Le Tour 2018 stage 10: Annecy > Le Grand-Bornand 158,5 km

[May0maniac]

Erik Zabel giving a bottle to Bennati:

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

They were really moving it on the Colombiere. Not only did Martin set a new record all of the lead group were inside the old one. And that’s with a headwind. It’s not really surprising that nobody attacked except Martin (who knows he can do an anaerobic effort better than any of the others except Valverde).

Thanks for the info. Interesting. Dan Martin amazes me after his massive crash the other day I thought he would withdraw for sure.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Erik Zabel giving a bottle to Bennati:

Mega cool picture!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

It's been this way for most all of the post-doping era.

What year would you say that this era began?

The post-doping era began on July 11th 2008 and ended on September 9th 2008.

September 9th: Armstrong return announced?
July 11th: no idea

Manuel Beltrán tested positive for EPO at the Tour. No idea why this should be the marker, though.

CERA test unveiled. The test was kept secret and none of the teams or riders knew it was testable until the 2008 Tour positives began.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Valverde distanced a bit at the top but got back on before descent.

Let's hope this shuts up the Valverde Tour winner believers.... He really isn't enough climber

Yeah, we have all hyped Valverde up to win the Tour... yes, we havent done that.

1) That was last year and yes, that was without a single doubt in my mind his biggest chance to win the Tour. He was an absolute monster and the level in that Tour was overall pretty low.

2) His chain dropped. I thought to myself immediately when he sprinted up that it was a mech since it looked like one of the umpteenths time he humilated everyone on Mur de Huy. Surely enough, it was a mech. I'd assume Valverde is not as strong as last year, but who knows.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Yeah I didn't know his chain dropped so it was a stupid comment. Still I don't believe for a minute he can win the Tour. Podium if he's really lucky.

 

[Valv.Piti]

And when a rider who has won a pretty insane amount of MTFs since 2017 isn't a climber (Yes, against Froome, Contador, and Bernal among others), I don't know who is....

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

Erik Zabel giving a bottle to Bennati:

Mega cool picture!

How is Zabel affiliated with Movistar? Through Canyon?
He doesn't have an actual role with that team, does he?

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Erik Zabel giving a bottle to Bennati:

Mega cool picture!

How is Zabel affiliated with Movistar? Through Canyon?
He doesn't have an actual role with that team, does he?

I think it's just through Canyon.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Thanks

 

[Blanco]

Re:

And when a rider who has won a pretty insane amount of MTFs since 2017 isn't a climber (Yes, against Froome, Contador, and Bernal among others), I don't know who is....

He was a climber since day one of his career, and he still is!
Guy who beat Armstrong, Heras, Contador, Froome is not enough climber :surprised:
Guy who won in Courchevel, Morredero, Ventoux, Collada de la Gallina, Peyragudes is not enough climber

Who the hell is a climber then?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

And when a rider who has won a pretty insane amount of MTFs since 2017 isn't a climber (Yes, against Froome, Contador, and Bernal among others), I don't know who is....

He was a climber since day one of his career, and he still is!
Guy who beat Armstrong, Heras, Contador, Froome is not enough climber :surprised:
Guy who won in Courchevel, Morredero, Ventoux, Collada de la Gallina, Peyragudes is not enough climber

Who the hell is a climber then?

I think many people don't think he is a real climber simply because he is awesome at pretty much anything else on a bike. Had he only been able to climb, he would obviously be one of the best climbers in the peloton.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

We need a Simon Yates to animate the race.

After his major crack riders would be even more afraid of doing that.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

We need a Simon Yates to animate the race.

After his major crack riders would be even more afraid of doing that.

Adam Yates is practically the same rider, yet he is completely opposite of his brother in this aspect..

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

We need a Simon Yates to animate the race.

After his major crack riders would be even more afraid of doing that.

Adam Yates is practically the same rider, yet he is completely opposite of his brother in this aspect..

In fairness, he won San Sebastián solo. He also memorably had the flame rouge inflatable collapse on his head while he was leading a Tour stage solo. He’s no Meintjes, he just hasn’t often been in a GT situation where he was good enough to attack the favourites.

I’d prefer if everyone who finds themselves the fifth or seventh or whatever best climber in a race treated that as an indication that they can only win by attacking. But the only guy who actually does respond like that is Dan Martin and the main result is that Martin has never finished a GT better than 6th.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Fuglsang looked on the verge of cracking, on the final few meters of the last climb.

But if this was his usual "off day, on the first day of serious climbing", that went rather well

Incidentally, Riis said in an interview during the stage, that he had heard Fuglsang spent 2 hours on a tough climb during the rest day, because he was aware of his usual "starting problems" in the tall mountains, and wanted to prepare his climbing legs.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

We need a Simon Yates to animate the race.

After his major crack riders would be even more afraid of doing that.

When neither Nibali, Bardet or Valverde are animating the race, nobody is going anywhere.

I think every DS, outside of SKYs, had said "we have 2 more tough days coming, with better attacking ground, we only counter today, if someone important goes".

SKY: Dominating performance..... when the last domestique from other teams dropped off (I think it was actually Hansen from Astana, but might have missed a couple?), Froome still had 4 guys with him.

The only way Froome does not win this tour, is if he crashes, or if he goes completely empty week 3, doing his 5th GT in a row.

Has any GC contender in recent memory done that btw? - 5 GTs in a row, with any kind of success?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Probably nearest would be Carlos Sastre:
21st, 2005 Tour (essentially assisting Basso)
2nd, 2005 Vuelta
43rd, 2006 Giro (again, Basso leading)
3rd, 2006 Tour (originally 4th of course)
4th, 2006 Vuelta

and Alejandro Valverde:
3rd, 2015 Tour
7th, 2015 Vuelta
3rd, 2016 Giro
6th, 2016 Tour
12th, 2016 Vuelta (supporting Quintana)

 

[del1962]

Its only his 4th in a row

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

We need a Simon Yates to animate the race.

After his major crack riders would be even more afraid of doing that.

Adam Yates is practically the same rider, yet he is completely opposite of his brother in this aspect..

In fairness, he won San Sebastián solo. He also memorably had the flame rouge inflatable collapse on his head while he was leading a Tour stage solo. He’s no Meintjes, he just hasn’t often been in a GT situation where he was good enough to attack the favourites.

I’d prefer if everyone who finds themselves the fifth or seventh or whatever best climber in a race treated that as an indication that they can only win by attacking. But the only guy who actually does respond like that is Dan Martin and the main result is that Martin has never finished a GT better than 6th.

He didn't lead the stage - Cummings had already won it and GVA had defended his yellow jersey after almost having climbed with Nibali in the break.

But I agree - he is definitely not a Meintjes. In this year's Tirreno he also won a stage very emphatically.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re:

Its only his 4th in a row

LOL - sorry man - 4th - anyway, thanks for the suggestions, without checking my damn math

I'm still very curious to see, if he can actually make it.

They are even talking about him possibly riding the Vuelta.... which to me is crazy talk, with worlds and Lombardia coming up just after.

I still believe he will crash physically week 3, because it should not be humanly possible, to ride podium GCs, in 4 GTs in a row..... especially with the 4th race being the tour, where the competition is fiercer than ever, with multiple in-form rivals.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Its only his 4th in a row

LOL - sorry man - 4th - anyway, thanks for the suggestions, without checking my damn math

I'm still very curious to see, if he can actually make it.

They are even talking about him possibly riding the Vuelta.... which to me is crazy talk, with worlds and Lombardia coming up just after.

I still believe he will crash physically week 3, because it should not be humanly possible, to ride podium GCs, in 4 GTs in a row..... especially in a 4th race being the tour, where the competition is fiercer than ever, with multiple in-form rivals.

I really don't hope it was your math that failed you :lol:

"Hmm, four times one..... Five!!"

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

movingtarget - more unnecessary dogpiling on Cobo. El Bisonte was a pretty good espoir in Spain, had some prospects, built up through 26 and 27, handicapped by the Saunier Duval withdrawal of course, and even with next to no support on Fuji-Servetto managed a Vuelta top 10 in 2009. There are more factors at play with him due to both his team association history and his psychological history too, as we all know.

Dekker_Tifosi: That 2007 Giro was kind of won by Nibali's teammate though - team roles play a lot of the part, after all on paper Nairo Quintana's 36th in the 2012 is far less impressive than him being the top climber for Movistar and dragging Valverde around through week 3.

Sky_Bot: Unzué is surprisingly bothered by the team classification. Lord knows why other than place of car in cavalcade.

yaco: in fairness though, the Tour has started giving out some pretty ordinary HCs. At 6km in length I'm not sure about this one as a 'legit' HC. It's certainly no Madeleine.

Cobo had next to no results in his first 3 years as a pro. Is this now called "having some prospects"?

And next to no support in the Vuelta is not supported by facts. In every difficult stage except the one he won, there was at least 1 Fuji rider within 90 seconds of Cobo at the finish.

We all know that you like Cobo for whatever reason, but maybe a more factual discussion would be in order next time?

He was one of the top U23s in Spain in 2003, and in 2004 he got injured in his very first pro race, at the Tour of Qatar, and hardly raced. In 2006 his head wasn't in it and he tried to quit the sport only for Matxín to talk him out of it. In fairness, looking back at the 2009 Fuji-Servetto lineup at the Vuelta it's a fair bit stronger than I remember it being, there's a fair few strong riders, albeit often very early in careers so they were far from polished. Still, by the end of it the only reliable hand he had was David de la Fuente, and the two of them have long since been a double act.

The problem with Cobo is that making a definitive judgement on him is nigh on impossible because of that psychological background. While there's plenty of obvious reasons for discussion of him to take a Clinic turn, he simultaneously doesn't have anything against his name at all, and while his ability to ride competitively as a pro fluctuates wildly (in 2010 he couldn't finish even the most basic of races, in 2011 he won a Grand Tour), his psychological history plays a large role in that so that judging what he is or isn't capable of is nigh on impossible.

Being born in February, I guess he would have been among the oldest U23 riders in 2003 if I remember the rules correctly, so I am not sure how much merit that has.

In 2004 Cobo had at least 40 race days by my count. Not a lot, but a reasonable number for a neo-pro not riding any GTs and I would not use words "hardly raced" to describe his year.

And making a judgement is not nigh on impossible. The only previous day that he showed the level needed to win a GT was when his team ran into a clinic problem. A rider with an actual ability to win a GT would show it on more than 1 day in nearly 7 seasons even with issues that he might have had. The best Cobo prior to that Vuelta did have the level to be in the bottom of the first 10 on GT GC, but as you quite well know, it's a long way from there to an actual GT win.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

Its only his 4th in a row

LOL - sorry man - 4th - anyway, thanks for the suggestions, without checking my damn math

I'm still very curious to see, if he can actually make it.

They are even talking about him possibly riding the Vuelta.... which to me is crazy talk, with worlds and Lombardia coming up just after.

I still believe he will crash physically week 3, because it should not be humanly possible, to ride podium GCs, in 4 GTs in a row..... especially in a 4th race being the tour, where the competition is fiercer than ever, with multiple in-form rivals.

I really don't hope it was your math that failed you :lol:

"Hmm, four times one..... Five!!"

LOL - nope - didn't really think about it, and thought I read 5 somewhere else

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, there was a perfect storm of factors that led to that 2011 Vuelta win too. It's not like he rocked up and was just riding like Emanuele Sella in the 2008 Giro either, is it? Nibali, Rodríguez, Antón and Scarponi were all undercooked, and he got way more freedom more early than he might have otherwise expected thanks to Menchov losing unnecessary time early on, and by the time Wiggins finally dropped and they put their eggs in the Froome basket it was too late. And he was able to take advantage because Froome was an even bigger shock than him and Sky were backing Wiggins to the tune of having Froome domestiquing on La Manzaneda while wearing the red jersey. Cobo winning the Vuelta is a huge anomaly, sure, and not with big gifts of time like a Pereiro, a Walkowiak or even, hell, a Giovannetti got, but it wasn't like he laid the smack down on the 2014 Tour Nibali or the 2012 Rodríguez either.

I'd argue 2007 País Vasco Cobo was at least as strong if not stronger than 2011 Vuelta Cobo. Maybe even stronger than 2008 Hautacam Cobo.