LeMond I

[86TDFWinner]

My view of LeMond is that it is possible that he used PEDs in the 80's but, and it is a very big but, his unflinching stance on doping for the better part of a decade and a half sets him up to be exposed as a charlatan. In spite of this he has not had a single credible accusation levelled at him. It's a long proven fact that those that stand up on a soapbox and preach on morality always get exposed for frauds when they have a ropey past and that normally happens pretty swiftly. So this begs the question, why hasn't it happened to LeMond?

Thank you, agree 100%. The second someone starts using the "Lemond doped too" arguement/response, I always ask, "where's the credible source(s) that says he did so? one former teammate/coach/rider/etc. thats given FACTUAL/CREDIBLE proof that he's done so?"


It's usually crickets chirping.


It "hasn't happened to LeMond" because NO CREDIBLE evidence of his supposed doping, doesn't exist, it's just not there. if it were, as you said, surely by now it would've been leaked.

Why can't people just give Greg the credit he so richly deserves and admit that he was just very very very good? They can't.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Thank you, agree 100%. The second someone starts using the "Lemond doped too" arguement/response, I always ask, "where's the credible source(s) that says he did so? one former teammate/coach/rider/etc. thats given FACTUAL/CREDIBLE proof that he's done so?"


It's usually crickets chirping.


It "hasn't happened to LeMond" because NO CREDIBLE evidence of his supposed doping, doesn't exist, it's just not there. if it were, as you said, surely by now it would've been leaked.

Why can't people just give Greg the credit he so richly deserves and admit that he was just very very very good? They can't.

Otto Jacome was not a choir boy.

 

[Irish2009]

The domestic ds your thinking of is Hubert Van Wesemael.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Otto Jacome was not a choir boy.

LOL, I don't know who that is, sorry.

 

[esafosfina]

The domestic ds your thinking of is Hubert Van Wesemael.

Thanks Irish! He was a nice guy... wonder whatever happened to him?

 

[esafosfina]

LOL, I don't know who that is, sorry.

Otto was Greg's personal soigneur and carer... came to ADR on a package deal with Greg and Miguel Arroyo, a young Mexican neo-pro.

 

[Microchip]

I for one would be devastated if it came to light that Greg was doping in 89... but such is my cynicism that it wouldn't surprise me either, knowing what I know of the team structure.

It's good to be enlightened by someone who was right there at the time. And that you were able to race clean and place really well, to me is actually a good support for thinking that Greg won his achievements clean. David Millar (in a video on the blog Inner Ring) said that clean guys can win races (yes I know he was referring to the races that were not 3 weeks long). I've always believed Lemond.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Otto was Greg's personal soigneur and carer... came to ADR on a package deal with Greg and Miguel Arroyo, a young Mexican neo-pro.

Oh, thanks for the heads up...didn't know that.

May i ask, do you think Greg doped, or do you think it's just sour grapes by lance to deflect some of the heat off him(as he's so eloquently known for?)

 

[86TDFWinner]

It's good to be enlightened by someone who was right there at the time. And that you were able to race clean and place really well, to me is actually a good support for thinking that Greg won his achievements clean. David Millar (in a video on the blog Inner Ring) said that clean guys can win races (yes I know he was referring to the races that were not 3 weeks long). I've always believed Lemond.

Yes, thanks for your insight. I've always believed Greg was clean too. Until someone comes out with CREDIBLE evidence/proof proving otherwise, thats how it'll be with me, LeMond= Innocent and clean.

 

[Microchip]

Yes, thanks for your insight. I've always believed Greg was clean too. Until someone comes out with CREDIBLE evidence/proof proving otherwise, thats how it'll be with me, LeMond= Innocent and clean.

... it's just barely evident that you're a Greg fan ... good thing you said it !

 

[DirtyWorks]

Hi ToreBear, yes unfortunately I was active when EPO was first touted as a PED, and yes again, it changed the sport and cost a lot of clean riders a great deal. My DS at ADR was Jose de Cauwer, and we had Willy Jossaert and a guy called Hubert (sorry, I can't remember his surname!) as domestic, ie; Belgian based DSs. You're not being nosy, just showing interest, it's fine.

It was noticed quite early that I wasn't keen on following the party line with regards to 'products'... I'll be the first to admit that De Cauwer never once pressured me... I think he knew I had a freakish natural ability. (Shame I never realised it!)

1. Thanks for filling in a little history pre-Internet history.
2. My recollections somewhere around your era was some young riders dying of heart attacks in the very earliest days of EPO usage at the development level. Do you remember these reports? Was it an issue riders discussed at the time?
3. Do you recall any memorable races rumoured to be "bought" during that era?

 

[esafosfina]

I believe that Greg used every legal channel available to him... personally I don't think he ever crossed any line, but that's just me. Within the team there were so many 'tales', so many "I saw this... I saw that", but no real proof, nor evidence.

The more astute will have noticed that I say 'every legal channel...' There were, and are, medicines and products on the market that may seem unsavoury to some due to their nature; they have to be injected. This is an area which divides most. The delivery system matters not, in my opinion.

 

[esafosfina]

On a somewhat lighter note... but still regarding Greg: I used to cut holes in the back of my undervests for ventilation, which I somewhat cruelly referred to as my 'Greg Lemond Hunting Vests'... He saw the funny side!

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Otto was Greg's personal soigneur and carer... came to ADR on a package deal with Greg and Miguel Arroyo, a young Mexican neo-pro.

Just to clarify:

I do not think Greg 'doped'. At the same time he may have benefited from more natural or homeopathic 'soins' that might be prohibited under today's regime, but were not on the radar at the time. He suffered a lot towards the end of his career, when the peleton discovered EPO. And when he was shelled of the back or some races he was definitely not able to keep up with dopers and thought it best to say 'basta'.

 

[esafosfina]

1. Thanks for filling in a little history pre-Internet history.
2. My recollections somewhere around your era was some young riders dying of heart attacks in the very earliest days of EPO usage at the development level. Do you remember these reports? Was it an issue riders discussed at the time?
3. Do you recall any memorable races rumoured to be "bought" during that era?

Hi DW... yes, you are correct. At that time (89-91) there were a few reports of riders dying from, well... that was it, back then no-one wanted to say it. But in retrospect it was more than likely EPO abuse. In 1990 a young team-mate of mine died, Patrice Bar. Johannes Drier (sp?) of PDM also died, allegedly due to EPO misuse. We did discuss it amongst the riders, but no-one fully disclosed their own usage. (I was to later learn that a number of my team-mates had also been offered 'assistance' but had kept quiet about it)
There were always rumours of races being bought and sold! It was a staple at dinner time in the team hotels... I know I have ridden myself into the ground for other teams as that is what we were directed to do by our DS. Races of note? To be brutally honest, I wasn't in the top-tier of classic riders at ADR due to my youth, but I know money and favours changed hands in semi-classics and the like. Did I agree with it? Not really, but salaries and contracts were not as lucrative as they are now, and every little helped.

 

[Flux Capacity]

Thank you for the kind comments. I hope I can be an unbiased voice and shed some light on those times in the peloton!

PS. The avatar gives away my id!

Yes, the avatar gave you away in about 2 seconds. Are you coming back to Oz? You can race Masters with us, even though it'd be too easy for you

 

[ToreBear]

Hi ToreBear, yes unfortunately I was active when EPO was first touted as a PED, and yes again, it changed the sport and cost a lot of clean riders a great deal. My DS at ADR was Jose de Cauwer, and we had Willy Jossaert and a guy called Hubert (sorry, I can't remember his surname!) as domestic, ie; Belgian based DSs. You're not being nosy, just showing interest, it's fine.

It was noticed quite early that I wasn't keen on following the party line with regards to 'products'... I'll be the first to admit that De Cauwer never once pressured me... I think he knew I had a freakish natural ability. (Shame I never realised it!)

Thanks! That era of cycling is blank to me, so I was worried my questions would come off as a bit too aggressive if you wanted your identity to remain secret.

The epo era or the blood vector doping that JV talks about appears to have really changed the sport. Looking back at results, it's difficult to know what is real and what is not. That is really a horrible situation for everybody. Perhaps most of all to those who struggled to remain competitive in the era without doping. In my mind those who competed clean are the real winners. They kept their integrity, and upheld the ideals of sport when the cost for doing so was the highest. That is impressive!

Sorry if I'm embarrassing you with praise, I'm just very impressed by your achievement!

How come you never realized your own ability? Was it due to the epo guys beating you and you at the time not understanding that it was the epo and not them?

What was your impression about the effect of doping in the 80s before epo?(steroids, speed etc.)

When did you realize that EPO had totally changed the game?


By the way, I checked out the big boys on adr on http://www.dopeology.org

Planckaert apearently admitted to taking epo in 1990.

Kuum tested positive for an unnamed substance after Stage 13 of the 1988 Tour de France. It is not known if he was sanctioned.

Kuums career looks to have went downhill in the EPO era, so that could be an indication of him not using it. I was surprised to find out he was Norwegian. Apparently he got asylum here in the 80s from the USSR. Sadly it appears he ended his own life in 1998.

Thank you for the kind comments. I hope I can be an unbiased voice and shed some light on those times in the peloton!

PS. The avatar gives away my id!

Your voice is certainly needed! Those days of cycling seem like the dark ages in regards to what really happened. There are so many secrets. In this age of information, I think it is time for truth to be known, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Chapeu to you for sharing your knowledge!

 

[Flux Capacity]

Sorry if I'm embarrassing you with praise, I'm just very impressed by your achievement!
!

Yeah! Back when men were men, and the pursuit was 5k

 

[Maillot Vert]

On a somewhat lighter note... but still regarding Greg: I used to cut holes in the back of my undervests for ventilation, which I somewhat cruelly referred to as my 'Greg Lemond Hunting Vests'... He saw the funny side!

So thats where you got the great "surges" of power from, that you were renowned for during your distinguished career!!

Which included being an immensely impressive World Champion. Bravo !!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Another LeMond fan here. The guy is one of my heroes. Awesome to hear him fight back at the UCI without blinking.

 

[Irish2009]

I hope to meet Greg this Sunday, i'll relay the general support he has here.

 

[Cloxxki]

I hope to meet Greg this Sunday, i'll relay the general support he has here.

Please do. But if he's emailing CN, we can bet he's more than aware. From the way he files his documents, he doesn't seem like someone to miss a bit of vital info.

 

[baker0127]

LeMond

I personally will always think of LeMond as a class act and totally clean racer. All those years ago he knew then what we all know now, about doping among the peloton, Armstrong, etc.

 

[Zweistein]

Just to clarify:

At the same time he may have benefited from more natural or homeopathic 'soins' that might be prohibited under today's regime, but were not on the radar at the time.

To speculate this much is silly and pointless.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Starr wrote:



Starr is a complete idiot in this statement. That worlds was in 1989. EPO was not "widely available" then. It wasn't even approved by the FDA until 1993:http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/04/briefing/4037b2_04_fda-aranesp-procrit.htm

Nuff said......