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Landis threatened?

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Jun 19, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
I wonder if he will ask for a refund before sentencing, or if he understands that on a RICO charge, they freeze all assets?

You are beginning to bore me.

RICO? You're running off the rails a bit, here. Armstrong would have to be directly involved in drug trafficking or money laundering to get anywhere close to that charge.
No, he'll spend a ton fighting a government funded, politically motivated group of polished attorneys. These guys don't go for settlements if you're the big target. It will get expensive for all concerned before it's over. Anyone have any figures on what Clemens has spent/still spending?
 
Oldman said:
RICO? You're running off the rails a bit, here. Armstrong would have to be directly involved in drug trafficking or money laundering to get anywhere close to that charge.
No, he'll spend a ton fighting a government funded, politically motivated group of polished attorneys. These guys don't go for settlements if you're the big target. It will get expensive for all concerned before it's over. Anyone have any figures on what Clemens has spent/still spending?

You are missing the point here. While Roger Clemens bought and used PEDs (allegedly):rolleyes:, nobody has come forward to say that he was distributing them to the rest of the team.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Oldman said:
RICO? You're running off the rails a bit, here. Armstrong would have to be directly involved in drug trafficking or money laundering to get anywhere close to that charge.
No, he'll spend a ton fighting a government funded, politically motivated group of polished attorneys. These guys don't go for settlements if you're the big target. It will get expensive for all concerned before it's over. Anyone have any figures on what Clemens has spent/still spending?


Spend some time reading this (http://www.ricoact.com/ricoact/nutshell.asp#enterprise) while thinking about Tailwind and USPS....

The whisper from European connections are that more than enough corroboration is done.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
Spend some time reading this (http://www.ricoact.com/ricoact/nutshell.asp#enterprise) while thinking about Tailwind and USPS....

The whisper from European connections are that more than enough corroboration is done.

That would be the key. They'd have to prove the connections, purchases, etc. Same with Clemens...purchase for personal consumption shouldn't stand the RICO test. You would need to provide them for someone else or, in Clemens case; transport across state lines. That opens up an interesting situation for LA if stuff was obtained through internet purchases or could be shown as transported within the US. He wouldn't have been stupid enough to do that, would he?
 
Apr 28, 2009
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I don't think Armstrong will go to jail on this one, but he will face a stiff penalty in the $M and his name will be mud for most, except of course for some (see trolls) that will still pay money to hear him speak in lame 'conferences'.

I do think that he will spill the beans and some of the underlings will pay the price and go to jail however. I would be very worried if I were Lim or some of the soigneurs. Who probably moved the merchandise around? the soigneurs.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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this_is_edie said:
I don't think Armstrong will go to jail on this one, but he will face a stiff penalty in the $M and his name will be mud for most, except of course for some (see trolls) that will still pay money to hear him speak in lame 'conferences'.

I do think that he will spill the beans and some of the underlings will pay the price and go to jail however. I would be very worried if I were Lim or some of the soigneurs. Who probably moved the merchandise around? the soigneurs.

He was part owner. He directed the scheme with Weisel and Stapleton.

He's going to jail. This time, the heads roll at the top, as they were the primary beneficiaries.

If it goes RICO, they seize all assets, a tactic used to remove the financial ability to fight. That happens at some point, and it simply accelerates the ending.

Tell me how or why you think he won't go to jail?
 
May 23, 2010
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Colm.Murphy said:
He was part owner. He directed the scheme with Weisel and Stapleton.

He's going to jail. This time, the heads roll at the top, as they were the primary beneficiaries.

If it goes RICO, they seize all assets, a tactic used to remove the financial ability to fight. That happens at some point, and it simply accelerates the ending.

Tell me how or why you think he won't go to jail?

It feels like the feds are determined enough to take this through the indictment. But thereafter it gets riskier for the feds as well.

I agree with your logic - but there's always the uncertainty of jury trials that end up encouraging both sides to try to find a mutually acceptable plea bargain. What's the minimum penalty the prosecutors would accept for mail fraud / a RICO case?

Its hard to see Armstrong accepting a plea that involves doing time - in that case he'd try to push this out and opt to take his chances in a trial.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Tubeless said:
It feels like the feds are determined enough to take this through the indictment. But thereafter it gets riskier for the feds as well.

I agree with your logic - but there's always the uncertainty of jury trials that end up encouraging both sides to try to find a mutually acceptable plea bargain. What's the minimum penalty the prosecutors would accept for mail fraud / a RICO case?

Its hard to see Armstrong accepting a plea that involves doing time - in that case he'd try to push this out and opt to take his chances in a trial.

If they go to a Grand Jury the usual tactic is to get individuals to perjure themselves and the Jury hears the trial with no other role. That's a hard time offense. If he pleads to implicate bigger fish like Weisel (this guy has many enemies after the dot.com bust that he helped hype and sell worthless stock IPOs) or an organization like UCI (an organization that governs/sanctions US events) or USA Cycling; he'll walk. Unless his plea deal includes sealing that testimony the Civil court lawsuits will rain down on him. I know Colm. believes he will do time and many would wish it.
 
Oldman said:
Unless his plea deal includes sealing that testimony the Civil court lawsuits will rain down on him.

I'm a little fuzzy on this one. Even though the USPS is an Independant Agency of the federal government, it still operates as part of the executive branch. Would it not then fall under the auspices of the FOIA? Could federal grand jury testimony relating to the USPS be protected from disclosure under the FOIA?

I know there are exemptions, but none would appear on their face to apply:

Exemptions to the Freedom of Information Act
 
Feb 21, 2010
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MacRoadie said:
I'm a little fuzzy on this one. Even though the USPS is an Independant Agency of the federal governemnt, it still operates as part of the executive branch. Would it not then fall under the auspices of the FOIA? Could federal grand jury testimony relating to the USPS be protected from disclosure under the FOIA?

I know there are exemptions, but none would appear on their face to apply:

Exemptions to the Freedom of Information Act

It depends on all of the actions that might exist, and in what order they proceed (possibly concurrently?).

From the Velonews article with the legal expert, a Federal False Claims Act complaint has a specific procedure wrt submission under seal, response and so forth.

As a criminal fraud, perhaps even RICO, case, convening a Grand Jury to gather testimony would probably take place and be under seal, as in BALCO. At some point it would end up in public domain, though it might not be for 20 years. That it might give some riders a shield (there name would be known but not their testimony) from having to deal with USADA, if they had previously been queasy about speaking with them first.

The next month(s) are going to be such a distraction, might as well just park it on the internet and await the fireworks!
 
Jun 19, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
I'm a little fuzzy on this one. Even though the USPS is an Independant Agency of the federal government, it still operates as part of the executive branch. Would it not then fall under the auspices of the FOIA? Could federal grand jury testimony relating to the USPS be protected from disclosure under the FOIA?

I know there are exemptions, but none would appear on their face to apply:

Exemptions to the Freedom of Information Act

The lead prosecutor is given alot of leeway. Unless the sealed testimony would involve National security or something politically difficult it would be seen as the means to an end. LA couldn't escape a fine, for example were that to be part of a typical sentence. Not because a fine wouldn't be waivable but in a case of an unprofitable USPS it would seem politically tough to sell to the PA's superiors.
 
Colm.Murphy said:
As a criminal fraud, perhaps even RICO, case, convening a Grand Jury to gather testimony would probably take place and be under seal, as in BALCO. At some point it would end up in public domain, though it might not be for 20 years. That it might give some riders a shield (there name would be known but not their testimony) from having to deal with USADA, if they had previously been queasy about speaking with them first.

See, that's where I'm going to have to give it some more thought. A "typical" RICO case often relies on sealed testimony due to the nature of those whose testimony may be benefical to the prosecution of the case, and those being prosecuted. Witnesses are usually disinclined to testify against people who will likely cut limbs off or worse.

Ratting out the mob with the promise of federal protection is one thing, but exactly who would Armstrong's lawyers use to leverage protection for their client? What jeopardy does his testimony place Armstrong in? What bigger fish exists (within the jurisdiction of the PA)?

Maybe some of the other riders (say a Zabriskie or a Hincapie) could broker pleas and enjoy sealed testimony, but Armstrong?
 
Jun 19, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
See, that's where I'm going to have to give it some more thought. A "typical" RICO case often relies on sealed testimony due to the nature of those whose testimony may be benefical to the prosecution of the case, and those being prosecuted. Witnesses are usually disinclined to testify against people who will likely cut limbs off or worse.

Ratting out the mob with the promise of federal protection is one thing, but exactly who would Armstrong's lawyers use to leverage protection for their client? What jeopardy does his testimony place Armstrong in? What bigger fish exists (within the jurisdiction of the PA)?

Maybe some of the other riders (say a Zabriskie or a Hincapie) could broker pleas and enjoy sealed testimony, but Armstrong?

As I said: Weisel is a large profile stock brokerage principal that helped many tech IPOs launch only to watch them crash. I couldn't think of a more politically attractive target with some serious, behind the scenes enemies.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Colm.Murphy said:
He is also currently under SEC and and FIRA investigation: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-bonuses-suit-20100518,0,2366158.story

Digging into Weisel has been very enlightening.

Weisel is the true kingpin, the power behind the throne, who forged Armstrong into the sociopathic douchebag that he is today. Armstrong grew up idolizing J.R. Ewing, seeing him as an example of how to get what you want no matter what. In Weisel he met a real life version of the Dallas villian.
 

Jimmy Riddle

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Jun 10, 2010
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BroDeal said:
Weisel is the true kingpin, the power behind the throne, who forged Armstrong into the sociopathic douchebag that he is today. Armstrong grew up idolizing J.R. Ewing, seeing him as an example of how to get what you want no matter what. In Weisel he met a real life version of the Dallas villian.

Is this where he learnt his philanthropy?

Say what you like about LA, but he is in contact with people that are dying almost every day. I don't think a real sociapath would do that.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Jimmy Riddle said:
Is this where he learnt his philanthropy?

Say what you like about LA, but he is in contact with people that are dying almost every day. I don't think a real sociapath would do that.

What Dr. Michele is ill??

My thoughts and prayers are with the Ferrari family at this difficult time...
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Jimmy Riddle said:
Is this where he learnt his philanthropy?

Say what you like about LA, but he is in contact with people that are dying almost every day. I don't think a real sociapath would do that.

Some say they have heard he can heal by placing hands, can turn water to wine and is rumored to have the plan to solve the crisis in the Middle East.

All I have heard is that he can pedal his bike damn fast and apparently defrauded the US govt out of millions of dollars.

Sainthood...Sociopath...such a fine line.