Leg strength

[CoachFergie]

Hi Tasmanian!

What part of not Australian didn't you comprehend.

What about study with 14 people, you must admit that is not realy a study, maybe resources etc could results with such end.

That is a larger sample size than most research on weight training. It was published, they found a statistically significant difference. Perhaps you are not qualified or experienced to comment on research.

You said that you never coach your athletes to do squats etc.

Where did I say that?

Do you think that type of aproach are wrong, or not proven yet? And what about other coaches do you know their aproach?

100 coaches, 100 different approaches.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I believe that there is no clear cut answer to the question.

Which is pretty telling, after all this time and study, there is no obvious benefit to improving endurance cycling performance by training to increase strength. I mean if it really made a difference, why doesn't it simply show up consistently and unequivocally?

And yet there is excellent evidence that riding a bike (using the fundamental principles Fergie mentioned) will improve your ability to ride a bike. Significantly.

So what training do people want to do?

Ah - let's all head to the gym

 

[battery89]

Yeah leg strength matters heaps. Look at Gesink/Schleck/Contador.. massive legs!!! Oh and thor and farrar should be dominating cavendish in sprints cause they have way bigger legs also!!!

Ride your bikes, train under the principles that Alex and other posters have mentioned and you will get faster.

 

[Polyarmour]

Yeah leg strength matters heaps. Look at Gesink/Schleck/Contador.. massive legs!!! Oh and thor and farrar should be dominating cavendish in sprints cause they have way bigger legs also!!!

Ride your bikes, train under the principles that Alex and other posters have mentioned and you will get faster.

You're joking about those massive legs on Gesink/Schleck and Contador I hope? They are so skinny I often wonder how they can cycle at all.

 

[CoachFergie]

That has to be photoshopped. How can those two weaklings be riding away from the weight trained Lance Armstrong

 

[stephens]

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone here has been talking about weight training to increase size (aka bulking up). We've been talking about leg strength.

 

[CoachFergie]

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone here has been talking about weight training to increase size (aka bulking up). We've been talking about leg strength.

Two ways to get stronger. Either you increase the size of the muscle fibre or you improve the message from the brain to the specific muscle fibre to contract. This message is so specific that exercise physiologist Dr Andrew Coggan has stated that fibres along side those specific fibres will not be affected when specific fibres are called on to perform work.

 

[oldborn]

Ok, i got it you are from New Zealand, it so close to Tasmania anyway. Why black people are not good in cycling, or they have no chance to train, like black swimers?

Ok, you say that you train yours athletes to do squats..etc, wright? So you are against it and simultaneosly have a Klichko gym discount

You also said that every coach has diferent aproach to that subject, can you comment that other coaches have better results with their athletes with more gym schedule than you?

And what you sugest me, to do or not to do some squats? is this a waste of time or it can help? I feel a improvement, but if you tell me to not doing it, i will think about it.

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

Ok, you say that you train yours athletes to do squats..etc, wright? So you are against it and simultaneosly have a Klichko gym discount

No confusion at all. I train several track cyclists and Downhill cyclists who do perform at >90% of their peak power and it is prudent to have them develop strength. For any cyclist who races further than 750m strength is not a limit to performance.

You also said that every coach has diferent aproach to that subject, can you comment that other coaches have better results with their athletes with more gym schedule than you?

Yup, coaches who claim that strength training improves performance in bike racing are doing their clients a disservice.

And what you sugest me, to do or not to do some squats? is this a waste of time or it can help? I feel a improvement, but if you tell me to not doing it, i will think about it.

What are your goals?

 

[oldborn]

No confusion at all. I train several track cyclists and Downhill cyclists who do perform at >90% of their peak power and it is prudent to have them develop strength. For any cyclist who races further than 750m strength is not a limit to performance.


Yup, coaches who claim that strength training improves performance in bike racing are doing their clients a disservice.


What are your goals?

So this type of training is only beneficial for trackies and downhiller? How do you know that Cavendish or Fararr are not exactly gym lovers?

So how many of them, half of them or minority?

Let s say that i am now more in triathletes waters, so my goals are to stay on wheel for 40km olimpic distance on 2% or 3% small hills, or flat with 32 km/h average speed on those hills, and about 37 km/h on flat.
Second goal is to ride 90 km at 30 km/h average without any drafting (medium hills, flat) on half ironman distances.

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

So this type of training is only beneficial for trackies and downhiller? How do you know that Cavendish or Fararr are not exactly gym lovers?

Beneficial is still up for discussion. I think it is prudent.

For all I know Cav and Farrar do use weights. Question is whether it is improving or limiting their progress as a bike rider.

Let s say that i am now more in triathletes waters, so my goals are to stay on wheel for 40km olimpic distance on 2% or 3% small hills, or flat with 32 km/h average speed on those hills, and about 37 km/h on flat.
Second goal is to ride 90 km at 30 km/h average without any drafting (medium hills, flat) on half ironman distances.

On the flat are you able to ride at 42kph?

 

[oldborn]

Beneficial is still up for discussion. I think it is prudent.

For all I know Cav and Farrar do use weights. Question is whether it is improving or limiting their progress as a bike rider.

On the flat are you able to ride at 42kph?

Hi there! Do you ever sleep?

Discussion wich end with study

They are doing fine, don t you think so?

I will be pro with 42 km/h, i can hold it for 40 sec solo, in pack i would be glad with 37 km/h, and for long distances 90 km solo ride i will bw hapy with 30 km/h.

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

They are doing fine, don t you think so?

This is why celebrity endorsement of a concept is pointless. No one here has the slightest clue how these Pro's train so to claim that they weight train because they are fast in a sprint (Cav whose max power is quite low) or have the bigger muscle's (Cancellara) is a lame argument.

I will be pro with 42 km/h, i can hold it for 40 sec solo, in pack i would be glad with 37 km/h, and for long distances 90 km solo ride i will bw hapy with 30 km/h.

But you can ride at 42kph. Therefore you have all the strength you need. I would be training to sustain your goal speed for the event. That is what limits you.

 

[Polyarmour]

....But you can ride at 42kph. Therefore you have all the strength you need. I would be training to sustain your goal speed for the event. That is what limits you.

Great point.

 

[oldborn]

This is why celebrity endorsement of a concept is pointless. No one here has the slightest clue how these Pro's train so to claim that they weight train because they are fast in a sprint (Cav whose max power is quite low) or have the bigger muscle's (Cancellara) is a lame argument.
But you can ride at 42kph. Therefore you have all the strength you need. I would be training to sustain your goal speed for the event. That is what limits you.

It is good enough for me that those guys train squats as you also mentioned, wright? They are top pro riders with that kind of training, their results are only relevant thing here. Yes we do not know details but we can see results with that kind of training (would they be better with another coach, maybe Cav would take per example 6 instead 5 final sprints ) when Petachi strugles to beat Cav (Cav is not my favorite).

Thanks for advise

 

[stephens]

But you can ride at 42kph. Therefore you have all the strength you need. I would be training to sustain your goal speed for the event. That is what limits you.

This is where I have trouble following your logic. Do you think the above uniquely applies to cycling? Because most other sports training features increasing one's maximum one-time (or short-time) effort as a component of maximizing his endurance at sub-maximal efforts. Even marathon runners, for instance, do sprint work on the track. And increasingly, elite distance runners do strength training as well (in the manner described by the articles I linked to earlier that you dismissed offhand):their coaches must believe it will provide them more benefit than additional running miles would.

 

[CoachFergie]

It is good enough for me that those guys train squats as you also mentioned, wright? They are top pro riders with that kind of training, their results are only relevant thing here. Yes we do not know details but we can see results with that kind of training (would they be better with another coach, maybe Cav would take per example 6 instead 5 final sprints ) when Petachi strugles to beat Cav (Cav is not my favorite).

I have no idea if Cav, Farrar or Pettachi train with weights. What results with weight training? There are none reported.

 

[CoachFergie]

This is where I have trouble following your logic. Do you think the above uniquely applies to cycling?

No I would expect every sport has a similar force - duration curve. Athletes achieve can hold their maximum for 1-3 sec then the drop off is huge.

Because most other sports training features increasing one's maximum one-time (or short-time) effort as a component of maximizing his endurance at sub-maximal efforts.

If they are training at over 10% of their race pace then it is a wasted effort. Training mucle fibres, energy systems and CNS recruitment that is not taxed during the actual event.

Even marathon runners, for instance, do sprint work on the track. And increasingly, elite distance runners do strength training as well (in the manner described by the articles I linked to earlier that you dismissed offhand):their coaches must believe it will provide them more benefit than additional running miles would.

If only belief could win races.

Do you have any physiological basis for strength training because appeals to authority and celebrity endorsement is a bit amateur.

 

[oldborn]

For all I know Cav and Farrar do use weights. Question is whether it ...

But you said that, wright? English is not my spoken language but i can understand this.
What results Cav have or Pettachi, come on coach they are top pros using weights training with superb results (or 5 or 6 stage winnings are not relevant coz some doctor did not sign it), or not by your opinion?

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

But you said that, wright? English is not my spoken language but i can understand this.
What results Cav have or Pettachi, come on coach they are top pros using weights training with superb results (or 5 or 6 stage winnings are not relevant coz some doctor did not sign it), or not by your opinion?

Stay well!

English is my first language and I didn't say either did weight training.

Seriously, is the basis of how you train: because Pettachi does it

 

[oldborn]

Beneficial is still up for discussion. I think it is prudent.

For all I know Cav and Farrar do use weights. Question is whether it is improving or limiting their progress as a bike rider.

Hi there!

Well could you translate it on English? Maybe i am wrong. Those are your words, not mine.

No i do not follow Pettachi, or Cav way of training, all i say is if he use weights and do some squats that means there is some beneficial from it. And you must admit that those guys know how to win.

Stay well!

P.S. Come on New Zealand english accent, are you joking, this is not real thing.

 

[CoachFergie]

No i do not follow Pettachi, or Cav way of training, all i say is if he use weights and do some squats that means there is some beneficial from it. And you must admit that those guys know how to win.

I have no idea if they do or don't use weights.

Answer my question, would you base a training programme on what a Professional bike rider does? Why would you assume that being able to ride a bike fast is the same as knowing how to ride a bike fast.

 

[oldborn]

I have no idea if they do or don't use weights.

Answer my question, would you base a training programme on what a Professional bike rider does? Why would you assume that being able to ride a bike fast is the same as knowing how to ride a bike fast.

Hi there!

Now you have no idea, but you wrote it? Or my English sucks

I allready did, i am not following pro rider programme, coz i do not have a 6 hours of just to ride a bike.
Yes those are two different things, and i did not say a word about it.

I am just saying and please correct me if i am wrong, that Cav or Cancellara are not trackies (coz you wrote that for guy who race more than 750m weights are not beneficial, wright?) but they still manage to finish and wins couple of stage in TDF, or Paris-Roubaix with weights training.

And what is more important, they climb, not as fast as Sastre or Schleck but they climb prety well. One reason for they "poor" performances on hills is that thay do not train for that, wright?

Stay well!

 

[oldborn]

I found something very common to your "study"

Lance Armstrong's coach, Chris Carmichael, recommends building leg strength with low repetitions and heavy weights in the winter, then switching to the bike for high-repetition power work in the form of intervals up steep hills. But cycling physician and trainer Max Testa says to begin the winter with 3-4 sets of 12-18 reps with medium resistance, then progress to 3 sets of 25 reps followed by 2 sets of 50 reps with light weights. Testa's reason for high-repetition/low resistance leg training: "When you pedal you use a very small percentage of maximum strength on each pedal stroke."



The following article also suggests that any benefits are minimal, at least for endurance performance. BISHOP, D., D. G. JENKINS, L. T. MACKINNON, M. MCENIERY, and M. F. CAREY. The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 6, pp. 886-891, 1999

Purpose: The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of resistance training on endurance performance and selected muscle characteristics of female cyclists.

Methods: Twenty-one endurance-trained, female cyclists, aged 18-42 yr, were randomly assigned to either a resistance training (RT; N = 14) or a control group (CON; N = 7). Resistance training (2��wk-1) consisted of five sets to failure (2-8 RM) of parallel squats for 12 wk. Before and immediately after the resistance-training period, all subjects completed an incremental cycle test to allow determination of both their lactate threshold (LT) and peak oxygen consumption V(dot)O2). In addition, endurance performance was assessed by average power output during a 1-h cycle test (OHT), and leg strength was measured by recording the subject's one repetition maximum (1 RM) concentric squat. Before and after the 12-wk training program, resting muscle was sampled by needle biopsy from m. vastus lateralis and analyzed for fiber type diameter, fiber type percentage, and the activities of 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase and phosphofructokinase.

Results: After the resistance training program, there was a significant increase in 1 RM concentric squat strength for RT (35.9%) but not for CON (3.7%) (P < 0.05). However, there were NO significant changes in OHT performance, LT, V(dot)O2, muscle fiber characteristics, or enzyme activities in either group (P > 0.05).

Conclusion: The present data suggest that increased leg strength does not improve cycle ENDURANCE performance in endurance-trained, female cyclists.

But some top pros are using weights anyway, so 50% are using it and others dont

 

[CoachFergie]

Or my English sucks

I allready did, i am not following pro rider programme, coz i do not have a 6 hours of just to ride a bike.
Yes those are two different things, and i did not say a word about it.

I am just saying and please correct me if i am wrong, that Cav or Cancellara are not trackies (coz you wrote that for guy who race more than 750m weights are not beneficial, wright?) but they still manage to finish and wins couple of stage in TDF, or Paris-Roubaix with weights training.

Outside of performing a 200kg deadlift at a Winter Team CSC Camp we have no further information on Cancellara doing weight training. We have no information on what Cav does for training. I have spoken to the coach of the British Track Cycling Team for Athens Olympics and Bradley Wiggin's personal coach who said the enduros did no weight training and that included Cav at the time.

And what is more important, they climb, not as fast as Sastre or Schleck but they climb prety well. One reason for they "poor" performances on hills is that thay do not train for that, wright?

I think I may have mentioned something about specific adaptation to imposed demands. May also have something to do with body type. I would expect Cav and co to have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibres that come very handy in a sprint but a pain in the **** when the road heads upwards.