Leg strength

[oldborn]

You're going round in circles, Fergie talks science and asks you to produce proof and you fall back to "<insert pros name here> does it, so you must be wrong". Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence?

Hey thanks for reading this, it is wonderful how someone can be eloquent.

Well there is no evidence that strenght training decrease or increase enduro riders performance, wright?

So all we can do is make some examples of real life top athletes, coaches, and books about cycling. If someone call this anecdotal evidence, instead of interviews, articles etc. that is his wright, but i will stick to what we have wright now, and this is that some of the riders do weight training, some of them not. And the most important their results, talks better then me.

 

[oldborn]

Aldo should check his definition of strength and force. There is nothing special about these intervals.
Anyone can write a book on cycling just as anyone can write something on the Internet.

So you claim that Aldo got wrong, and you are wright?

Why are you so against it?

 

[CoachFergie]

Hey thanks for reading this, it is wonderful how someone can be eloquent.

Well there is no evidence that strenght training decrease or increase enduro riders performance, wright?

So all we can do is make some examples of real life top athletes, coaches, and books about cycling. If someone call this anecdotal evidence, instead of interviews, articles etc. that is his wright, but i will stick to what we have wright now, and this is that some of the riders do weight training, some of them not. And the most important their results, talks better then me.

Your opinion has been duly noted.

 

[oldborn]

Hey Fergie, come in Europe and learn something about cycling from people who has results, instead of spitting on everything that is not your way to train. Be more open minded.

And actualy why Aussies, and Kiwies booked hotels to be with old school coaches? I mean you having there

 

[CoachFergie]

Hey Fergie, come in Europe and learn something about cycling from people who has results, instead of spitting on everything that is not your way to train. Be more open minded.

And actualy why Aussies, and Kiwies booked hotels to be with old school coaches? I mean you having there

Your opinion is duly noted.

 

[oldborn]

Your opinion is duly noted.

Thanks for the answer, you are gentleman as always. Just let me know on time, you know reservation, food, and you can stay at my hause of course on balkony
Meanwhile you have that Aldo number so....

 

[ihavenolimbs]

A fellow Kiwi, did you race the Tour de Taieri on the weekend?

Yeah I did, sub-zero temperatures and snow always make for a fun stage-race!!

That Vink guy is damn fast, is he one of yours? He must lift weights to be that fast.

 

[CoachFergie]

Yeah I did, sub-zero temperatures and snow always make for a fun stage-race!!

That Vink guy is damn fast, is he one of yours? He must lift weights to be that fast.

Yeah I was there watching you guys race in snow and sleet.

Vink is one of Gydey's boys. Think he is meant to do gym but doesn't. He just smashes some real hard intervals. Took all of the Benchy's to beat him.

I was pretty happy with Kennett, Edmondston, Bowman and Tutton in their grades. A few others need to toughen up. No gym session could prepare you for those conditions

 

[oldborn]

Hey Fergie, what about Chris Carmichael and Dr. Max Testa?

Read, and please comment it.

Carmichael said:

Carmichael doesn't prescribe weight training to gain power, only to gain strength. Power is then obtained through specific training -- i.e. training on the bike. That is why he uses the term "resistance training" rather than just "weight training". Carmichael prefers leg presses to squats for safety. Squats can be done safely if the athlete is experienced enough but, given the short number of weeks the athlete is in the gym, it is generally better to play it safe with leg presses, which provide similar benefits. Both strengthen the quadriceps, which are prime movers for cycling, and also the important hamstrings and **** muscles.

Generally, squats and leg presses should be performed only through the same range of motion as in cycling. Too much knee flexion can over-stress the knees. Leg (knee) extensions should be avoided because they put a dangerous load on the patella.

These specific exercises Carmichael recommends are simple and give good results. If the athlete is experienced with other exercises that also provide results, they can be used instead. The key priority in the gym must be avoiding injury.
Functional strength training can make you a better athlete, improve your sport-specific performance, and enhance your overall health. Yet, due to time constraints, many endurance athletes struggle to integrate a strength component into their training programs. In response to the countless requests we’ve received about strength training for endurance athletes.
Why is functional strength training important? Endurance sports tend to develop some muscles while neglecting others, a situation that can be good for your sport-specific performance but bad for your overall health and your ability to be a well-rounded athlete. Functional strength training helps make sure you’re ready for anything, and any activity, life or your sport throws at you.

References:

Chris Carmichael was as an Olympian and a professional cyclist before becoming a renowned coach, best-selling author, and entrepreneur. He has coached 7-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong since 1990, was recognized as the U.S. Olympic Committee Coach of the Year, and was inducted into the United States Bicycling Hall of Fame in 2003. [/B]



Dr. Massimo Testa, do you heard for him down there in New Zealend?

Cycling physician and trainer Max Testa says to begin the winter with 3-4 sets of 12-18 reps with medium resistance, then progress to 3 sets of 25 reps followed by 2 sets of 50 reps with light weights. Testa's reason for high-repetition/low resistance leg training: "When you pedal you use a very small percentage of maximum strength on each pedal stroke."


Way back in 1983, Dr. Aldo Sassi and Dr. Massimo Testa of the Mapei Sports Performance Training Center (Milan, Italy) developed a pedaling strength method, which was substantially aerobic by nature. The idea was that the main limiting factor of longer aerobic cycling effort occurs because of circulatory impairments rhythmically imposed by muscular contractions during the pedal stroke. Even though there have been limited studies on this type of training, there is no doubt that of all the workouts given our athletes, over time, the consistent feedback is that SFR’s directly lead to a significant increase in fitness.

References
•Director, AthletiCamps Coaching Program, Sacramento, CA. (2005 - Present)
•Director, Intermountain Health Sports Performance Program, Salt Lake City, UT. (2006 - Present)
•Director, UC Davis Sports Performance Program, Sacramento, CA. (2001 - 2006)
•Mapei Professional Cycling Team (1998 - 2002)
•MG-Technogym Professional Cycling Team (1997)
•Motorola Professional Cycling Team (1991-1996)
•7-11 Professional Cycling Team (1985-1990)



Eric Heiden, M.D
Alternative forms of exercise develop whole-body conditioning by recruiting muscles your primary activity may not activate. When a bicyclist does gym training, for example, she can specifically focus on muscle groups that cycling neglects. It can also accelerate weight loss. One study showed that runners who maintained their usual running schedules and added just one 30-minute cross-training workout (in this case, cycling) per week lost an extra pound of fat every 10 weeks, provided they didn't increase their eating.

But there is another, often overlooked, benefit of weight training. We're discovering that cycling may contribute to bone loss in both men and women because it's not a weight-bearing activity. So cyclists should crosstrain for bone health. Weight training and jumping (like rope skipping) are helpful.

Anthony Colpo on weight training and Reduced Bone Density

A study published in 2008 comparing bone mineral density (BMD) in recreational cyclists and runners uncovered some rather disconcerting findings. When people of think of strong healthy bones, runners are often the last group that come to mind; long distance runners have long been considered poster boys for the emaciating effects of excessive endurance exercise. But in this study, the cyclists fared even worse:

•The cyclists had significantly lower BMD of the whole body and spine than the runners, despite having similar age, weight, body mass index, body composition, hormonal status, current activity level, and nutrient intakes.
•63% of the cyclists had osteopenia of the spine or hip, compared with 19% of the runners.
•Cyclists were 7 times more likely to have osteopenia of the spine than runners, controlling for age, body weight, and bone-loading history.

Road cycling does wonders for your lungs and muscular endurance, but its effect on bones leaves a lot to be desired. If, like yours truly, you’re a road cycling addict then be sure to set aside some time for weight training. You don’t have to become a gym rat and compromise your training on the bike; 3 whole-body sessions a week, lasting 45-60 minutes, utilizing the basic compound lifts mentioned above will do wonders for your strength and BMD.

References on Colpo article:

1. Stein J. Cyclists at risk for bone loss. LA Times, February 16, 2009.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/16/health/he-cycling162. Frost HM. Why do marathon runners have less bone than weight lifters? A vital-biomechanical view and explanation. Bone, Mar 1997; 20 (3): 183-189.
3. Karlsson MK, et al. Bone mineral density in weight lifters. Calcified Tissue International, 1993; 52 (3): 212-215.
4. Mudd LM, et al. Bone mineral density in collegiate female athletes: comparisons among sports. Journal of Athletic Training, 2007 Jul-Sep; 42 (3): 403-408.
5. Magkos F, et al. The bone response to non-weight-bearing exercise is sport-, site-, and sex-specific. Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine, Mar 2007; 17 (2): 123-128.
6. Rector RS, et al. Participation in road cycling vs running is associated with lower bone mineral density in men. Metabolism, Feb 2008; 57 (2): 226-232.
7. Campion F, et al. Bone status in professional cyclists. International Journal of Sports Medicine, Jul 2010; 31 (7): 511-515.
8. Nichols JF, et al. Low bone mineral density in highly trained male master cyclists. Osteoporosis International, Aug 2003; 14 (8): 644-649.
9. Sabo D, et al. Bone quality in the lumbar spine in high-performance athletes. European Spine Journal, 1996; 5 (4): 258–263.
10. Warner SE, et al. Bone mineral density of competitive male mountain and road cyclists. Bone, Jan 2002; 30 (1): 281-286.
11. Wilks DC, et al. Forearm and tibial bone measures of distance- and sprint-trained master cyclists. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Mar 2009; 41 (3): 566-573.




Enjoy reading this

 

[CoachFergie]

Carmichael said:

Carmichael doesn't prescribe weight training to gain power, only to gain strength.

Carmichael should look at Lances SRM files and see that cycling is not a strength sport.

Functional strength training can make you a better athlete, improve your sport-specific performance, and enhance your overall health. Yet, due to time constraints, many endurance athletes struggle to integrate a strength component into their training programs. In response to the countless requests we’ve received about strength training for endurance athletes.
Why is functional strength training important? Endurance sports tend to develop some muscles while neglecting others, a situation that can be good for your sport-specific performance but bad for your overall health and your ability to be a well-rounded athlete. Functional strength training helps make sure you’re ready for anything, and any activity, life or your sport throws at you.

Probably has a DVD to sell.

References:

Chris Carmichael was as an Olympian and a professional cyclist before becoming a renowned coach, best-selling author, and entrepreneur. He has coached 7-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong since 1990, was recognized as the U.S. Olympic Committee Coach of the Year, and was inducted into the United States Bicycling Hall of Fame in 2003.

That isn't a reference.

Dr. Massimo Testa, do you heard for him down there in New Zealend?

Cycling physician and trainer Max Testa says to begin the winter with 3-4 sets of 12-18 reps with medium resistance, then progress to 3 sets of 25 reps followed by 2 sets of 50 reps with light weights. Testa's reason for high-repetition/low resistance leg training: "When you pedal you use a very small percentage of maximum strength on each pedal stroke."

Yes, he gave some of the Kiwi's on USPS instructions on how to use EPO.

Yes a very small percentage, so small that one would question the role of strength training in any athletes training. I suggest Dr Testa brush up on his neurophysiology.

Way back in 1983, Dr. Aldo Sassi and Dr. Massimo Testa of the Mapei Sports Performance Training Center (Milan, Italy) developed a pedaling strength method, which was substantially aerobic by nature. The idea was that the main limiting factor of longer aerobic cycling effort occurs because of circulatory impairments rhythmically imposed by muscular contractions during the pedal stroke. Even though there have been limited studies on this type of training, there is no doubt that of all the workouts given our athletes, over time, the consistent feedback is that SFR’s directly lead to a significant increase in fitness.

There is in fact considerable doubt over SFR, SE or high torque training.

References
•Director, AthletiCamps Coaching Program, Sacramento, CA. (2005 - Present)
•Director, Intermountain Health Sports Performance Program, Salt Lake City, UT. (2006 - Present)
•Director, UC Davis Sports Performance Program, Sacramento, CA. (2001 - 2006)
•Mapei Professional Cycling Team (1998 - 2002)
•MG-Technogym Professional Cycling Team (1997)
•Motorola Professional Cycling Team (1991-1996)
•7-11 Professional Cycling Team (1985-1990)

Again not references.

Considering that Mapei, MG-Technogym had a rather large number of riders go positive in drug tests and Motorola are currently under the spotlight I wouldn't be suggesting their results were from SFR. More to the point these "special training techniques" are used to explain "extraordinary" performances.

Eric Heiden, M.D
Alternative forms of exercise develop whole-body conditioning by recruiting muscles your primary activity may not activate. When a bicyclist does gym training, for example, she can specifically focus on muscle groups that cycling neglects. It can also accelerate weight loss. One study showed that runners who maintained their usual running schedules and added just one 30-minute cross-training workout (in this case, cycling) per week lost an extra pound of fat every 10 weeks, provided they didn't increase their eating.

Again Dr Heiden needs to brush up on his neurophysiology.

But there is another, often overlooked, benefit of weight training. We're discovering that cycling may contribute to bone loss in both men and women because it's not a weight-bearing activity. So cyclists should crosstrain for bone health. Weight training and jumping (like rope skipping) are helpful.

The research would indicate that the skipping is of more use than the weight training in this regard.

3 whole-body sessions a week, lasting 45-60 minutes, utilizing the basic compound lifts mentioned above will do wonders for your strength and BMD.

Overkill.

All just goes to show anyone can say whatever they want on the Net. I challenge Dr's Sassi, Heiden and Testa to do some research (all are published, I have referenced all three in various assignments) or even submit a case study (Coyle did for Armstrong showing his improvements were from greater efficiency in in type I muscle fibres from years of riding the bike at lower intensities) showing that SFR training or gym training conveys any performance benefit in cyclists.

I would also want to see Basso's training programme and evidence he followed it (SRM files and gym records) before I comment on how any form of training he did affected his performance in this year's Giro. I would also like to compare this years power with last years to ensure that the improvements (if there were any, maybe he just rode smarter or had better team support) are legitimate.

Anything else is just opinion.

 

[oldborn]

Something new with Lin, more modern days aproach to weight training. It is interesting. So read!

Off Weights, Onto the TRX
Professional cyclists traditionally lift weights during their brief, six week “off” season to bolster power and strength for the coming season. But once the racing season gets underway, they don’t have the time, resources or energy to hit the gym while globetrotting, and any gains made in the weight room quickly fall by the wayside. “I was looking for a product to give to guys so they could so some strength maintenance, balance, mobility and core work throughout the year that was convenient and travel friendly that they’d all have access to since pro cyclists train on their own and work with their own coaches,” he says. “Why even bother with weight training if the guys just end up detraining the gains they made lifting weights? The question became, ‘What could we give the guys to do year-round?’” Lim encountered the TRX while working with Garmin-Transitions where Vande Velde had started using the TRX with his personal trainer. After familiarizing himself with the TRX, Lim quickly saw the huge potential Suspension Training held for his athletes and for all cyclists, whatever their ability. The TRX’s lightweight, portability, scalability and ability to be set up anywhere, including in hotel rooms—where pro cyclists spend much of their time off the bike in season—made it a great tool for Lim’s intended outcomes.

How the Shack Uses the TRX
Currently, Leipheimer and Armstrong use the TRX on their own and Lim would like to prescribe team-wide TRX training both in season and off season. “We’ve been seeding the TRX among individual riders and seeing how we can use it in the future.” During the off season, Lim specifies, brief, intense TRX workouts using simple whole body movements that emphasize metabolic “cardio strength” training. In season, he likes the TRX to be used to maintain strength and power gains, mobility and agility, and for prehab, muscle activation and core strength maintenance. “We’ve gone away from the paradigm of trying to maintain Schwarzenegger-type strength gains on the bike and have shifted to intense, metabolic conditioning-style strength workouts. It’s amazing how much you can tear apart a pro cyclist with 15 minutes on the TRX. You don’t need to get in a special outfit, go to the gym, check out the ladies and come home three hours later. It’s a frickin’ waste of time. You can make the gains you need with a simple routine.”

Allen Lim’s TRX Workout for Cyclists
Perform 15 minutes as a continuous circuit of 10 reps of each of the following movements:
TRX Single Leg Squat
TRX Lunge
TRX Sprinter Start
TRX Pendulum
TRX Mountain Climber
TRX Chest Press
TRX Row

 

[CoachFergie]

Something new with Lin, more modern days aproach to weight training. It is interesting. So read!

Oh goodie, more opinion pieces.

What next an infomercial?

 

[oldborn]

So in summary they are all stoned, and drug dealers, nice. Fergie you know lot of things. Something is only for Armstrong, after his cancer he was not able to ride at 75-80 rpm on hills so he choose rather higer reps, ok.

This year TDF Schleck rides 75RPM with 24-25km/h average speed on Col du Tourmalet, do you think that he had larger sprockets that he will ride at 100rpm, come on, those 40-45RPM intervals are today standard for some of them.

And why you mentioned Lance? Do you now something else? Do you have his data?

 

[oldborn]

Oh goodie, more opinion pieces.

What next an infomercial?

What, Team Radio Shack Coach is Chineese so he is on Opium? Come one, you have better ideas.

 

[oldborn]

I challenge Dr's Sassi, Heiden and Testa to do some research

Come on Fergie, you are brave man, should not you come in Europe or US to challenge someone, it is difficult from keyboard.

 

[CoachFergie]

So in summary they are all stoned, and drug dealers, nice. Fergie you know lot of things. Something is only for Armstrong, after his cancer he was not able to ride at 75-80 rpm on hills so he choose rather higer reps, ok.

This year TDF Schleck rides 75RPM with 24-25km/h average speed on Col du Tourmalet, do you think that he had larger sprockets that he will ride at 100rpm, come on, those 40-45RPM intervals are today standard for some of them.

And why you mentioned Lance? Do you now something else? Do you have his data?

Cherry picking snippets of what various Pro's do is not evidence unless you can show all the training they do including diet. This is why we take out observations and opinions and test them in the lab. Surely you can do better than "he said she said"

 

[oldborn]

Hey Fergie, good night see you

 

[CoachFergie]

Come on Fergie, you are brave man, should not you come in Europe or US to challenge someone, it is difficult from keyboard.

In fact it is very easy to say whatever you want on the Internet.

Seems some find the challenge is coming up with evidence to support their claims

 

[Tapeworm]

And Lim wouldn't be trying to sell anything here would he... All sound training advice eh?

 

[kielbasa]

If you want to find out just important leg strength is in cycling, line up against a world class 110 lbs woman cyclist so you can later marvel at how strong her little legs really are. Even EPO won't make your legs any stronger (please don't ask me to explain).

If there are elite cyclists who lift in the gym, they're either very misguided (cyclists aren't exactly rocket scientists or for that matter physiologists), trying to sell something (FRS anyone?), or simply enjoy being in the gym despite knowing that it won't make them faster.

So listen to Fergie y'all, he knows his stuff, and IIRC he trains national level. It took me a couple of years to learn the truth about proper training. Do your SST's, 2 x 20's, and recover instead of wasting time in the gym. If you wanna be better cyclist that is.

That is all.

 

[kielbasa]

Maja Wloszczowska

Maja Włoszczowska, the poster girl for leg strength in cycling :

 

[stephens]

It's quite possible she has stronger legs than many of the guys posting here. I know for sure that some elite female runners, even less muscular looking ones like Alyson Felix can lift way more than I can even though I probably outweigh them. Chicks can be strong!

You guys keep talking about elite level cyclists but this was not the question this thread is attempting to answer.

There may indeed be a point where additional leg strength is unnecessary. Where is that point? Is it anything more than the minimum required to push the pedals at 400W like some here say, or is it at some point higher than that so that while operating at 400w one is using a small percentage of their leg strength? And is the optimal amount of leg strength going to be the same for a guy with a VO2 of 60 and another guy with VO2 of 80? Or a guy with hematocrit of 34 and a guy with hematocrit of 48? How do all these factors combine?

 

[CoachFergie]

It's quite possible she has stronger legs than many of the guys posting here. I know for sure that some elite female runners, even less muscular looking ones like Alyson Felix can lift way more than I can even though I probably outweigh them. Chicks can be strong!

It's quite possible you could be wrong (again). The more elite the rider the weaker they tend to be as they develop more sport specific abilities. To the point that Chris Boardman could not leg press 40kg (that's getting sand kicked in your face weak) and could could generate 900watts. I have 15 year old girls who are stronger and more powerful than that.

You guys keep talking about elite level cyclists but this was not the question this thread is attempting to answer.

I look forward to the cessation of claims that Basso won the Giro because he allegedly did weights as anecdotes are a poor way to support a claim especially when no evidence is provided that they are true.

There may indeed be a point where additional leg strength is unnecessary. Where is that point? Is it anything more than the minimum required to push the pedals at 400W like some here say, or is it at some point higher than that so that while operating at 400w one is using a small percentage of their leg strength? And is the optimal amount of leg strength going to be the same for a guy with a VO2 of 60 and another guy with VO2 of 80? Or a guy with hematocrit of 34 and a guy with hematocrit of 48? How do all these factors combine?

Go look at an exercise physiology text and see for yourself.

Continue to look stupid believing that raising maximum power means you use a lower percentage of your strength. At 1000watts you use type IIb and higher fibres while at 400 watts (for an elite) you use type I and type IIa fibres. Even if transfer of learning applied (which it doesn't) strength training targets type IIc,d,e... fibres which fatigue within seconds. Fatigue in type I and IIa (if endurance trained) fibres is more metabolic so one is wiser to spend more time training energy and oxygen supply.

 

[DirtyWorks]

context is everything

there is a constant stream of name dropping and buzz wordiness on this thread that will not be convincing to some.
The fundamental problem with the question is the imprecise 'leg strenth.'

Anecdotal evidence: I slashed my training hours on the bike and replaced it with weights. My watts production has gone up. My plateaus are shorter and I get way more power down to the pedals thanks to the gym.
My events are never longer than 2 hours. 'cross and MTB
My one or two rides a week are under 2 hours and I'm killing the fields when I lay off the itensity.

 

[oldborn]

If you want to find out just important leg strength is in cycling, line up against a world class 110 lbs woman cyclist so you can later marvel at how strong her little legs really are. Even EPO won't make your legs any stronger (please don't ask me to explain).

If there are elite cyclists who lift in the gym, they're either very misguided (cyclists aren't exactly rocket scientists or for that matter physiologists), trying to sell something (FRS anyone?), or simply enjoy being in the gym despite knowing that it won't make them faster.

So listen to Fergie y'all, he knows his stuff, and IIRC he trains national level. It took me a couple of years to learn the truth about proper training. Do your SST's, 2 x 20's, and recover instead of wasting time in the gym. If you wanna be better cyclist that is.

That is all.

Irrelevant, this is no a who has a massive legs thread.

How do they knowing that it won;t make them any faster, when there is no such a study?
So all are misguided? Just listen to another way of coaching on top levels.

I listen to him, he is a expert wright? That does do not mean that he is 100% ok, while others are wrong, that is a beauty of this thread. I just saying there is another way of weights training, and again benefits are to debate, without spitting on some authorities.

Stay well!