Landis

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I often wonder how and why guys like Floyd and Tyler Hamilton are not spilling the beans as far as how they got into this mess and who else was involved.

knowing that their bad habits appeared to start while they were at USPS I wonder who might have a lot to lose if they ever started talking.

With rumours of Floyd hitting the bottle and Tyler suffering depression I wonder if they will ever tell all.

Although I understand they are both financially struggling, and there may be some wealthy interests with a strong motivation to ensure that they keep quiet.

Even if they did talk, I am sure we would only hear "who can believe a bitter jealous drunk / headcase who wasn't good enough to ride clean / didn't train hard enough / wasn't motivated" etc etc

 

[blackcat]

I often wonder how and why guys like Floyd and Tyler Hamilton are not spilling the beans as far as how they got into this mess and who else was involved.

knowing that their bad habits appeared to start while they were at USPS I wonder who might have a lot to lose if they ever started talking.

With rumours of Floyd hitting the bottle and Tyler suffering depression I wonder if they will ever tell all.

Although I understand they are both financially struggling, and there may be some wealthy interests with a strong motivation to ensure that they keep quiet.

Even if they did talk, I am sure we would only hear "who can believe a bitter jealous drunk / headcase who wasn't good enough to ride clean / didn't train hard enough / wasn't motivated" etc etc

I reckon there is a tipping point on Armstrong. It would only take one or two American champions, like Landis and Hamilton, to bring him down. It would kill his foundation if the media ran with it. IF. I could not see it getting traction like Barry Bonds or Marion Jones.

Oh, I reckon I was pertty harsh on Landis, feel conflicted whether an apology is in order, but if they wanted to go Lemond, Landis and Geoghagen that is, well, I do not think they can feel affronted.

But year, wash harsh. Just disgusted by the myth and spin, and jingoism. I wonder if Vaughters is at Eneco or if he has been run off.

 

[Race Radio]

I've heard quite a few rumours that Floyd is hitting the booze hard but haven't been able to substantiate it beyond hearsay.

Anyone?

Yeah, I have heard the same.....but to be fair Landis has always drank a lot of beer

 

[blackcat]

What do these people who are so pompous about morals think about that? Someone delighting in killing a cancer foundation that has helped millions of cancer patients around the world. I heard some of these cancer people have to take EPO as well - we'll soon put a stop to that! Cancer cheats!

there is research to the finding that there is a set pool of monies for charitable donations. So it is fungible. Livestrong out, another in. Plus Charity Navigator rate Livestrong poorly. You should have seen what the Hamilton foundation did with its money. Ran a few crits and cured MS.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I often wonder how and why guys like Floyd and Tyler Hamilton are not spilling the beans as far as how they got into this mess and who else was involved.

That's a good question, and I'm willing to bet both guys have considered it. If Hamilton is going to talk, it's not going to be until summer of 2012, that's when his gold medal will be safe. It might actually do Tyler some good to spill his guts, as I'm guessing the burden of being doped, caught, shamed has a lot to do with his depression.

Floyd, who knows. He went from the loftiest height, to the absolute bottom. He has very little left to lose when you think about it. He'd face the wrath of Armstrong and his armada of fans and defenders if he told the truth that we all suspect. But there's not a lot left that they can do to him? He lost everything already. Same with Tyler.

But still, the motivation has to be there. I would be extremely bitter if I were either of these guys and knew that the majority of other riders were doped, and got away with it, while you had your life ruined and they bask in glory. So maybe they will talk. I mean, think about it, last I heard Floyd is sleeping on a lot of people's couches. Now look at Lance's houses. I'd be bitter too.

I'm guessing BC brings up a good point. Even if either of these guys went for the jugular and wrote a tell-all book along the lines of Willy Voet, two possible things might happen: First, they'd be immediately smeared. The LA forces (presuming they name USPS/LA), and forces of cycling would attack them with full force. Saying they are liars, desperate to sell books, desperate to get their face back in the media. And we'd all be reminded they were caught cheating, they were the dopers, who lied about it, and thus are lying again. The other thing is that with all this, the mainstream press may not cover it much at all. They also could face massive lawsuits, along the lines of Armstrong suing David Walsh. But then again, their lives are ruined, so a lawsuit couldn't do much more damage.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

What do these people who are so pompous about morals think about that? Someone delighting in killing a cancer foundation that has helped millions of cancer patients around the world. I heard some of these cancer people have to take EPO as well - we'll soon put a stop to that! Cancer cheats!

Now a new one:

you can't try to prove Armstrong is a cheat and a liar as cancer charities will suffer and more people will die. That is immoral and wicked.

 

[Jonathan]

What do these people who are so pompous about morals think about that? Someone delighting in killing a cancer foundation that has helped millions of cancer patients around the world. I heard some of these cancer people have to take EPO as well - we'll soon put a stop to that! Cancer cheats!

Do you think it would be a good thing if positives were suppressed to save a charity foundation?

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

two possible things might happen: First, they'd be immediately smeared. The LA forces (presuming they name USPS/LA), and forces of cycling would attack them with full force. Saying they are liars, desperate to sell books, desperate to get their face back in the media. And we'd all be reminded they were caught cheating, they were the dopers, who lied about it, and thus are lying again. The other thing is that with all this, the mainstream press may not cover it much at all. They also could face massive lawsuits, along the lines of Armstrong suing David Walsh. But then again, their lives are ruined, so a lawsuit couldn't do much more damage.

This is the most depressing thing about the Lance Legend is that those with nothing to gain and everything to lose are painted as greedy publicity seeking fantasists.....while an extremely wealthy and highly revered man, whose reputation, achievements and integrity define him, somehow would have no reason to lie about his past.

 

[Jonathan]

Do you think it would be a good thing to want to shut down Armstrong's charity simply because you don't like him personally?

I wasn't asking specifically about Armstrong, but about the ethical dilemma; what do you think is more important?

As far as Armstrong specifically is concerned, I honestly don't want to see him go down all the way. If he tests positive now, it'll be like Johan Museeuw and he'll just retire. The foundations would not, I think, suffer that much. If, however, it was proven that all his Tours were won on doping, it would be disastrous on a big scale for everything connected to cycling. Cancer research funding has thankfully other options; you can always ask mom to make some lasagna or something. So again, that might be less disastrous than it appears.

But regardless of my feelings about Armstrong, I can live with things as they are.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Do you think it would be a good thing to want to shut down Armstrong's charity simply because you don't like him personally?

Of course not.

But who is saying the primary reason, or any reason at all, is because "you don't like him personally"? Though I know a lot of Lance fans think that's all there is to it, I don't know of anyone that thinks that way.

A lot of people would like to see attention focused on Lance's doping, upholding of the omerta, and whatever happens to Livestrong is secondary to that.

 

[Jonathan]

On the contrary, that is precisely the opposite of what most of his critics say. When confronted with the wide spread doping in cycling, they then change the issue to Armstrong's personality and how many girlfiends he has had. That's why they don't like him, they say. They've admitted it's got nothing really to do with doping.

I've never seen that and certainly not as a majority view. Can you give a few links that make it credible that that is the way 'most of his critics' construct their arguments against him?

 

[papisimo98]

His results clearly scream of someone who is off the sauce for sure. Just to put it out there, I believe he doped for sure, not going to question it.
BUT....as for his extremely poor outings this year: maybe the hip is a bigger problem than he thought it'd be.
I fractured my femoral neck out training in 2007(i had surgery and 3 screws put in). At the time I was a very competitive Semi Pro mtn biker on the US circuit. After 3 months of rehab and a whole off season of really hard training(probably the hardest i've ever trained) the 08 race season rolled around and I got KILLED! I don't know if my surgery was more invasive than Landis' resurfacing but my legs(or leg) didn't have it. Guys who I was killing were just pummeling me. We're talking guys that would come in 10 minutes behind were beating me by 5 minutes. It was demoralizing to be honest.
Just putting it out there is all. Only now(over 2 years since the break) do I feel the power and speed that I had before the accident. My leg finally has regained all the muscles in the rear and hip area.
So even though Landis may dismiss the surgery let me tell you IT IS a big deal.
Look at what happened to Pereiro this year. Same thing as me. No more get up and go in the legs. It really sucks.

 

[Jonathan]

I'm not going through the threads for you but there are plenty.

Sorry but I really haven't seen them. You say that most critics of Armstrong say his doping habits should receive more attention because of his personality and his girlfriends and not because of doping itself. Those critics would be making quite a ridiculous statement, and if they are the majority, that is interesting. So where are they?

 

[Eva Maria]

It was widely discussed on here just a day or two ago. I'm not spending hours going back through threads just to prove this point to you. Let people deny it if they now don't believe this.

Update. Read the Betsy Audreu appreciate society thread.

As usual you cannot back up your statements

 

[Jonathan]

It was widely discussed on here just a day or two ago. I'm not spending hours going back through threads just to prove this point to you. Let people deny it if they now don't believe this.

Update. Read the Betsy Audreu appreciate society thread.

While I am not sure how you are weighing different morals to present a certain view of the not-too-sacred truth here, i will believe there is such a thread, but one thread on a forum is a far cry from 'most of his critics'.

 

[elapid]

I wasn't asking specifically about Armstrong, but about the ethical dilemma; what do you think is more important?

As far as Armstrong specifically is concerned, I honestly don't want to see him go down all the way. If he tests positive now, it'll be like Johan Museeuw and he'll just retire. The foundations would not, I think, suffer that much. If, however, it was proven that all his Tours were won on doping, it would be disastrous on a big scale for everything connected to cycling. Cancer research funding has thankfully other options; you can always ask mom to make some lasagna or something. So again, that might be less disastrous than it appears.

But regardless of my feelings about Armstrong, I can live with things as they are.

Agree. DiLuca's positive results have not damaged his fund raising for the Italian earth quake victims. Lance's stance on cancer, which is not cancer research BTW, is well known and that legacy will continue regardless of his personal characteristics or whether or not he tests positive to PEDs.

 

[131313]

If I were a pro racing in Utah today (and I personally know many who are), I'd be sick seeing those guys go 1-2.

yes and yes