Leg strength

[oldborn]

I look forward to the cessation of claims that Basso won the Giro because he allegedly did weights as anecdotes are a poor way to support a claim especially when no evidence is provided that they are true.

Well, maybe i am blind but could you qoute my words that Basso won the Giro because he allegedly did weights. I just said that he lifted some weights, which is different, wright?

Hey Fergie, what about team Radio Shack coach new way? You are getting out of ammo, or?

 

[CoachFergie]

Irrelevant, this is no a who has a massive legs thread.

How do they knowing that it won;t make them any faster, when there is no such a study?
So all are misguided? Just listen to another way of coaching on top levels.

I listen to him, he is a expert wright? That does do not mean that he is 100% ok, while others are wrong, that is a beauty of this thread. I just saying there is another way of weights training, and again benefits are to debate, without spitting on some authorities.

Performance is multifactorial. Hundreds variables go into any race result so to claim that weight training (if he did indeed weight train leading up to the Giro) was the tipping point for Basso from last year is misguided.

As coaches and scientists all we can do is record data, assess the data, discard junk data (like anecdotes), detect phenomenon (like productive forms of training) and construct theories (ways to explain why certain training methods work).

It's a pity that some coaches and practitioners like to skip some stages and create theories based on what they think they observe or what they think is logical and ignore the data.

 

[CoachFergie]

Well, maybe i am blind but could you qoute my words that Basso won the Giro because he allegedly did weights. I just said that he lifted some weights, which is different, wright?

Then why claim he did weights before the Giro. I think you are lying to us, which is sad. Would any Pro "just lift some weights". What was his programme? What was his power before and after he did the weight training. Go ask Aldo if you are such good mates.

Hey Fergie, what about team Radio Shack coach new way? You are getting out of ammo, or?

Like Team Sky, they haven't had a very flash year have they?

Lim was Floyd Landis's coach. Either he was in on the drug taking all along or he is a total moron to have not noticed it.

 

[Tapeworm]

there is a constant stream of name dropping and buzz wordiness on this thread that will not be convincing to some.
The fundamental problem with the question is the imprecise 'leg strenth.'

Anecdotal evidence: I slashed my training hours on the bike and replaced it with weights. My watts production has gone up. My plateaus are shorter and I get way more power down to the pedals thanks to the gym.
My events are never longer than 2 hours. 'cross and MTB
My one or two rides a week are under 2 hours and I'm killing the fields when I lay off the itensity.

Do you have training and racing power files to quantify this?

Maybe it came as a result of more quality and less quantity on the bike. The gym just instigated this?

 

[oldborn]

Oh my Fergie, my Fergie, you are avoiding answers wich is leading us where?

Hey you may know Amy Mason, she is from same island as you? She wrote some article about strenght, not gym workouts i must admit but strenght.

Some of doctors disagree with her, which is ok, benefits are still......

Here is what she wrote as a response to Ric Stern:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern

Amy Mason's original response to Ric Stern:
I'd just like to had my two cents worth regarding Richard Stern's reply to Dana Matassa's weight training question. Richard commented "strength has little or no bearing on cycling performance". I disagree with his comments.

Over the last year I've tested 22 well-trained cyclists, were 10 were randomly allocated to a control group and 12 were in a supervised training group. The control group carried on with their normal endurance, speed-type training, and the training group trained with me twice a week on Cateye stationary trainers doing cycling specific strength training on-the-bike, for 8 weeks.

Before and after the eight week intervention period, the subjects had to do a VO2max test, Biodex isokinetic leg strength test, and 40 kilometre time trial in the lab. After the intervention the control group managed to get 0.5% worse in 40 km time (with training!) and the training group improved on average 2.5% - a 3% difference. The improvements were statistically significant. Some riders improved 3-7%, cutting 3+ minutes off their 40 kilometre times.

Analysis of their training over a 12 week period, including 4 weeks prior to the intervention, showed the only factor which changed in their training was the strength training. Therefore strength as a lot to do with cycling performance - if you train your strength specifically - unlike Bishop et al. 1999, who used weight training.

Also mentioned, "most research using trained cyclists or triathletes shows no correlation between muscular strength and cycling performance," however there are numerous studies (ie. Hawley & Noakes 92; Bentley et al 00; Westgarth-Taylor et al 97; Weston et al 97; Stepto et al 99) showing a correlation between peak power output at VO2max and time trial performance. Power is a result of force x velocity. The amount of force you can produce depends on your strength, which affects your power.

This was demonstrated above where the change in time trial time in the training group was highly correlated (r =0.79) to the change in peak power output at VO2max. Therefore there is a relationship between strength and cycling performance.

Regards,
Amy Mason

BSc Sport Science & Physiology
MSc Sport Science Student
Department of Sport & Exercise Science
University of Auckland
New Zealand

 

[PortableDave]

Your forgot Ric's reply:

"What Amy Mason appears to be testing and noting is not an increase in strength, but endurance power output, and likely power at lactate threshold and VO2 max. As I understand it, Amy's protocol consisted of 5 minute intervals at low cadence (50-80 revs/min) at specific power outputs on an indoor trainer plus normal endurance rides on the road, whilst the control group did their high intensity and endurance work on the road. It's possible there are methodological errors within this study, as outdoor training power outputs during the rider's normal high intensity work were not correctly accounted for, with e.g., SRM cranks/Power Tap hub.

Accordingly, it is impossible to know whether the riders were riding at the same (relative) power as those indoors. Thus, not only was she testing low cadence work against normal cadence, but likely differing amounts of power output. Although the research is part of a thesis towards an MSc, and time would be limited, a better (but longer) study might have been to compare high and low cadence indoor training at the same power output.

Big-gear (low cadence) training at moderately high power outputs, require far less strength/force than weight training, because even at this moderately low cadence, the rate of muscular contraction will be far higher than that used in the gym.

No mention is made of the results of the Biodex isokenetic leg strength test, so presumably(?) none were found.

Although Amy notes that there are numerous studies showing a correlation between peak [aerobic] power output and TT performance (e.g., Hawley and Noakes, 1992), it is an increase in aerobic power and associated metabolic pathways, and not strength (she fails to correctly distinguish between the two) that is seen when power (at VO2 max) increases after a training regimen.

I don't disagree that Hawley and Noakes (1992) found a significant correlation between Wmax and VO2 max. They also found significant correlation between Wmax and 20 km TT power output.

From my coaching and scientific experience, the way to increase power output is on the bike training that specifically causes overload: hill training, sprints, and intervals. As a man far wiser than me once said, "ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike"."

 

[Tapeworm]

Rebuttal to Amy Mason's letter....

 

[oldborn]

That is correct, why those two should agree? It is free world

 

[oldborn]

Like Team Sky, they haven't had a very flash year have they?

Lim was Floyd Landis's coach. Either he was in on the drug taking all along or he is a total moron to have not noticed it.

No they were bad, i agree.

Why calling peoples: moron, drug addict, dealers? Maybe they are just coaches like you, and riders who wants make a living when they getting old?

 

[oldborn]

Rebuttal to Amy Mason's letter....

Sorry for asking but Rebuttal means what?

 

[CoachFergie]

Over the last year I've tested 22 well-trained cyclists, were 10 were randomly allocated to a control group and 12 were in a supervised training group. The control group carried on with their normal endurance, speed-type training, and the training group trained with me twice a week on Cateye stationary trainers doing cycling specific strength training on-the-bike, for 8 weeks.

Amy needs to check her definition of strength. At no point in the training intervention to the experimental group come close to 50% of max power.

Analysis of their training over a 12 week period, including 4 weeks prior to the intervention, showed the only factor which changed in their training was the strength training. Therefore strength as a lot to do with cycling performance - if you train your strength specifically - unlike Bishop et al. 1999, who used weight training.

Again <50% of maximal power isn't really strength training is it.

Also mentioned, "most research using trained cyclists or triathletes shows no correlation between muscular strength and cycling performance," however there are numerous studies (ie. Hawley & Noakes 92; Bentley et al 00; Westgarth-Taylor et al 97; Weston et al 97; Stepto et al 99) showing a correlation between peak power output at VO2max and time trial performance. Power is a result of force x velocity. The amount of force you can produce depends on your strength, which affects your power.

Again needs to check her understanding. Wmax is around 30-40% of peak power so again strength doesn't come into it. Sure you can ride above your Wmax but only for a short period of time. I have the ability to sustain both Chris Boardman's pace and power output for his 4000m world record but I can only hold it for 45-60sec and not for 4:11min. Chris would be using his type I and type IIa fibres while I would be using my Type IIb, c, d.. fibres which have a far greater energy cost and very finite energy supply.

 

[CoachFergie]

Why calling peoples: moron, drug addict, dealers? Maybe they are just coaches like you, and riders who wants make a living when they getting old?

Because he is either an idiot who couldn't pick up his rider was using drugs or he was in on it. That is fraud. Especially when he solicited money from people to try and defend the charges against him.

 

[Tapeworm]

Sorry for asking but Rebuttal means what?

It means that someone already posted what I was going to, see the editing notes.

 

[CoachFergie]

That is correct, why those two should agree? It is free world

Yes, but someone got myth busted!

 

[oldborn]

It means that someone already posted what I was going to, see the editing notes.

Thanks mate!

 

[oldborn]

Because he is either an idiot who couldn't pick up his rider was using drugs or he was in on it. That is fraud. Especially when he solicited money from people to try and defend the charges against him.

DYNEPO is very hard to detect as you know, why should you think that Lin knew something. A second complicating factor is that introduced EPO only lasts in the body for a short time (as little as 24 hours) but its stimulus effect continues for as long as two weeks.

So maybe Landis cheat him?

 

[oldborn]

Performance is multifactorial. Hundreds variables go into any race result so to claim that weight training (if he did indeed weight train leading up to the Giro) was the tipping point for Basso from last year is misguided.

As coaches and scientists all we can do is record data, assess the data, discard junk data (like anecdotes), detect phenomenon (like productive forms of training) and construct theories (ways to explain why certain training methods work).

It's a pity that some coaches and practitioners like to skip some stages and create theories based on what they think they observe or what they think is logical and ignore the data.

Nice to hear, but irrelevant on post with skinny or massive legs.

 

[oldborn]

Amy needs to check her definition of strength. At no point in the training intervention to the experimental group come close to 50% of max power.

Again <50% of maximal power isn't really strength training is it.

Again needs to check her understanding. Wmax is around 30-40% of peak power so again strength doesn't come into it. Sure you can ride above your Wmax but only for a short period of time. I have the ability to sustain both Chris Boardman's pace and power output for his 4000m world record but I can only hold it for 45-60sec and not for 4:11min. Chris would be using his type I and type IIa fibres while I would be using my Type IIb, c, d.. fibres which have a far greater energy cost and very finite energy supply.

Yes, and no!

She proved something, everything else call her, is she cute?

 

[oldborn]

There is some guys who agree with her (Hey entire New Zealend is with her)

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/05/cdp.htm
Commentary on High-Resistance Training Improves 40-km Time-Trial Performance in Competitive Cyclists

Carl D Paton

Sportscience 9, 32 (sportsci.org/jour/05/cpd.htm)
Centre for Sport and Exercise Science, Waikato Institute of Technology, Hamilton, NZ. Email.
Reprint pdf · Reprint doc


In a recent article, Will Hopkins and I reported a study we performed in 2003 on the benefits for short-term endurance of adding high-intensity resistance training to the program of already well-trained cyclists (Paton ande Hopkins, 2005). Unbeknown to us, Amy Mason was performing a very similar study.

In contrast to almost all previous authors (see review by Paton and Hopkins, 2004), Amy had the foresight to trial the training strategy in the athlete’s competitive season, when the results would be more meaningful. Her findings are remarkably similar to ours and clearly support the beneficial effects of sport-specific resistance training in endurance cycling events. While the mechanisms underlying the improvement in performance are not yet clearly established, the fact is that this type of resistance training works for competitive cyclists, and probably other endurance athletes.

While I acknowledge the difficulty in conducting interventions with athletes during their competitive season, it appears that this is the next logical step to take if we wish to provide more meaningful advice to the athletes. I hope that Amy’s success will encourage others to adopt this approach not only for training studies but also other interventions aimed at performance enhancement.

Back to article/homepage
Paton CD, Hopkins WG (2004). Effects of high-intensity training on performance and physiology of endurance athletes. Sportscience 8, 25-40

Paton CD, Hopkins WG (2005). Combining explosive and high-resistance training improves performance in competitive cyclists. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 19, 826-830

Published Dec 2005

©2005

So something is going on, do you know them?

 

[oldborn]

There is something more on that.

http://www.sportsci.org/news/traingain/resistance.html#marcinik

We find strong evidence against a training program incorporating resistance training into well-trained endurance athletes' normal workouts to improve their endurance performance. There are, however, several scientific studies that report a beneficial effect of resistance training on both short and long-term endurance capacity. Hickson et al. (1988), a frequently cited investigation supporting the use of strength training to improve endurance, found that a three-times-a-week strength training program undertaken for 10 weeks did not change the VO2max of moderately-trained runners and cyclists. But a short-term (4-8 minutes) endurance test was improved by 12% for both running and cycling, while long-term endurance improved from 70 to 85 minutes for cycling.

Marcinik et al. (1991) showed that strength training had positive effects of endurance cycling capacity. Eighteen males performed 12 weeks of strength training three times a week. The strength training consisted of 8-12 repetitions of upper body exercise (bench press, push-ups, lat pull-downs, arm curls) and 15-20 repetitions on lower body exercises (knee extensions, hip flexion's, parallel squats) with a 30-second rest between exercises. The strength training program had no effect on the subjects VO2max. However, 1 RM for knee extension and hip flexion improved by 30% and 52% respectively. More important, cycle time to exhaustion at 75% of VO2max improved a massive 33% from 26.3 minutes before strength training to 35.1 minutes after training. The conclusion: "strength training improves cycle endurance performance independently of changes in VO2max... and that this improvement appears to be related to increase in leg strength."

Several reasons explain why some individuals improve their endurance capabilities with strength training while others don't. First, it appears that there is a minimal amount of muscle strength required for endurance events. This general principle applies to athletes of all abilities, but is especially important for those individuals who are new to a sport and therefore only moderately-trained in that discipline. These novice athletes will benefit from any increase in general fitness, be it an improvement in strength or endurance. This explains why the greater muscle power seen after short-term strength training programs increases endurance capacity in these individuals. In all likelihood, any training stimulus which overloads the working muscles would have improved their performance. The large improvements in muscle power seen after strength training merely compensate for their poor technique or efficiency of movement. This is especially true in sports such as swimming and rowing, where stroke mechanics and technical proficiency are perfected only after many years of training and hours on the water.

Marcinik, E.J., Potts, J., Schlabach, G., Will, S., Dawson, P., Hurley, B.F. (1991). Effects of strength training on lactate threshold and endurance performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 23, 739-743.

Enjoy reading this, hope this help on thread, see you later. I believe this is old school aproach.

 

[oldborn]

Yes, but someone got myth busted!

Noooooooooooooo

 

[kielbasa]

Assuming that you've been in training for at least couple of years (since a complete noob will see increases even with bad training for the first few months), here's an n=1 study you can do on yourself. Instead of lifting weights, just do a more cycling specific and useful strength training exercise, e.g. sprints. Do them 3 times a week; 5 seconds long, 20 seconds long, 30 seconds, standing sprints, flying sprints, have at it. You'll be literally increasing your leg strength on the bike rather than doing controlled lifts which don't even duplicate the correct cycling movements. After 2-3 months, do an FTP test and report back. Have faith and good luck, but don't say you haven't been warned.

Why is it that sprinters (even smaller ones like Cavendish/McEwen) can't climb or time-trial despite being able to produce greater maximal power (greater natural leg strength)?

 

[oldborn]

Assuming that you've been in training for at least couple of years (since a complete noob will see increases even with bad training for the first few months), here's an n=1 study you can do on yourself. Instead of lifting weights, just do a more cycling specific and useful strength training exercise, e.g. sprints. Do them 3 times a week; 5 seconds long, 20 seconds long, 30 seconds, standing sprints, flying sprints, have at it. You'll be literally increasing your leg strength on the bike rather than doing controlled lifts which don't even duplicate the correct cycling movements. After 2-3 months, do an FTP test and report back. Have faith and good luck, but don't say you haven't been warned.

Why is it that sprinters (even smaller ones like Cavendish/McEwen) can't climb or time-trial despite being able to produce greater maximal power (greater natural leg strength)?

Thanks, but irrelevant, this thread is not about my way of training.

 

[oldborn]

Hey Fergie, do you realy thought that i knew Aldo, sorry but that was a allegory.

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

Nice to hear, but irrelevant on post with skinny or massive legs.

Very relevant when we are trying to make a credible claims about the role of strength in cycling.