounts, 'interesting' transfers of funds, tax fraud (associated with the things i just mentioned)... thats where people get nailed and go to jail. the fallout from this is the conclusion that person(s) X doped, that person(s) X bribed someone, etc.

 

[SpartacusRox]

EVERYBODY KNOWS

Everybody knows the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed

Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost

Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor the rich get rich
Thats how it goes...everybody knows

Everybody knows the boat is leaking
Everybody knows the Captain lied

Everybody taking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates

Everybody knows the deal is rotton
Old black Joe is still picking cotton
For your ribbons and bows

Thats how it goes, everybody knows..

Leonard Cohen

 

[wattage]

Oh the irony. It was UCI who for whatever reason wanted to bust Floyd at 2006 TDF. Now, 4 years later, the guy has nothing to lose, if he would still have his TDF win he would have kept his mouth shut. Now in the best case scenario Floyd will clean up the peloton and UCI nicely. So it was the UCI who put all this in motion basically. Kudos to you Floyd!

 

[SpartacusRox]

i think you are missing the fact that the feds wont be going into a courtroom to prove beyone reasonable doubt that person(s) X doped in a bike race. the feds couldnt care less about the integrity of some bike race in another country. what they do look for are things like money laundering, falsifying accounts, 'interesting' transfers of funds, tax fraud (associated with the things i just mentioned)... thats where people get nailed and go to jail. the fallout from this is the conclusion that person(s) X doped, that person(s) X bribed someone, etc.

Yeah I realise they will be looking at that I just don't think it will be found. There is a difference between forum post innuendo and collusion theory and actual hard evidence and an even greater leap from 'donations' to proving those 'donations' were in actual fact bribes.

 

[Kristian]

Will Landis hold an press conference today? And can someone give a quick summary of the Emails strongman released? Thanks

 

[SpartacusRox]

Will Landis hold an press conference today? And can someone give a quick summary of the Emails strongman released? Thanks

You can read them on the Radioshack website

 

[stefank]

EVERYBODY KNOWS

Everybody knows the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed

Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost

Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor the rich get rich
Thats how it goes...everybody knows

Everybody knows the boat is leaking
Everybody knows the Captain lied

Everybody taking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates

Everybody knows the deal is rotton
Old black Joe is still picking cotton
For your ribbons and bows

Thats how it goes, everybody knows..

Leonard Cohen

And I was lucky enough to hear him sing it live, just out of Adelaide right after the 2009 TDU. Now, back to the topic......

 

[SpartacusRox]

And I was lucky enough to hear him sing it live, just out of Adelaide right after the 2009 TDU. Now, back to the topic......

That was a summation of the topic!!

 

[D Avoid]

No more leaks

Unless you push the Shwitter sure prize button

All leaks are natural and will maintain a natural appearance

No strain, no stain(always read the label)

Heighten awareness while lightening the load.