Language discussion thread

[The Hitch]

In Polish prefixes are very important, e.g. from robic - to do, you get zarobic - earn, dorobic - to gain extra income, rozrobic - to misbehave etc.

rozrobic? What halfslavic pagan language were you tricked into

To misbehave is "rozrabiac".

BTW, with the prefixes, would you say there is a difference between "skończył" and "zakończył".

And would you say wchodze do "domku" or do "domka"?

 

[Tank Engine]

rozrobic? What halfslavic pagan language were you tricked into

To misbehave is "rozrabiac". [\QUOTE]

OK. Robic is the "niedokonany" form, while "Zarobic" is the "dokonany" form. I guess I was getting carried away, because you wouldn't use a "niedokonany" form for "rozrabiac".

BTW, with the prefixes, would you say there is a difference between "skończył" and "zakończył".

I would say e.g. skonczyc szkole (graduate from school) or to say I have finished something. If I was stressing the effect of something I'd use zakonczyc, i.e "to zakonczylo smiercia"

And would you say wchodze do "domku" or do "domka"?

Do domu, bo jest wystarczajacy duzy.

 

[The Hitch]

Do domu, bo jest wystarczajacy duzy.

Right. But what if its a little hut not a house

would you say "do domku" or "do domka"

 

[DenisMenchov]

I kinda understand Polish. For exapmle novi rekord skocni (don't know how to spell it) on Polish is very similar to novi rekord skakaonice on Serbian. Also when I was on vacations I could undestand Polish and Slovak people the best, but not Czech. Do you know why?

 

[El Pistolero]

What's with the hate of speaking French (I'm assuming you are from Flanders)?

Ever since Belgium was created in 1830 the Walloons held the upper hand in our country because, as you may know, Wallonia was the first industrialized region of Continental Europe. Since then they have tried to impose the French language on Flanders. Dutch, or Flemish if you will, was treated as a second rate language. They were and still are hypocrites: they want to protect the French speaking people in Flanders, but they don't tolerate Dutch speaking people in Wallonia. The university of Gent was only vernederlandst during the Interbellum. Yes, a Dutch speaking city with a French speaking University.

They also keep coming to Flanders without wanting to learn Dutch. Brussels, once a Dutch speaking city, now a Francophone stronghold. And they're slowly turning the gemeentes near Brussels into French speaking zones(the whole Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde dilemma). They want special language rights in Flanders... I have a better proposal for Walloons who don't want to learn Dutch if they live in Flanders:

The picture is at a protest in Leuven where they wanted a Dutch speaking university instead of a Dutch-French one. So the Walloons got "kicked" out and created a new city over the language border: Louvain la Neuve.

 

[The Hitch]

I kinda understand Polish. For exapmle novi rekord skocni (don't know how to spell it) on Polish is very similar to novi rekord skakaonice on Serbian. Also when I was on vacations I could undestand Polish and Slovak people the best, but not Czech. Do you know why?

Im guessing youve been watching the 4 hills.

Its "nowy" though.

 

[El Pistolero]

I kinda understand Polish. For exapmle novi rekord skocni (don't know how to spell it) on Polish is very similar to novi rekord skakaonice on Serbian. Also when I was on vacations I could undestand Polish and Slovak people the best, but not Czech. Do you know why?

How's your Croatian?

 

[hrotha]

The university of Gent was only vernederlandst during the Interbellum. Yes, a Dutch speaking city with a French speaking University.

The horror!

Sounds to me like both sides have silly nationalist issues.

 

[El Pistolero]

The horror!

Sounds to me like both sides have silly nationalist issues.

Do you want a French university even though every single student there speaks Spanish?

Yeah, the horror. If you call that a silly issue than I don't know what a serious issue is in a country. It eliminated every single Dutch speaking person from a decent job for more than a century.

After WWI the Flemish got spit on by the Walloons(elites) and politically eliminated once again even though many Flemish people died to defend Belgium. You know why? Because a very small minority collaborated with the Germans. And you know why they did collaborate? Well, one of the reasons was because they wanted a Dutch university in Gent instead of a French one(and because Flemish people got treated like crap in the army by the French speaking staff).

For most of the 19th and 20th century Flemish people were treated like second rate citizens.

Walloons aren't nationalistic, there's not really a Walloon national identity. The Flemish national identity is much more developed. Bart de Wever, leader of the Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie, gets around 40% of the votes in polls.

In reality, Flemish people are a bunch of pussies who rarely retaliate and defend themselves. It has to be said... How else can you form a government without the biggest Flemish party and with a French prime minister who can't even speak Dutch.

 

[Tank Engine]

Right. But what if its a little hut not a house

would you say "do domku" or "do domka"

Neither, I'd say "do chaty".

Why do I have the feeling that this is the sort of thing that Miodek would explain why a large proportion of Poles get this wrong, like my ex saying "tatowi"?

 

[The Hitch]

Neither, I'd say "do chaty".

Why do I have the feeling that this is the sort of thing that Miodek would explain why a large proportion of Poles get this wrong, like my ex saying "tatowi"?

nah, its just I don't know the answer. Whenever I ask people in Poland they argue amongst each-other as to what the answer is.

 

[hrotha]

Do you want a French university even though every single student there speaks Spanish?

Yes. There's also English-language education and people find it a good idea.

Of course, Spanish isn't "threatened" by French in any way, so I'll just mention McGill University in Montreal, which is more relevant here.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes. There's also English-language education and people find it a good idea.

Of course, Spanish isn't "threatened" by French in any way, so I'll just mention McGill University in Montreal, which is more relevant here.

We're not talking about language educations here. Obviously you can still study all kinds of languages in the university of Gent. That's not what I'm talking about I'm afraid.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

We're not talking about language educations here. Obviously you can still study all kinds of languages in the university of Gent. That's not what I'm talking about I'm afraid.

Hrotha isn't talking about learning languages or studying them. He's talking about anglophone places of study. There are quite a few of these in Spain.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Hrotha isn't talking about learning languages or studying them. He's talking about anglophone places of study. There are quite a few of these in Spain.

The grand poobah of Languages has arrived! Welcome.

 

[El Pistolero]

Hrotha isn't talking about learning languages or studying them. He's talking about anglophone places of study. There are quite a few of these in Spain.

There were no Dutch universities in Belgium in the 1930s

Like I said, English is not being forced upon Spanish people in that example, French was being forced upon Flemish people for a large part of Belgium's history. Just like Franco tried to impose Castilian on all of Spain.

 

[hrotha]

There were no Dutch universities in Belgium in the 1930s

Like I said, English is not being forced upon Spanish people in that example, French was being forced upon Flemish people for a large part of Belgium's history. Just like Franco tried to impose Castilian on all of Spain.

And now there are, and the situation has been greatly normalized. Again, what's the problem?

As for your edited post, that's why I brought up McGill University.
(Yes I was indeed referring to Anglophone places of study)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There were no Dutch universities in Belgium in the 1930s

Like I said, English is not being forced upon Spanish people in that example, French was being forced upon Flemish people for a large part of Belgium's history. Just like Franco tried to impose Castilian on all of Spain.

The cases aren't the same, no, but when hrotha explains that he is not against places that use English as the language of instruction, this is not the same as your mentioning the ability to study or learn languages other than French at the University of Gent.

The historical cases of why the two areas are using languages other than the local language as a medium of instruction are different, and merit discussion on different terms, but the way you expressed that difference implied you were judging the differences inaccurately.

 

[El Pistolero]

And now there are, and the situation has been greatly normalized. Again, what's the problem?

(Yes I was indeed referring to Anglophone places of study)

Now the problem is different(it might be normalized in Spain, but it is not in Belgium):

French speaking Belgians are spreading out all around Brussels in nearby Flemish towns. They want special language rights in those towns because they can't be arsed to learn Dutch. For example, they want to be able to vote on Walloon political parties, but in order for them to do that they would need to increase the electoral district of het Brussels-Hoofdstedelijk Gewest(where you can vote for both Flemish and Walloon political parties) which the majority of the Flemish people in those towns don't want. And this year they finally seperated Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde electoral district, but at a tremendous cost. Even more money from Flanders flows to Wallonia now...

The Walloons form a majority in this new government even though there are only 3 million of them compared to 6 million Flemish people.

Now you also know why I'm such a big fan of Gilbert.

 

[craig1985]

Ever since Belgium was created in 1830 the Walloons held the upper hand in our country because, as you may know, Wallonia was the first industrialized region of Continental Europe. Since then they have tried to impose the French language on Flanders. Dutch, or Flemish if you will, was treated as a second rate language. They were and still are hypocrites: they want to protect the French speaking people in Flanders, but they don't tolerate Dutch speaking people in Wallonia. The university of Gent was only vernederlandst during the Interbellum. Yes, a Dutch speaking city with a French speaking University.

They also keep coming to Flanders without wanting to learn Dutch. Brussels, once a Dutch speaking city, now a Francophone stronghold. And they're slowly turning the gemeentes near Brussels into French speaking zones(the whole Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde dilemma). They want special language rights in Flanders... I have a better proposal for Walloons who don't want to learn Dutch if they live in Flanders:

The picture is at a protest in Leuven where they wanted a Dutch speaking university instead of a Dutch-French one. So the Walloons got "kicked" out and created a new city over the language border: Louvain la Neuve.

I get the impression that a lot of people would be happy if Flanders and Wallonia became independent countries. I remember reading Cycle Sport magazine on their guide to watching the cobbled Classics in Belgium (like RVV) and they said if you go and want to buy a Lion of Flanders flag make sure it doesn't have the red tips on the flag unless you want to get into some awkward political debates with the locals.

Of all the European countries on the continent, I've found Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania to be the easiest to travel through as an English speaker as a lot of people do speak English and speak it very well. It was a shock visiting Poland and finding barely anybody who could speak English in Warsaw. I'm adaptable though and I try pick up bits of the local language as I go as I don't expect people to be fluent in English just for my convenience. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who comes to Australia and doesn't speak any form of English is going to have real problems, unless they have somebody who can translate for them.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I get the impression that a lot of people would be happy if Flanders and Wallonia became independent countries. I remember reading Cycle Sport magazine on their guide to watching the cobbled Classics in Belgium (like RVV) and they said if you go and want to buy a Lion of Flanders flag make sure it doesn't have the red tips on the flag unless you want to get into some awkward political debates with the locals.

Of all the European countries on the continent, I've found Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania to be the easiest to travel through as an English speaker as a lot of people do speak English and speak it very well. It was a shock visiting Poland and finding barely anybody who could speak English in Warsaw. I'm adaptable though and I try pick up bits of the local language as I go as I don't expect people to be fluent in English just for my convenience. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who comes to Australia and doesn't speak any form of English is going to have real problems, unless they have somebody who can translate for them.

For a 'multi-cultural society', we certainly do not understand many languages. It is a shame really.

 

[El Pistolero]

The cases aren't the same, no, but when hrotha explains that he is not against places that use English as the language of instruction, this is not the same as your mentioning the ability to study or learn languages other than French at the University of Gent.

The historical cases of why the two areas are using languages other than the local language as a medium of instruction are different, and merit discussion on different terms, but the way you expressed that difference implied you were judging the differences inaccurately.

Neither am I, as long as there are substitutes and not a monopoly of one language. That was the whole point I was making and don't see how Hrorta's example was relevant. If a Fleming wants to go to a French university then who am I to say no to that? Just go to Brussels or Wallonia and you find what you seek.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Lots of interesting stuff here! Thanks to El P for some details of Belgian history that I wasn't aware of. It's easy to see why linguistic issues in Belgium become politicized so quickly.

I have a question for the many linguists here who use or know languages that I don't - I am fluent in English, Dutch and German; my French gets me through emergencies and I understand some Spanish and Italian without speaking either language. What I'd like to know is this: - does any other language have a tradition of swearing using diseases or sicknesses that are wished upon another?

Now, this may sound like a strange question to non-Dutchies, but the sad fact is that the Dutch language is the only one that I am familiar with where people wish things like cancer/typhus/consumption or the plague on one another in common expressions of swearing. The habitual use of the word 'cancer' as an epithet is something that has bothered me from the day I first came here, and I have refused as a matter of principle to ever swear with Dutch diseases-related expressions. The standard English terms work well enough for me.

 

[boomcie]

@Craig
Seriously? In my experience lithuanian people suck at speaking english. They weren't as terrible as the people in Istanbul for instance, but for European standards they sucked pretty bad as well.

And i have spoken to a lot of lithuanian people, inside and outside of their country. So my sample is prety large.

 

[El Pistolero]

For a 'multi-cultural society', we certainly do not understand many languages. It is a shame really.

You can't blame the Australians for that though - living on a separate continent they don't come into contact with other languages so often.

What do Aboriginals speak anyway besides English? Or has their language not survived?