Leg strength

[oldborn]

Training that increases strength tends to have a reverse or negative impact on these fundamental supporting physiological attributes for sustainable aerobic performance.

Do you have any scinetificaly proof for that, if yes please explain it to me with Mitochondral part as well.

Or Fergie can

 

[CoachFergie]

Do you have any scinetificaly proof for that, if yes please explain it to me with Mitochondral part as well.

Or Fergie can

McCardle Katch and Katch 2010 or Powers and Howley 2010 should be able to clear up most misconceptions people have about strength and it's role in cycling.

 

[Rip:30]

Its a matter of specificity and adaptations to imposed demands.

Say a riders max power was 1050 watts.

Max time they could ride 1000watts is 10sec using fast twitch fibres

Max time they could sustain 350watts is 20min using slow twitch muscle fibres

If they did 10 x 10sec sprints at 980watts they would be training their fast twitch fibres.

If they did 2 x 20min at 340 watts they would be training their slow twitch fibres.

The sprint session would if done at an appropriate intensity would have fatigued the fast twitch fibres leading to adaptations to the short term power. Seeing the slow twitch fibres have not been recruited this type of session (or strength training which targets fast twitch muscle fibres) has no affect on medium to long term power.

The 2 x 20min session if done at an appropriate intensity would have fatigued the slow twitch fibres leading to adaptations to the long term power. Seeing that the fast twitch fibres have not been recruited this type of session (no matter what gear you do it in so bye bye SE, SFR or low rpm workouts, even if the "Pros" do them) will have no effect on short term power.

There is an intermediate fast twitch muscle fibre that responds to the type of training done. All sprint and it takes on short term power characteristics. All endurance and it takes on endurance characteristics. This is why sprinters avoid long miles and roadies don't do a huge volume of sprint training. So yes we do intervals and efforts but we need to target demands of our goal event.

This also applies to duration. 4mins at 400 watts on a climb is not the same as 400 watts on the track. On a climb you are on a road bike, you can sit more upright, have the ability to change gear and position and tend to hold a more constant wattage. On the track you are tucked down, have one gear and your power drops in the bends and increases in the straights and once seated shouldn't alter your position.

Types of races vary as well. We compared a Cat 2 road race data with the published results (Ebert, 200X) of a UCI women's World Cup event. Same average power but two very different power profiles. The Cat 2 road in a bunch at a very steady tempo and it came down to a bunch sprint. The women's race was far slower on the flat sections but really attacked the climbs with far more L5 and L6 time than the Cat 2 data. The training for either event of a 2km uphill TT verse a 4km pursuit on an 250m indoor track would all be quite different reflecting the different demands of each event.

So how does your body know when to turn off and on different types of muscle fibers in response to different duration and intensities of effort, as you are implying? What is the neuromuscular basis for this?

 

[oldborn]

McCardle Katch and Katch 2010 or Powers and Howley 2010 should be able to clear up most misconceptions people have about strength and it's role in cycling.

This is not a relevant answer, and who are they BTW?

 

[CoachFergie]

So how does your body know when to turn off and on different types of muscle fibers in response to different duration and intensities of effort, as you are implying? What is the neuromuscular basis for this?

It would be terribly inefficient to recruit all available muscle every time you turned the pedal. A bit like turning on all the lights in your home to look for your lost keys rather than one light at a time.


Also in reality there are several different types of fast twitch fibre that go from more aerobic to more anaerobic and alactic and you are dealing with very limited energy supplies especially when talking strength where ATP stores and Creatine Phosphate stores can only supply energy for seconds but takes minutes to be replenished. These are the fibres trained in the gym while as I have shown from SRM data were don't use these fibres to a great extent if at all when cycling even in the track sprint events.

 

[CoachFergie]

This is not a relevant answer, and who are they BTW?

Research indicates as muscle fibre hypertrophy occurs the mitochondrial volume decreases. Mitochondria are the part of the cell where energy is produced. The more mitochondria the more energy that can be supplied to the working muscle. For any event over 750m where aerobic supply of energy predominates it might just come in handy to have as many mitochondria as possible.

Those are two common undergraduate exercise physiology text's but in all honesty you can find this information on Wikipedia but a common text would indicate that they are acceptable sources of information in any area.

 

[oldborn]

Hey Fergie, I was with Aldo (great lasagne) and he told me that Basso prior his Giro wins was doing 2 hours gym works (not just legs) and after 150km ride on two mountains, Basso is not a fast twich fibres man.

Well Aldo has a unique way to train.

 

[CoachFergie]

Hey Fergie, I was with Aldo (great lasagne) and he told me that Basso prior his Giro wins was doing 2 hours gym works (not just legs) and after 150km ride on two mountains, Basso is not a fast twich fibres man.

Well Aldo has a unique way to train.

Of course he did

PEZ: Coppi said of training; “ride a bike, ride a bike, ride a bike,” do you agree?
Aldo: He should also have said; “but first choose your parents carefully!”

At the start of my career I believed in the gymnasium, but now apart from back and abdominal work, I think that all strength training for the legs should be done on the bike.

Not that it matters to this argument but how did Basso, Evans and Rodgers all go in the Tour?

 

[oldborn]

Research indicates as muscle fibre hypertrophy occurs the mitochondrial volume decreases. Mitochondria are the part of the cell where energy is produced. The more mitochondria the more energy that can be supplied to the working muscle. For any event over 750m where aerobic supply of energy predominates it might just come in handy to have as many mitochondria as possible.

Those are two common undergraduate exercise physiology text's but in all honesty you can find this information on Wikipedia but a common text would indicate that they are acceptable sources of information in any area.

Thanks for that Mitochondrial thing. If you think on Adenosine triphosphate as a product of Mitochondria, and Krebs Cycle, and i now that you think, does anyone except Sky Team doctors has a some clue what is relationship beetwen gym work and cycling.

 

[oldborn]

Of course he did


Not that it matters to this argument but how did Basso, Evans and Rodgers all go in the Tour?

Basso did not have a goal to have a two performance peaks in season, his first goal was Giro and gym help him or not? And for other two guys i do not know. Evans is Aussie so .....

 

[CoachFergie]

Thanks for that Mitochondrial thing. If you think on Adenosine triphosphate as a product of Mitochondria, and Krebs Cycle, and i now that you think, does anyone except Sky Team doctors has a some clue what is relationship beetwen gym work and cycling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate might clear up any misconceptions you have about ATP biosynthesis.

Apart from Greg Henderson (who trains by his personal coach) I wouldn't be claiming that Team Sky have had any success this year. Wiggins and EBV have never had such a bad season.

You don't know Evans and Rogers? Hmmmmmmm

We don't know if Basso improved from any alleged weight training sessions. There are no further updates on the Mapei site detailing his training and SRM files to compare the 2009 Giro with this year. Be a good boy and ask Aldo why he has changed his philosophy on strength training since that Pez interview. I trust he is feeling better to be enjoying some Lasange.

 

[Rip:30]

It would be terribly inefficient to recruit all available muscle every time you turned the pedal. A bit like turning on all the lights in your home to look for your lost keys rather than one light at a time.


Also in reality there are several different types of fast twitch fibre that go from more aerobic to more anaerobic and alactic and you are dealing with very limited energy supplies especially when talking strength where ATP stores and Creatine Phosphate stores can only supply energy for seconds but takes minutes to be replenished. These are the fibres trained in the gym while as I have shown from SRM data were don't use these fibres to a great extent if at all when cycling even in the track sprint events.

Uh, duh, obviously you use more motor units when you produce more force.
That's not an answer about how fiber types could be recruited differentially.

And how could you discriminate which fibers are being fired when using SRM?

 

[oldborn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate might clear up any misconceptions you have about ATP biosynthesis.

Apart from Greg Henderson (who trains by his personal coach) I wouldn't be claiming that Team Sky have had any success this year. Wiggins and EBV have never had such a bad season.

You don't know Evans and Rogers? Hmmmmmmm

We don't know if Basso improved from any alleged weight training sessions. There are no further updates on the Mapei site detailing his training and SRM files to compare the 2009 Giro with this year. Be a good boy and ask Aldo why he has changed his philosophy on strength training since that Pez interview. I trust he is feeling better to be enjoying some Lasange.

Hey Fergie this is not alleged, Basso did it, is that help him i do not know, but he climbs very well this year. Who said you that Aldo change his philosophy, he just adopt new things and give less time on gym work importance. That does do not mean that he do not train his athletes in gym anymore.

Yes they had bad season, i did not claim oposite. I just saying that their doctors knew relevant thing about Mitochondrial things and Kregs, only doctors not coaches, you might have good knowledge about it but this is it. So doctors do those things, coaches trains, or you have a microscope as well?

Lasagne was

 

[CoachFergie]

Uh, duh, obviously you use more motor units when you produce more force.
That's not an answer about how fiber types could be recruited differentially.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_unit_recruitment

And how could you discriminate which fibers are being fired when using SRM?

You would need EMG to discriminate between which fibres were being recruited but do you think the same muscle fibres are being used sprinting for 10sec at 1800watts as you use to ride 270sec at 500watts?

One would also expect that the rider who could sustain 10sec at 1800watts would not have the fast-slow twitch ratios to sustain 270sec at 500watts and vice versa.

 

[CoachFergie]

Hey Fergie this is not alleged, Basso did it, is that help him i do not know, but he climbs very well this year. Who said you that Aldo change his philosophy, he just adopt new things and give less time on gym work importance. That does do not mean that he do not train his athletes in gym anymore.

I didn't ask for your opinion, I asked for Aldo's rationale for going back on on his comments...

PEZ: Coppi said of training; “ride a bike, ride a bike, ride a bike,” do you agree?
Aldo: He should also have said; “but first choose your parents carefully!”

At the start of my career I believed in the gymnasium, but now apart from back and abdominal work, I think that all strength training for the legs should be done on the bike.

Also why no new files from Basso have been posted on the Mapei site since March. The aim of posting his files was to show his comeback was clean. Does this mean there is something to hide?

Yes they had bad season, i did not claim oposite. I just saying that their doctors knew relevant thing about Mitochondrial things and Kregs, only doctors not coaches, you might have good knowledge about it but this is it. So doctors do those things, coaches trains, or you have a microscope as well?

I am a Post Graduate Student at the University of Otago School of Medicine but that has no bearing on what we know about cycling physiology. I coach several doctors and despite their understanding of their special areas they have limited knowledge of exercise physiology (not part of a Doctors education unless they pursue sports qualifications).

 

[Rip:30]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_unit_recruitment



You would need EMG to discriminate between which fibres were being recruited but do you think the same muscle fibres are being used sprinting for 10sec at 1800watts as you use to ride 270sec at 500watts?

One would also expect that the rider who could sustain 10sec at 1800watts would not have the fast-slow twitch ratios to sustain 270sec at 500watts and vice versa.

None of this puts forth even a speculative mechanism by which the neuromuscular system could selectivity choose to activate different fiber types at different times. The easiest answer to your sprinting question is that it's simplify more alpha motor neurons firing at a higher rate compared to the 500w effort. Said another way my question is are the different fiber types spatially organized in a muscle, and are they partitioned into motor units which your CNS can selectively call upon by firing specific alpha neurons? This seems unlikely because I'm pretty sure each motor unit is a mix of all the various fiber types, although as you point out different individuals and different muscles within an individual have different ratios of fiber type.

 

[CoachFergie]

This seems unlikely because I'm pretty sure each motor unit is a mix of all the various fiber types,

Motor unit innervates either fast or slow twitch muscle fibres. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_unit. The harder you go the more motor units you recruit. Also the harder you go the more fast twitch fibres get recruited. These have a higher energy cost which is why you can't sustain your type 2 b, c, d, e.... contractions for very long and for a 270sec effort your better off using slow twitch and type 2a fibres.

This is why even sprinters don't try to hit their max power in a flying 200m because they would fatigue and fade badly over the final 100m and Chris Hoy for all of his 90kg of muscle is still 90lbs short of the 90kg weight group women's World Record for the Squat and about 400lb short of the men's record.

I would also expect that if you were to do a muscle biopsy of an Olympic Weightlifter you would find a higher percentage of type IId,e,g... muscle fibres. A BMX riders or Man 1 of a team sprint would have more type IIc,d,e, a Chris Hot type Kilo rider more Type IIb,c,d a pursuiter, criterium rider more Type I and Type IIa and a Lance Armstrong or Contador more type I and with specific training they would be more efficient at meeting the demands of their chosen events. Otherwise in theory Lance could hit the gym and put on muscle taking him to 90kg and challenge Chris Hoy or the inverse Hoy could put in a year of 800-1200km a week riding, drop to 65kg and challenge Alberto for the Tour.

 

[oldborn]

I didn't ask for your opinion, I asked for Aldo's rationale for going back on on his comments...

I answer it, read it again Fergie, everything changing so Aldo change his approach

Also why no new files from Basso have been posted on the Mapei site since March. The aim of posting his files was to show his comeback was clean. Does this mean there is something to hide? [/QUOTE]
He has nothing to hide, if he is going to gym that does not mean he is stoned again, does anybody else posts their files? No, he win Giro this year.


I am a Post Graduate Student at the University of Otago School of Medicine but that has no bearing on what we know about cycling physiology. I coach several doctors and despite their understanding of their special areas they have limited knowledge of exercise physiology (not part of a Doctors education unless they pursue sports qualifications). [/QUOTE]

Yes i know that, it is on your blog as well as other interesting things. Do you coach specialist in sports medicine, except Plastic surgeons? I was talking about those specialist, why plastic surgeons or cancer specialist should now anything about cycling?

 

[CoachFergie]

I answer it, read it again Fergie, everything changing so Aldo change his approach

I don't want your opinion, I want Aldo's. He was for weights, then against and now you claim he is for them again. I want to know his rationale as a Doctor.

He has nothing to hide, if he is going to gym that does not mean he is stoned again, does anybody else posts their files? No, he win Giro this year.

He posted his files for 2009, if he has nothing to hide why are the files not up for the 2010 Giro or Tour?

 

[ihavenolimbs]

Some guy's theory I read off the Webs

Uh, duh, obviously you use more motor units when you produce more force.
That's not an answer about how fiber types could be recruited differentially.

And how could you discriminate which fibers are being fired when using SRM?

AFAIK, initially, there is no strong preference for FT vs. ST recruitment, even for aerobic exercise. Apparently, there isn't even a way the brain can even innervate only the STs (or FTs), since all types are bundled together. But local inhibitory signals, due to muscle fibre fatigue, reduce subsequent recruitment of FT (since ST fatigue more slowly).

 

[CoachFergie]

AFAIK, initially, there is no strong preference for FT vs. ST recruitment, even for aerobic exercise. Apparently, there isn't even a way the brain can even innervate only the STs (or FTs), since all types are bundled together. But local inhibitory signals, due to muscle fibre fatigue, reduce subsequent recruitment of FT (since ST fatigue more slowly).

A fellow Kiwi, did you race the Tour de Taieri on the weekend?

 

[oldborn]

I don't want your opinion, I want Aldo's. He was for weights, then against and now you claim he is for them again. I want to know his rationale as a Doctor.

He posted his files for 2009, if he has nothing to hide why are the files not up for the 2010 Giro or Tour?

Yes he was for weights, and he is now as well but only in pre season workouts. One explanation is that, in gym doing squats as we know we produce similar movement but diferent usage of muscles groups, and there will be no improvement except you transform that power with easy or harder ride, yes? He realize that, like old school coach. Weights still help correct things like strength imbalances though, like power crancks has . Well this is the reason why he kept this way of coaching still, only in preseason, with limited time. The benefits are still to debate.

All other strenght training he coach on bike, belive me or not with some 45 RPM high gears, 6-8% hill. His words: “This builds specific strength because the strength limiter in endurance cycling isn’t just muscular. More important, is the extent of blood perfusion into the muscles. His method “places a high tension in the muscles for a long duration, but their contractions are supported by the aerobic system”

At the very least, one shouldn't confuse the relationship between force and power. Greater muscular strength from weight training increases the ability to produce force, but cycling is very, very rarely limited by force, but rather limited by power.

Furthemore, at least 3 books about cycling i read (plus one article with BBox Piedrick Fedrigo women coach, she is American but living in France ex Olimpic) did mentioned something about gym workouts, and those are not 19th century books.

How can you comment it?

About Basso UCI has his files, ok?

 

[CoachFergie]

Yes he was for weights, and he is now as well but only in pre season workouts. One explanation is that, in gym doing squats as we know we produce similar movement but diferent usage of muscles groups, and there will be no improvement except you transform that power with easy or harder ride, yes?

No. There is no transfer of learning. Learning German doesn't mean you will also learn French as well. Bompa has waffled on for years about transfer of strength to sports specific training but no one has ever provided any data showing anyone has done this.

He realize that, like old school coach. Weights still help correct things like strength imbalances though, like power crancks has .

What methods does he use to assess any imbalance and how does he propose that getting someone to train another skill is going to benefit cycling when as mentioned above there is no transfer of learning.

Well this is the reason why he kept this way of coaching still, only in preseason, with limited time. The benefits are still to debate.

Yes indeed.

All other strenght training he coach on bike, belive me or not with some 45 RPM high gears, 6-8% hill. His words: “This builds specific strength because the strength limiter in endurance cycling isn’t just muscular. More important, is the extent of blood perfusion into the muscles. His method “places a high tension in the muscles for a long duration, but their contractions are supported by the aerobic system”

These intervals are done at 250-400 watts which is <35% of most riders maximal power. Aldo should check his definition of strength and force. There is nothing special about these intervals. Dr Andrew Coggan assessed this type of training (SFR, SE, High Torque, Low Cadence) and found none of the claimed benefits. Riders are better training at the cadence they intend to race.

At the very least, one shouldn't confuse the relationship between force and power. Greater muscular strength from weight training increases the ability to produce force, but cycling is very, very rarely limited by force, but rather limited by power.

What do you think we have been trying to tell you

Furthemore, at least 3 books about cycling i read (plus one article with BBox Piedrick Fedrigo women coach, she is American but living in France ex Olimpic) did mentioned something about gym workouts, and those are not 19th century books.

Anyone can write a book on cycling just as anyone can write something on the Internet.

 

[oldborn]

No. There is no transfer of learning. Learning German doesn't mean you will also learn French as well. Bompa has waffled on for years about transfer of strength to sports specific training but no one has ever provided any data showing anyone has done this.


What methods does he use to assess any imbalance and how does he propose that getting someone to train another skill is going to benefit cycling when as mentioned above there is no transfer of learning.

Yes indeed.

These intervals are done at 250-400 watts which is <35% of most riders maximal power. Aldo should check his definition of strength and force. There is nothing special about these intervals. Dr Andrew Coggan assessed this type of training (SFR, SE, High Torque, Low Cadence) and found none of the claimed benefits. Riders are better training at the cadence they intend to race.

What do you think we have been trying to tell you

Anyone can write a book on cycling just as anyone can write something on the Internet.

Lance, Cancellara, Basso, and Aldo Sassi all have wrong, i will ask my self a few questions.

So we have Fergie against Sassi i would beleive Sassi, and you?

 

[PortableDave]

Lance, Cancellara, Basso, and Aldo Sassi all have wrong, i will ask my self a few questions.

So we have Fergie against Sassi i would beleive Sassi, and you?

You're going round in circles, Fergie talks science and asks you to produce proof and you fall back to "<insert pros name here> does it, so you must be wrong". Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence?