Leg strength

[Polyarmour]

Ok I follow the arguments against using weights and I do find them compelling, but something I'm still not clear on after reading the responses is why Lance and Cancellara used weights. In Lance's autobiography he talks about hitting the gym and doing squats. I don't understand why arguably the most successful cyclist ever would do this if it was bad for him. Does this mean he would have won 10 TdF's had he stopped doing those squats? Was he misinformed? Have Lance or Cancellara ever explained their views on the role of a weights training programme within cycling?

 

[stephens]

It's obvious: Those guys lift weights because they aren't as smart as Coach Fergie.

 

[Tapeworm]

Without knowing the ins and outs of the type of training, when it is done in their programs the anecdotes are a bit meaningless.

Whilst slightly dated now I had read that the AIS enduros would do weights in the offseason. Basically it was simple conditioning to ensure their "frame" was kept healthy, bit of protection in crashes etc, basically something to counter-act the non-load bearing nature of cycling. I've also read of the pros doing cross country skiing, running, triathlon, hiking etc in the off season. Just something different to do other than ride. Doesn't mean this is some sort of "secret training" that if done will unlock all those hidden watts! These guys also do 6 hrs of riding a day and untold amounts of racing.

Try that before hitting the gym perhaps.

 

[Boeing]

That is truly pathetic. Ha ha works for me so will work for everyone

please don't put words in my mouth as you do with everyone else

is that what I said? really. come on think hard

 

[CoachFergie]

That is truly pathetic. Ha ha works for me so will work for everyone

please don't put words in my mouth as you do with everyone else

is that what I said? really. come on think hard

Yawn! Got any real evidence for why strength training improves better performance at riding a bike than <pause for effect> riding a bike

 

[CoachFergie]

Ok I follow the arguments against using weights and I do find them compelling, but something I'm still not clear on after reading the responses is why Lance and Cancellara used weights. In Lance's autobiography he talks about hitting the gym and doing squats. I don't understand why arguably the most successful cyclist ever would do this if it was bad for him. Does this mean he would have won 10 TdF's had he stopped doing those squats? Was he misinformed? Have Lance or Cancellara ever explained their views on the role of a weights training programme within cycling?

There is no evidence that Cancellara does perform weight training in season just the suggestion that in a pre season camp he deadlifted 200kg.

It was reported that pre cancer that Lance would do weights post Tour de France and most of the reported weight training and video footage was after his first retirement.

But these are just appeals to authority and the claims have to be balanced against the actual research and the context from where they are made. If you look for scientific support of these programmes there is none.

 

[oldborn]

I will ask you again, and please answer it; How many studies have shown that trained cyclists get significantly worse when they strength train?
Please argument it.

Why are you such a anti strenght train guy? I know, they did not let you to play Australian football, coz of chicken legs
Sorry for remarks, but please answer on my Q?

Stay well!
P.S. What beer do you prefer most?

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

I have a friend who switched from bodybuilding to cycling at about age 30. He has enormous thighs -- we call him "Quadzilla." When we're riding paceline, your worst nightmare is when it's his pull. He's a beast. But in the hills, his *** leaks buttermilk. Just too much weight.

I find that over the winter I do tend to lose muscle mass in my quads. The best method I have found for limiting the loss is plyometrics.

 

[CoachFergie]

I will ask you again, and please answer it; How many studies have shown that trained cyclists get significantly worse when they strength train?
Please argument it.

Why are you such a anti strenght train guy? I know, they did not let you to play Australian football, coz of chicken legs
Sorry for remarks, but please answer on my Q?

Stay well!
P.S. What beer do you prefer most?

Sadly pathetic. That's like those cowards who beat their wives then apologise and explain why it's the wife's fault that he hits her.

One small hint, I'm not Australian.

Levin et al 2009 found a decrease in performance in the experimental group that combined weight training and cycle training between pre and post testing. There was no loss in the control group that performed cycle training.

DB Export Gold

 

[Polyarmour]

There is no evidence that Cancellara does perform weight training in season just the suggestion that in a pre season camp he deadlifted 200kg.

It was reported that pre cancer that Lance would do weights post Tour de France and most of the reported weight training and video footage was after his first retirement.

But these are just appeals to authority and the claims have to be balanced against the actual research and the context from where they are made. If you look for scientific support of these programmes there is none.

Thanks for the info on Cancellara.

I went back to Lance's diary ("It's not about the bike") and at the end of Chapter 7 he talks about going to the gym and doing leg presses and squats as training. This is after cancer but before he is racing again. After reading it again he describes the purpose of his gym work as being "rebuilding". He also says that he starts to do longer and longer rides from this point too. While it's not clear, my impression is that he went to the gym initially to get some strength into his muscles as he had done nothing in over a year. Whether he continued with it, who knows, but it was certainly never mentioned again. He talks a lot about his training from this point on and it's all on the bike.... not in the gym. So maybe gym work played a minor role in the beginning of his comeback but not much beyond that.

To me it makes sense that weights work could be counterproductive. A 50km ride consists of roughly 10,000 reps of a (mostly) low weight. Who does that at the gym? Normally you do 3 or 4 sets of 10 or 12 or maybe 15. If you want to be a body builder you lift as much as you can until muscle failure, if you just want to tone up you might lift a bit less, but if you want endurance and cardio, you need to do 10,000 reps. And it's just not possible to replicate in the gym what happens on the bike.

I guess the temptation with gym work is the belief that leg strength comes from lifting weights. We'd all like more leg strength on the bike. We'd all like to put the pedal down and drop everyone on the hill. But there is little point in having that strength if it only lasts a few seconds. You need to develop the cardiovascular system to support that strength. Chris Boardman had a max output of 900W on a bike. Plenty of strong guys at the local gym could probably do well in excess of that, but he could output 430W for an hour whereas the local gym guys would be lucky to last 60 seconds. Seems to me that a different type of strength is required on a bike, one where the vascular system is well developed for oxygen transfer, where lactate and fuel are handled efficiently and where the muscles are lean. I've dropped enough muscle guys on bikes to know that "whatever they're doin... it ain't working"

 

[oldborn]

Thanks for the info on Cancellara.

I went back to Lance's diary ("It's not about the bike") and at the end of Chapter 7 he talks about going to the gym and doing leg presses and squats as training. This is after cancer but before he is racing again. After reading it again he describes the purpose of his gym work as being "rebuilding". He also says that he starts to do longer and longer rides from this point too. While it's not clear, my impression is that he went to the gym initially to get some strength into his muscles as he had done nothing in over a year. Whether he continued with it, who knows, but it was certainly never mentioned again. He talks a lot about his training from this point on and it's all on the bike.... not in the gym. So maybe gym work played a minor role in the beginning of his comeback but not much beyond that.

To me it makes sense that weights work could be counterproductive. A 50km ride consists of roughly 10,000 reps of a (mostly) low weight. Who does that at the gym? Normally you do 3 or 4 sets of 10 or 12 or maybe 15. If you want to be a body builder you lift as much as you can until muscle failure, if you just want to tone up you might lift a bit less, but if you want endurance and cardio, you need to do 10,000 reps. And it's just not possible to replicate in the gym what happens on the bike.

I guess the temptation with gym work is the belief that leg strength comes from lifting weights. We'd all like more leg strength on the bike. We'd all like to put the pedal down and drop everyone on the hill. But there is little point in having that strength if it only lasts a few seconds. You need to develop the cardiovascular system to support that strength. Chris Boardman had a max output of 900W on a bike. Plenty of strong guys at the local gym could probably do well in excess of that, but he could output 430W for an hour whereas the local gym guys would be lucky to last 60 seconds. Seems to me that a different type of strength is required on a bike, one where the vascular system is well developed for oxygen transfer, where lactate and fuel are handled efficiently and where the muscles are lean. I've dropped enough muscle guys on bikes to know that "whatever they're doin... it ain't working"

Good point, maybe works maybe not, but who can scientificaly be 100% wright?

 

[CoachFergie]

Good point, maybe works maybe not, but who can scientificaly be 100% wright?

Well in science we settle for 95%. It's better than appeals to authority or celebrity endorsement.

 

[oldborn]

Sadly pathetic. That's like those cowards who beat their wives then apologise and explain why it's the wife's fault that he hits her.

One small hint, I'm not Australian.

Levin et al 2009 found a decrease in performance in the experimental group that combined weight training and cycle training between pre and post testing. There was no loss in the control group that performed cycle training.

DB Export Gold

Thnaks for the beer info, but lets get back to the point. You quote Levin, can you be more specific and tell me who is that guy, ex pro, some doctor?

Furthemore how many people control group had, age, are they were top athletes, or just people from the street?

You wrote that he found decrease in performance, that is very much thiny argument, what kind of performance? Did he put them on hills, paris-roubaix, some wats mesaurments, or maybe he just aske them about perceived exertion?

Well those thing you must admit is very, very hard to prove. This is not some matematichs formula.

Stay well!

P.S. Are you living in Tasmania?

 

[CoachFergie]

Thnaks for the beer info, but lets get back to the point. You quote Levin, can you be more specific and tell me who is that guy, ex pro, some doctor?

Furthemore how many people control group had, age, are they were top athletes, or just people from the street?

You wrote that he found decrease in performance, that is very much thiny argument, what kind of performance? Did he put them on hills, paris-roubaix, some wats mesaurments, or maybe he just aske them about perceived exertion?

Well those thing you must admit is very, very hard to prove. This is not some matematichs formula.

Stay well!

P.S. Are you living in Tasmania?

You asked about the beer

Tasmania is part of Australia.

Read up for yourself...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826297

Now while I agree that cycling is not a maths contest it still pays to know the physiological requirements of each event. Seeing that in a Wingate 30sec test people only hold peak power for 1-3 seconds then drop off significantly why do you think increasing strength is going to help a rider in a 4000m pursuit, 40km time trial or a 200km road race where strength is not even a factor.

I have SRM data from a ex World Track Champion showing that at the start his power off the line in a Kilo is 200 watts below his maximal power and his power in a 4000m pursuit is 550 watts lower. If you look at the Omnium splits you see that the riders start the Kilo 1-2 sec faster in the first lap than they do in the Pursuit. The Kilo riders start slowing than the riders do in the Teams Sprint. If a Kilo and Pursuit rider never uses their strength in a track race then why do you propose we train a fitness component unrelated to actual performance?

That is track. Our ex World Champ also road raced and in many road races and never came close to producing the power anywhere near to what he produces on the track. The exception is criterium races where funny enough the ones he performed the worst in were the ones where he overcooked the primes, using too much anaerobic energy and could never recover to contend at the finish.

To claim a role for strength training shows a misunderstanding of the demands of cycling for any event longer than 750m.

 

[oldborn]

You asked about the beer

Tasmania is part of Australia.

Read up for yourself...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826297

Now while I agree that cycling is not a maths contest it still pays to know the physiological requirements of each event. Seeing that in a Wingate 30sec test people only hold peak power for 1-3 seconds then drop off significantly why do you think increasing strength is going to help a rider in a 4000m pursuit, 40km time trial or a 200km road race where strength is not even a factor.

I have SRM data from a ex World Track Champion showing that at the start his power off the line in a Kilo is 200 watts below his maximal power and his power in a 4000m pursuit is 550 watts lower. If you look at the Omnium splits you see that the riders start the Kilo 1-2 sec faster in the first lap than they do in the Pursuit. The Kilo riders start slowing than the riders do in the Teams Sprint. If a Kilo and Pursuit rider never uses their strength in a track race then why do you propose we train a fitness component unrelated to actual performance?

That is track. Our ex World Champ also road raced and in many road races and never came close to producing the power anywhere near to what he produces on the track. The exception is criterium races where funny enough the ones he performed the worst in were the ones where he overcooked the primes, using too much anaerobic energy and could never recover to contend at the finish.

To claim a role for strength training shows a misunderstanding of the demands of cycling for any event longer than 750m.

Hi there!

But you must admit that is a strange part of Australia.

First about study, how many cyclist 14? And what from RT group (7) 3 of them has some improvement and 4 of them are slower or had equal and this is more than 50% of 7, you must admit that human organism are not statistics. What do you say if those 7 (which is irelevant number of people for serius studie, how many people farmaceutics companyes take for clinical study for new medicine) were tired that day, or have not sex, or beeing drunk, or it was windy on track?

I must admit that weigth training is good in some pre season, to prepare muscles, and will not make any help on 3 weeks race, but what if helps for 30 or 40% cyclist arround the world who doing gym work just to have better power output for 1w, or 0,5w, or just have same results, does it mean that those 30% doing something wrong, while other 70% doing good job and do not include gym in their work?

 

[CoachFergie]

Hi there!

But you must admit that is a strange part of Australia.

Not as strange as a some things.

First about study, how many cyclist 14? And what from RT group (7) 3 of them has some improvement and 4 of them are slower or had equal and this is more than 50% of 7, you must admit that human organism are not statistics. What do you say if those 7 (which is irelevant number of people for serius studie, how many people farmaceutics companyes take for clinical study for new medicine) were tired that day, or have not sex, or beeing drunk, or it was windy on track?

You asked for a study that showed a statistically significant decrease in performance.

I must admit that weigth training is good in some pre season, to prepare muscles, and will not make any help on 3 weeks race, but what if helps for 30 or 40% cyclist arround the world who doing gym work just to have better power output for 1w, or 0,5w, or just have same results, does it mean that those 30% doing something wrong, while other 70% doing good job and do not include gym in their work?

Prepare muscles for what?

Care to show me a study showing that weight training significantly increases performance in cyclists.

I'm not into making assumptions I look at specifics. As a coach I see performance gains in my cyclists when they follow a very specific programme of cycle training. In particular when they train with power and we have a very accurate measure of performance.

 

[L29205]

Here is a nice little summary of a few studies concerning resistance training by endurance athletes. To sum it up, resistance training is of little to no use for elite level athletes but for entry level or moderately trained individuals there can be benefits.

And yes there is a reference to a study that showed improvement by cyclists doing weight training but there is also a reference to another study showing the reverse.

http://www.sportsci.org/news/traingain/resistance.html

I believe that there is no clear cut answer to the question.

 

[oldborn]

Here is a nice little summary of a few studies concerning resistance training by endurance athletes. To sum it up, resistance training is of little to no use for elite level athletes but for entry level or moderately trained individuals there can be benefits.

And yes there is a reference to a study that showed improvement by cyclists doing weight training but there is also a reference to another study showing the reverse.

http://www.sportsci.org/news/traingain/resistance.html

I believe that there is no clear cut answer to the question.

I sign it, and it will not kill you.

 

[oldborn]

Hi there!

Yes i agree with you that Tasmanian thing.

As i said before. i can order such a study, wright, and you show me a "study" with 14 tested cyclist, give me a break, yes it is study. Prepare muscles for fatigue, for pumping blood etc, not such specific movement as on bike, but after winter for average guy this is only way to do it, yes?

As a coach did you ever try other method of training? Or your athletes and their results have prove to you that your way is wright and other way isn t?

For a average guy like me, i found it very good, and this is me. I did not measure it, but i feel more strenght than before. There is no such a study, but there is no relevant study (exept with that 14 guys, or show me a study with 200 cyclist wich lasted for a year) for your theory.

Stay well!

 

[CoachFergie]

For a average guy like me, i found it very good, and this is me. I did not measure it, but i feel more strenght than before. There is no such a study, but there is no relevant study (exept with that 14 guys, or show me a study with 200 cyclist wich lasted for a year) for your theory

Would you like me to ride the bike for you as well.

I coach riders from beginner's to 5 guys in the top 15 in various UCI events and the principles of fitness (specificity, progressive overload, individuality and recovery) don't change. Of the 1000+ riders I have coached over the last 18 years I haven't seen one where a lack of strength was limiting their performance. That includes three World Champions in Track Sprint events and many people totally new to the sport from ages 13 to 60.

The biggest physiological limit I see is a lack of specific preparation for the demands of their event. Too much time spent doing too many miles, thinking strength is going to help them in an aerobic event, too much sprint training, too much hill training (because it's hard) when their goals are TT or Track based and not paying enough attention to their diet. Of those 1000+ riders I have never seen one fail and thought: "hmmm that guy needs to squat more".

 

[Boeing]

more personal pronouns in a fergie post than a Tiger Woods news conference

 

[Boeing]

Here is a nice little summary of a few studies concerning resistance training by endurance athletes. To sum it up, resistance training is of little to no use for elite level athletes but for entry level or moderately trained individuals there can be benefits.

And yes there is a reference to a study that showed improvement by cyclists doing weight training but there is also a reference to another study showing the reverse.

http://www.sportsci.org/news/traingain/resistance.html

I believe that there is no clear cut answer to the question.

thank you for this link, interesting

 

[Rip:30]

(specificity, progressive overload, individuality and recovery) ".

Very original. Can I hire you to help me understand these complex concepts?

 

[CoachFergie]

Very original. Can I hire you to help me understand these complex concepts?

I'm not taking on new clients.

Any good exercise physiology text will cover these less than original concepts.

 

[oldborn]

Would you like me to ride the bike for you as well.
The biggest physiological limit I see is a lack of specific preparation for the demands of their event.

Hi Tasmanian!

No thanks a lot!
What about study with 14 people, you must admit that is not realy a study, maybe resources etc could results with such end. You said that you never coach your athletes to do squats etc.

Do you think that type of aproach are wrong, or not proven yet? And what about other coaches do you know their aproach?
I agree with your last words.