Leg strength

[CoachFergie]

I found something very common to your "study"

Lance Armstrong's coach, Chris Carmichael, recommends building leg strength with low repetitions and heavy weights in the winter, then switching to the bike for high-repetition power work in the form of intervals up steep hills.

That's nice. Probably gets more dollars per CTS client if he adds a weight training programme, probably a session with a personal trainer each month or at least a new DVD each year. For $US50 you can prob get it signed by Lance. That alone should give you an extra 5-10 watts in your next Triathlon.

But cycling physician and trainer Max Testa says to begin the winter with 3-4 sets of 12-18 reps with medium resistance, then progress to 3 sets of 25 reps followed by 2 sets of 50 reps with light weights. Testa's reason for high-repetition/low resistance leg training: "When you pedal you use a very small percentage of maximum strength on each pedal stroke."

Nice to see Max does other things than teach riders how to safely use EPO.

But some top pros are using weights anyway, so 50% are using it and others dont

50% is pushing it. I would be surprised if it's higher than 15% of Pro riders who do weights in the off season and maybe 1% in season. The gains from weights are lost rapidly without some type of maintenance training. Do you think any of the Pro's at the Tour of Spain are going to hit the gym on the rest day today? Fabian perhaps, no his latest tweet said an easy hour on the bike.

 

[oldborn]

Outside of performing a 200kg deadlift at a Winter Team CSC Camp we have no further information on Cancellara doing weight training. We have no information on what Cav does for training. I have spoken to the coach of the British Track Cycling Team for Athens Olympics and Bradley Wiggin's personal coach who said the enduros did no weight training and that included Cav at the time.


I think I may have mentioned something about specific adaptation to imposed demands. May also have something to do with body type. I would expect Cav and co to have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibres that come very handy in a sprint but a pain in the **** when the road heads upwards.

Hi there!

So you are insulting me, about my English skills, wright?

I have spoken my coach, with Vinokourov, and Basso personal trainers who said that they do some squats (moderate weight) high reps. Actualy Basso coach is nextdoor.

Yes there is also something with muscles fibres, weight and of course bike.

But if they will train more hills they will be far better, but the Q is will they be so good in sprints, that will be interested.

Stay well!

 

[oldborn]

That's nice. Probably gets more dollars per CTS client if he adds a weight training programme, probably a session with a personal trainer each month or at least a new DVD each year. For $US50 you can prob get it signed by Lance. That alone should give you an extra 5-10 watts in your next Triathlon.


Fabian perhaps, no his latest tweet said an easy hour on the bike.

Hi coach!

Well they are doing great job. That s nice is not argument, maybe you can be better instead chatting with me, while your athletes wondering around

Come on tweet, are you believe in that kind of info?

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

I have spoken my coach, with Vinokourov, and Basso personal trainers who said that they do some squats (moderate weight) high reps.

Personal trainers do have a funny habit of saying that squats are a cure for all of humanities ills.

Actualy Basso coach is nextdoor.

What was his name again?

But if they will train more hills they will be far better, but the Q is will they be so good in sprints, that will be interested.

Yes I am sure Cav will prioritise making the top 100 in the Tour over winning that Green jersey.

 

[CoachFergie]

Come on tweet, are you believe in that kind of info?

What! You think that Pro cyclists would try and spread misinformation about how they train?

Like claim they deadlifted 200kg or make a youtube post of themselves doing weights?

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[oldborn]

What was his name again?

Profesor Aldo Sassi, his cell phone +39 141 5256 852, say his nextdoor pal want you to make lasagne for Coach Fergie, i am sure that you guys have something to share

 

[oldborn]

What! You think that Pro cyclists would try and spread misinformation about how they train?

Like claim they deadlifted 200kg or make a youtube post of themselves doing weights?

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are always wright. You said that!

 

[CoachFergie]

Profesor Aldo Sassi, his cell phone +39 141 5256 852, say his nextdoor pal want you to make lasagne for Coach Fergie, i am sure that you guys have something to share

Always keen to swap notes. Lasagne! I'm trying to lose weight

I see we have similar ideas...

PEZ: Coppi said of training; “ride a bike, ride a bike, ride a bike,” do you agree?
Aldo: He should also have said; “but first choose your parents carefully!”

At the start of my career I believed in the gymnasium, but now apart from back and abdominal work, I think that all strength training for the legs should be done on the bike.

 

[CoachFergie]

Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are always wright. You said that!

Ahhh your faulty English has deceived you again.

 

[oldborn]

Ahhh your faulty English has deceived you again.

Haj der!

Wots vrong vit maj ingliš, aj em asking ju agen?

BTW aj em 68 kg, aj em not a sam fet kouč

 

[CoachFergie]

Haj der!

Wots vrong vit maj ingliš, aj em asking ju agen?

BTW aj em 68 kg, aj em not a sam fet kouč

And your grammar isn't any better than your comprehension.

 

[oldborn]

And your grammar isn't any better than your comprehension.

Hooooraaaaaaaa! You are pulling more and more heavy artillery

Stay well Ausssie!

P.S. Tell me later story about lasagne thing with old good Aldo!

 

[oldborn]

Hi there!

I was talking with four coaches about weight training enigma. Yes they are doing it with some prety good domestic riders and triathletes. About study, they agree that there is no such a thing. They are old school coaches. How can you comment it, Fergie.

P.S. What about lasagne

 

[CoachFergie]

Hi there!

I was talking with four coaches about weight training enigma. Yes they are doing it with some prety good domestic riders and triathletes. About study, they agree that there is no such a thing. They are old school coaches. How can you comment it, Fergie.

P.S. What about lasagne

Every coach has to make decisions. I base mine on the evidence that is out there. I have worked with 6 UCI World Champions and currently have 5 riders ranked in the top 15 in various UCI events.

What do these Old School Coaches base their decisions on?

 

[oldborn]

Every coach has to make decisions. I base mine on the evidence that is out there. I have worked with 6 UCI World Champions and currently have 5 riders ranked in the top 15 in various UCI events.

What do these Old School Coaches base their decisions on?

Well in general they said high reps squats with per example 25kg for me, are going to have similar movement but with more resistance like pedaling on bike. It seems very logical. Probably they base their decisions by their athletes results, which are prety good, wright? If something is working well there is no need to change it, maybe they will be better without weight?

That will be study with top athletes not with guys like you and me

 

[CoachFergie]

Well in general they said high reps squats with per example 25kg for me, are going to have similar movement but with more resistance like pedaling on bike. It seems very logical. Probably they base their decisions by their athletes results, which are prety good, wright? If something is working well there is no need to change it, maybe they will be better without weight?

Research on muscle activation between a squat and deadlift exercise shows very similar movement but completely different muscle activation.

Higher resistance? It's like SFR, SE or low rpm training. People claim it develops strength. Anyone with a power meter can see that 350watts for 20mins is 350watts for 20mins whether you are pedalling at 35rpm, 90rpm or 120rpm. Any cycling event over 1000m pretty rapidly becomes an aerobic exercise and is performed at <35% of ones maximal power. Strength doesn't come into the equation.

The SRM data of World Class Sprinters show that the well coached ones don't hit their peak powers in a flying 200m over 10sec, a Kilo rider is 200-400 watts off his peak power at the start and pursuiters are 400-600 watts off their peak power at the start. So if Elites don't use their peak power in a racing why should an endurance athlete train their peak power or strength when all aspects of cycling are more about the average power one can produce?

 

[Polyarmour]

Coach Fergie you have the patience of a saint.

 

[stephens]

So if Elites don't use their peak power in a racing why should an endurance athlete train their peak power or strength when all aspects of cycling are more about the average power one can produce?

I always assumed the reason was because it's always easier to operate at a lower percentage of one's peak, right?

After all, isn't that the basic reason that men are better at all sports than women? Even the one's that require very little strength, the men are using comparatively lower percentage of their available strength to complete the task and therefore have extra energy left over for all the other parts of the task (calculating, balance, whatnot).

Now, if it can be shown that when one increases their peak they somehow, get worse at operating at sub-peak compared to their previous ability, then I'm all ears. So far I think all we've heard is that the time spent trying to increase the peak would be better spent just riding along at easier efforts over and over and over and over and over again for the rest of one's life.

 

[CoachFergie]

I always assumed the reason was because it's always easier to operate at a lower percentage of one's peak, right?

If we used the same muscle fibres to ride at 400 watts as we do to ride at 1000watts.

After all, isn't that the basic reason that men are better at all sports than women?

No that's because boobs are un-aerodynamic and curvaceous hips, as nice as they may be, have to be carted uphill. There is no difference between and male and a female muscle fibre.

Even the one's that require very little strength, the men are using comparatively lower percentage of their available strength to complete the task and therefore have extra energy left over for all the other parts of the task (calculating, balance, whatnot).

Now, if it can be shown that when one increases their peak they somehow, get worse at operating at sub-peak compared to their previous ability, then I'm all ears.

Levin et al 2009! In a Kilo no less! Average power for a Kilo sits around 50-60% of maximal power.

So far I think all we've heard is that the time spent trying to increase the peak would be better spent just riding along at easier efforts over and over and over and over and over again for the rest of one's life.

What do they call that again, oh yeah, bike riding

 

[marathon marke]

I am finding this thread fascinating (and I do agree that you are quite patient ), but I do have one question regarding this statement:

If we used the same muscle fibres to ride at 400 watts as we do to ride at 1000watts.

Please excuse me if I'm not understanding the concept here, but isn't this one reason why we practive intervals, so that our average speed will increase? Isn't that happening because we have applied more power to the pedals during these intervals, and (I'm assuming) also using different muscles fibers?

 

[CoachFergie]

Please excuse me if I'm not understanding the concept here, but isn't this one reason why we practive intervals, so that our average speed will increase? Isn't that happening because we have applied more power to the pedals during these intervals, and (I'm assuming) also using different muscles fibers?

Its a matter of specificity and adaptations to imposed demands.

Say a riders max power was 1050 watts.

Max time they could ride 1000watts is 10sec using fast twitch fibres

Max time they could sustain 350watts is 20min using slow twitch muscle fibres

If they did 10 x 10sec sprints at 980watts they would be training their fast twitch fibres.

If they did 2 x 20min at 340 watts they would be training their slow twitch fibres.

The sprint session would if done at an appropriate intensity would have fatigued the fast twitch fibres leading to adaptations to the short term power. Seeing the slow twitch fibres have not been recruited this type of session (or strength training which targets fast twitch muscle fibres) has no affect on medium to long term power.

The 2 x 20min session if done at an appropriate intensity would have fatigued the slow twitch fibres leading to adaptations to the long term power. Seeing that the fast twitch fibres have not been recruited this type of session (no matter what gear you do it in so bye bye SE, SFR or low rpm workouts, even if the "Pros" do them) will have no effect on short term power.

There is an intermediate fast twitch muscle fibre that responds to the type of training done. All sprint and it takes on short term power characteristics. All endurance and it takes on endurance characteristics. This is why sprinters avoid long miles and roadies don't do a huge volume of sprint training. So yes we do intervals and efforts but we need to target demands of our goal event.

This also applies to duration. 4mins at 400 watts on a climb is not the same as 400 watts on the track. On a climb you are on a road bike, you can sit more upright, have the ability to change gear and position and tend to hold a more constant wattage. On the track you are tucked down, have one gear and your power drops in the bends and increases in the straights and once seated shouldn't alter your position.

Types of races vary as well. We compared a Cat 2 road race data with the published results (Ebert, 200X) of a UCI women's World Cup event. Same average power but two very different power profiles. The Cat 2 road in a bunch at a very steady tempo and it came down to a bunch sprint. The women's race was far slower on the flat sections but really attacked the climbs with far more L5 and L6 time than the Cat 2 data. The training for either event of a 2km uphill TT verse a 4km pursuit on an 250m indoor track would all be quite different reflecting the different demands of each event.

 

[oldborn]

Coach Fergie you have the patience of a saint.

Well he is the man!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Its a matter of specificity and adaptations to imposed demands.

And as Fergie well knows, the key supporting physiological adaptations to enable the ST fibres to sustain higher power for longer are enhanced mitochondral density, increased capillarisation for better supply of blood to the fibres, reduced diffusion distance for exchange of gases and key metabolites, increase VO2max and so on. Training that increases strength tends to have a reverse or negative impact on these fundamental supporting physiological attributes for sustainable aerobic performance.

In any case, all this talk of Pros and weights is a bit of a laugh. Even if some did a few weights here and there, is it the weights, or the 30,000km per year of bike training and racing that's developing their capabilities?

 

[oldborn]

And as Fergie well knows, the key supporting physiological adaptations to enable the ST fibres to sustain higher power for longer are enhanced mitochondral density, increased capillarisation for better supply of blood to the fibres, reduced diffusion distance for exchange of gases and key metabolites, increase VO2max and so on. Training that increases strength tends to have a reverse or negative impact on these fundamental supporting physiological attributes for sustainable aerobic performance.

In any case, all this talk of Pros and weights is a bit of a laugh. Even if some did a few weights here and there, is it the weights, or the 30,000km per year of bike training and racing that's developing their capabilities?

Mitochondral what? Give me a break, are you some doctor with PhD in Chemistry and you understand it?

Yes 30.000 km per year! They are doing weights some of them, question is does that improve their performance. Could you explain it? English please.

 

[CoachFergie]

Could you explain it? English please.

No it doesn't.