Le Tour 2018 stage 11: Albertville > La Rosière 108,5 km

[Red Rick]

Re:

Nothing G has done so far in this Tour is out of the ordinary for a rider with his palmares. Nor would it be a surprise if he were to do a Simon Yates in the Pyrenees.

When he went on the attack, everyone else in the group kept their eyes on Froome. I can’t help thinking, that their mindset was “it’ll be easier to make up a minute, even 2 minutes or more on G. If we give Froome 30s, we’ll never get it back.”

If Martin hadn’t attacked when he did, the way he did, I don’t think Froome would’ve got away alone, and I think that group would’ve come in another half minute of half-wheeling and looking around later than they did.

Pretty sure Thomas has a total of 3 podiums in WT stage races, no GT top 10s, and like 2 or 3 top 10s in TdF mountain stages before this. He's over 30.

It is completely out of the ordinary.

 

[macbindle]

Today GVA was in yellow after the first mountain stage, yesterday.

 

[Rollthedice]

Sky has the uncanny ability to make the ordinary extraordinary.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Can't say Movistar wasted the move. They just weren't good enough. That Valverde couldn't hold Tom D's wheel, and then went straight out the back shows he is not the super-domestique many want him to be. Quintana just isn't good enough. Hasn't been for a long time.

I've been saying this for a long time, tactics are way easier when your the strongest. Movistar aren't. Their tactics are limitied not by the decisions on the road, but their lack of strength to challenge for the podium. Overrated. Simply put.

 

[Leinster]

G’s won Paris Nice, the Dauphine and the Tour of the Alps, and been 2nd at the Tour de Suisse. He’s just had 9 days of classics riding, so of course he’s fresher than the climbers. He was able to mix it with climbers in the 2011 Tour after Wiggo crashed out, so its not as if he only just discovered what his small ring is for.

He’s taken an unusual path to get here, but it doesn’t mean that path is impossible

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Today GVA was in yellow after the first mountain stage, yesterday.

There's obviously a huge difference between getting into the break to limit your losses and giving everything to cling on to the yellow jersey for one final day. And jumping out of a group of the best climbers in the world towards the end of a hard mountain stage; immediately closing a 30 second gap to Dumoulin, then sprinting clear to gain another 20 seconds in the final km. Taking the yellow jersey by over a minute in the process.

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Anyone know why Serge Pauwels, Edvald Boasson Hagen and Timo Roosen have received penalties?
https://www.letour.fr/fr/classements

 

[Koronin]

Re:

Can't say Movistar wasted the move. They just weren't good enough. That Valverde couldn't hold Tom D's wheel, and then went straight out the back shows he is not the super-domestique many want him to be. Quintana just isn't good enough. Hasn't been for a long time.

I've been saying this for a long time, tactics are way easier when your the strongest. Movistar aren't. Their tactics are limitied not by the decisions on the road, but their lack of strength to challenge for the podium. Overrated. Simply put.

Except with Valverde he's not near a peak. He's only in race shape at best. The Tour has never been one of his goals and he didn't particularly even want to go to the Tour in the first place. He had wanted to do the Giro/Vuelta double, but the team basically begged him to do the Tour/Vuelta double. Then add in that he needed a break after the Ardennes, and took more time off than he usually does to rest. He'd need to be a lot closer to peak as he's been in the past to be that Super Dom.

However, with Movistar shooting themselves in the foot today, they basically have no good tactics moving forward.

 

[rlntlssly]

Re:

Anyone know why Serge Pauwels, Edvald Boasson Hagen and Timo Roosen have received penalties?
https://www.letour.fr/fr/classements

Pauwels took a feed in the final kilometres of the stage. Roosen drafted his team car for too long. Boasson Hagen took help of some kind from another team (Team Sky's DS Servais Knaven).

https://twitter.com/EuroHoody/status/1019655782764335106

 

[Ataraxus]

Very cunning and a little unfair to the team the move from Bernal dropping early and finishing on par with Landa.
If I were Sky DS I'd have a word with him this evening.

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

Today GVA was in yellow after the first mountain stage, yesterday.

There's obviously a huge difference between getting into the break to limit your losses and giving everything to cling on to the yellow jersey for one final day. And jumping out of a group of the best climbers in the world towards the end of a hard mountain stage; immediately closing a 30 second gap to Dumoulin, then sprinting clear to gain another 20 seconds in the final km. Taking the yellow jersey by over a minute in the process.

On the face of it, biomechanically, G being able to climb is no more surprising than Dumoulin being able to climb. Dumoulin had pretty much rode the whole mountain (and most of the descent and valley before) on his own, so also not much surprise that, having been in the wheels all along, G could bridge a 30s gap.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Can't say Movistar wasted the move. They just weren't good enough. That Valverde couldn't hold Tom D's wheel, and then went straight out the back shows he is not the super-domestique many want him to be. Quintana just isn't good enough. Hasn't been for a long time.

I've been saying this for a long time, tactics are way easier when your the strongest. Movistar aren't. Their tactics are limitied not by the decisions on the road, but their lack of strength to challenge for the podium. Overrated. Simply put.

Except with Valverde he's not near a peak. He's only in race shape at best. The Tour has never been one of his goals and he didn't particularly even want to go to the Tour in the first place. He had wanted to do the Giro/Vuelta double, but the team basically begged him to do the Tour/Vuelta double. Then add in that he needed a break after the Ardennes, and took more time off than he usually does to rest. He'd need to be a lot closer to peak as he's been in the past to be that Super Dom.

However, with Movistar shooting themselves in the foot today, they basically have no good tactics moving forward.

That's fair. I was thinking GT-brand Valverde but didn't say it. He's still got it as a rider of course.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Can't say Movistar wasted the move. They just weren't good enough. That Valverde couldn't hold Tom D's wheel, and then went straight out the back shows he is not the super-domestique many want him to be. Quintana just isn't good enough. Hasn't been for a long time.

I've been saying this for a long time, tactics are way easier when your the strongest. Movistar aren't. Their tactics are limitied not by the decisions on the road, but their lack of strength to challenge for the podium. Overrated. Simply put.

Except with Valverde he's not near a peak. He's only in race shape at best. The Tour has never been one of his goals and he didn't particularly even want to go to the Tour in the first place. He had wanted to do the Giro/Vuelta double, but the team basically begged him to do the Tour/Vuelta double. Then add in that he needed a break after the Ardennes, and took more time off than he usually does to rest. He'd need to be a lot closer to peak as he's been in the past to be that Super Dom.

However, with Movistar shooting themselves in the foot today, they basically have no good tactics moving forward.

That's fair. I was thinking GT-brand Valverde but didn't say it. He's still got it as a rider of course.

The Vuelta is another story. He's chasing history there and really wants another podium there to tie the record. With the Tour, he's even said he's done chasing the Tour and has been somewhat disinterested in going and really is only there because they basically begged him to go.

 

[Robert5091]

Nieve & Tommy D - men of the day. Team Sky - "USPS look alike" award. WTF Valverde? Is Quintana so pooped already?

So then, who do you think will win the Vuelta?

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I've just watched it. Some remarks:
- first we must thank Movistar they tried to do sth, thanks to them the stage was more entertaining;
- great, what Michał Kwiatkowski did, what he was presumed to do - thanks to him finally Valverde cracked;
- Sb said -Valverde will win it - he will not, he is nowhere, and we have some summits above 2000 asl;
- Bahrain? - thanks, you did some great work, but after that Nibali did nothing;
- what was dissapointing - Froome behind Dumo;
- how could Landa or Quintana win with GT or CF with such shape - I don't know;
- what is question mark - how Froome will beat GT.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Highly doubtful either of Froome or Thomas will crack

Froome has to dispatch Thomas or vice versa. Could be interesting.

Actually there is a chance that both of them crack. Not big but a significant amount of time to make them lose the race.

Thinking with a cold head, we knew that the danger zone for either Froome or Dumo was the third week. Not the first two. So there is still that risk. And Thomas, regardless of what people have said in this forum, is yet to prove his consistency during 3 weeks.

It might be that neither will crack but the possibility is there. And is not as low as people think.

If this happens then third week becomes an attrition race.

 

[MuskyOurSaviour]

Re: Re:

Highly doubtful either of Froome or Thomas will crack

Froome has to dispatch Thomas or vice versa. Could be interesting.

Actually there is a chance that both of them crack. Not big but a significant amount of time to make them lose the race.

Thinking with a cold head, we knew that the danger zone for either Froome or Dumo was the third week. Not the first two. So there is still that risk. And Thomas, regardless of what people have said in this forum, is yet to prove his consistency during 3 weeks.

It might be that neither will crack but the possibility is there. And is not as low as people think.

They both might have a bad day, but for them to crack on same day would be super unlikely. And this would mean whoever has first bad day will clearly work for the other 100% for rest of the Tour so that would mitigate the risk.

 

[Robert5091]

WTF Marcel? I'm still going to "fight for my hair"!

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

Highly doubtful either of Froome or Thomas will crack

Froome has to dispatch Thomas or vice versa. Could be interesting.

Actually there is a chance that both of them crack. Not big but a significant amount of time to make them lose the race.

Thinking with a cold head, we knew that the danger zone for either Froome or Dumo was the third week. Not the first two. So there is still that risk. And Thomas, regardless of what people have said in this forum, is yet to prove his consistency during 3 weeks.

It might be that neither will crack but the possibility is there. And is not as low as people think.

If this happens then third week becomes an attrition race.

Nibali to roll into Laruns 3 minutes ahead of Froome, 7 ahead of Dumoulin, 12 ahead of G, to take the stage and Maillot Jaune by 1’45” over Bardet, then consolidate the next day in the TT.

 

[franic]

Re:

Wow, some fairly insane commentary in this thread.

I don't like Sky, but GT has always been a good bike rider. You'll get idiots coming out with stuff like "you can't go from team pursuit champ to Grand Tour winner" when it has been demonstrated that you can. A good bike rider is a good bike rider. If they can change their body shape a bit, even big TT lumps can win Grand Tours ... Mig, Brad, Tom. Hell, mountain bikers are becoming sprinters and classics riders ... and ski jumpers are able to hang with top mountain goats on a bike.

People take positions of such certainty when, repeatedly, cycling shows us that there ain't no such thing.

And anyway, Geeeee (euugh) is in yellow ... he hasn't won. GVA was in yellow today FFS.

I guess I’m one of the idiot, but the fact that you need to resort to Miguel tells me a lot about GT. What’s next? Ulrich, Riis?
What most of you don’t understand is that the problem with GT, or Froome has nothing to do with their body shapes. GT is 183cm for 69kg, which is not too far from Nibali’s 181cm for 65kg. The problem is that these people moved from being mediocre riders to having spectacular numbers in their late 20s/early 30s. In same cases, i.e. Froome, the rider moved from being second (maybe third) rate to being unbeatable.
It takes some suspension of disbelief to accept a Di Luca winning the Giro, but at least the guy was a one day competitive rider. Here you have a second tier one day rider (let’s say somebody like Paolini) that attacks and give 50” to Quintana and Nibali.
To make a comparison with boxing you don’t even have a Mayweather that beats Joshua, but a second tier lightweight winning against Anthony Joshua. Everybody in his mind would just laugh at it. But I guess everybody in his mind has started losing interest in grand tours long ago.

 

[The Hegelian]

Yeah. I'm out.....again.

Tour of Poland is becoming an interesting race, perhaps will rejoin the peloton then. The stuff currently unfolding is not watchable.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Wow, some fairly insane commentary in this thread.

I don't like Sky, but GT has always been a good bike rider. You'll get idiots coming out with stuff like "you can't go from team pursuit champ to Grand Tour winner" when it has been demonstrated that you can. A good bike rider is a good bike rider. If they can change their body shape a bit, even big TT lumps can win Grand Tours ... Mig, Brad, Tom. Hell, mountain bikers are becoming sprinters and classics riders ... and ski jumpers are able to hang with top mountain goats on a bike.

People take positions of such certainty when, repeatedly, cycling shows us that there ain't no such thing.

And anyway, Geeeee (euugh) is in yellow ... he hasn't won. GVA was in yellow today FFS.

I guess I’m one of the idiot, but the fact that you need to resort to Miguel tells me a lot about GT. What’s next? Ulrich, Riis?
What most of you don’t understand is that the problem with GT, or Froome has nothing to do with their body shapes. GT is 183cm for 69kg, which is not too far from Nibali’s 181cm for 65kg. The problem is that these people moved from being mediocre riders to having spectacular numbers in their late 20s/early 30s. In same cases, i.e. Froome, the rider moved from being second (maybe third) rate to being unbeatable.
It takes some suspension of disbelief to accept a Di Luca winning the Giro, but at least the guy was a one day competitive rider. Here you have a second tier one day rider (let’s say somebody like Paolini) that attacks and give 50” to Quintana and Nibali.
To make a comparison with boxing you don’t even have a Mayweather that beats Joshua, but a second tier lightweight winning against Anthony Joshua. Everybody in his mind would just laugh at it. But I guess everybody in his mind has started losing interest in grand tours long ago.

The first bolded part: Thomas was by no means a mediocre rider when he was young. He just specialised elsewhere and his transformation is very much like Wiggins' (I have no idea why people say it isn't when it clearly is). The fact that it comes as a shock to some how good he is now should be derived by his many accidents the past couple of years which has prevented him from showcasing his class earlier (he would surely have done it in the Giro last year already).

The second bolded part: No.

 

[The Barb]

Re: Re:

Wow, some fairly insane commentary in this thread.

I don't like Sky, but GT has always been a good bike rider. You'll get idiots coming out with stuff like "you can't go from team pursuit champ to Grand Tour winner" when it has been demonstrated that you can. A good bike rider is a good bike rider. If they can change their body shape a bit, even big TT lumps can win Grand Tours ... Mig, Brad, Tom. Hell, mountain bikers are becoming sprinters and classics riders ... and ski jumpers are able to hang with top mountain goats on a bike.

People take positions of such certainty when, repeatedly, cycling shows us that there ain't no such thing.

And anyway, Geeeee (euugh) is in yellow ... he hasn't won. GVA was in yellow today FFS.

I guess I’m one of the idiot, but the fact that you need to resort to Miguel tells me a lot about GT. What’s next? Ulrich, Riis?
What most of you don’t understand is that the problem with GT, or Froome has nothing to do with their body shapes. GT is 183cm for 69kg, which is not too far from Nibali’s 181cm for 65kg. The problem is that these people moved from being mediocre riders to having spectacular numbers in their late 20s/early 30s. In same cases, i.e. Froome, the rider moved from being second (maybe third) rate to being unbeatable.
It takes some suspension of disbelief to accept a Di Luca winning the Giro, but at least the guy was a one day competitive rider. Here you have a second tier one day rider (let’s say somebody like Paolini) that attacks and give 50” to Quintana and Nibali.
To make a comparison with boxing you don’t even have a Mayweather that beats Joshua, but a second tier lightweight winning against Anthony Joshua. Everybody in his mind would just laugh at it. But I guess everybody in his mind has started losing interest in grand tours long ago.

I agree but would add that comparisons to a sport like boxing are tricky. In boxing everyone has, literally, a puncher's chance.

Going up mountains in cycling does not have the same randomness. Yes, there is some strategy and such involved but, by and large, when a group arrives at the base of a final climb, the winner will be the person who can put out the best power to weight ratio for the duration of the climb. Froome on Zoncolan is a perfect example. It was a pure drag to the top.

Surprising results in cycling (at least , those in which the winner simply overpowers everyone else) should therefore be viewed with greater suspicion than when, for example, Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson.

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

Wow, some fairly insane commentary in this thread.

I don't like Sky, but GT has always been a good bike rider. You'll get idiots coming out with stuff like "you can't go from team pursuit champ to Grand Tour winner" when it has been demonstrated that you can. A good bike rider is a good bike rider. If they can change their body shape a bit, even big TT lumps can win Grand Tours ... Mig, Brad, Tom. Hell, mountain bikers are becoming sprinters and classics riders ... and ski jumpers are able to hang with top mountain goats on a bike.

People take positions of such certainty when, repeatedly, cycling shows us that there ain't no such thing.

And anyway, Geeeee (euugh) is in yellow ... he hasn't won. GVA was in yellow today FFS.

I guess I’m one of the idiot, but the fact that you need to resort to Miguel tells me a lot about GT. What’s next? Ulrich, Riis?
What most of you don’t understand is that the problem with GT, or Froome has nothing to do with their body shapes. GT is 183cm for 69kg, which is not too far from Nibali’s 181cm for 65kg. The problem is that these people moved from being mediocre riders to having spectacular numbers in their late 20s/early 30s. In same cases, i.e. Froome, the rider moved from being second (maybe third) rate to being unbeatable.
It takes some suspension of disbelief to accept a Di Luca winning the Giro, but at least the guy was a one day competitive rider. Here you have a second tier one day rider (let’s say somebody like Paolini) that attacks and give 50” to Quintana and Nibali.
To make a comparison with boxing you don’t even have a Mayweather that beats Joshua, but a second tier lightweight winning against Anthony Joshua. Everybody in his mind would just laugh at it. But I guess everybody in his mind has started losing interest in grand tours long ago.

The first bolded part: Thomas was by no means a mediocre rider when he was young. He just specialised elsewhere and his transformation is very much like Wiggins' (I have no idea why people say it isn't when it clearly is). The fact that it comes as a shock to some how good he is now should be derived by his many accidents the past couple of years which has prevented him from showcasing his class earlier (he would surely have done it in the Giro last year already).

The second bolded part: No.

How many individual gold medals has GT won on track? If your answer is zero then it doesn’t take a genius to realise that Wiggins != GT. By the way, we are still talking about Wiggins which is already a border line case.

 

[Andy262]

I just hope G does what Froome did to Wiggo. Payback time! But I guess Sky wont let that happen

Thomas winning would be more popular in Britain.

You're not kidding.