LeMond I

[Dr. Maserati]

Has anyone ever tested Mr. Lemonds blood? If I remember back to that July summer day, the announcers picked everyone but Lemond to win that ITT. It was so suprising that the headlines read - Unbelievable, Unpredictible, Not in a Milliion years, What an American?, etc. It was so amazing that he should still be under investigation, especially based on his own criteriums. According to his bad math his own VO2 should have been astronomical and only produced with the help of drugs. period.

Well I remember the ITT in 1989 quite well and fully expected him to win it - as indeed he had the long ITT at the start of the Tour. The suprise was that Fignon rode relatively poorly.
Also if you have evidence to support your theory I would be interested in seeing it- and when I say evidence it doesnt have to be 6 EPO positives, even a good rumour will do.

 

[Escarabajo]

Has anyone ever tested Mr. Lemonds blood? If I remember back to that July summer day, the announcers picked everyone but Lemond to win that ITT. It was so suprising that the headlines read - Unbelievable, Unpredictible, Not in a Milliion years, What an American?, etc. It was so amazing that he should still be under investigation, especially based on his own criteriums. According to his bad math his own VO2 should have been astronomical and only produced with the help of drugs. period.

Nothing you said in your post is credible.

1- I expected him to win (IMO). So no surprises there. In fact he was one of the best ITT of the time. So I don't undesrtand your comment.
2- I don't think that they tested blood at that time. Maybe you can confirm if I am wrong with some sources.
3- Here is a copy from a previous post on this same thread:

Does tailwind means anything to you?

I will help you with the power calculations:

Greg Lemond ITT 1989: 420-430 Watts (5.65 W/kg)
Lance Armstrong 2004 Alpe d'Huez: 466 Watts (6.5 W/kg)
Contador - Verbier 2009: 413 W- 434 W (6.8- 7.1 W/kg)
Pantani – Alpe d’Huez 1997: 403 W (7.2 W/kg)

Here I am not taking into account the time to exhaustion which is a big factor on the power that an athlete can perform. In other words it is harder to maintain a high power for longer times. Look at the short time for the ITT for Greg Lemond. That is completely believable. Now look at the numbers on Watts/Kg that all other athletes have. Above 6 W/kg the numbers start being seriously suspicious.

Now here is a link at Greg's take on his numbers:
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

In this link Greg also is explaining how the power decreases over time. This means that over a period of three weeks of riding in the Tour de France the riders will experience fatigue and decrease in VO2 max. Something that is not happening with the other three athletes apparently.

As a late note, this topic has been discussed in the past in this forum so that was the reason why I did not want to reply to you, but since you have been so insistent on this topic now I took the time to reply to you.

I hope this helps.

Note: here is a link on how to do the calculations and a chart on the exhaustion times for athletes. Or you can just Google the topic all you want.
http://swiss2.whosting.ch/mdetting/sports/

It does not look like these numbers will give a higher number than 93 ml/kg which is his VO2 max at 90%. I don't have the formula but if I follow the same procedure as in this link, I don't get close to this number.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-contador-vo2max.html

So I have to ask you where your numbers come from.
Thanks.

 

[Golddigger]

????!!

It is his own fault for going hunting.

What a complete idiot.

He should start an anti-hunting campaign.

That is what really ended his career. He doesn't want people to remember that his own idiocy ended his career, so now he has to say everybody was using performance enhancing drugs.

Excuse me, he did not shoot himself. It would a appear that you might be the one who qualifies as the complete and total idiot here.

 

[tockit]

It is his own fault for going hunting.
What a complete idiot.
That is what really ended his career. He doesn't want people to remember that his own idiocy ended his career, so now he has to say everybody was using performance enhancing drugs.

You guys (especially Slant) obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Since when does wild game hunting have any bearing on one's intelligence?

Lots of people get shot accidentally but many get shot by inexperienced hunters, like Greg.
This deer hunt was less sport and more family fun; Greg paid the price by being in front of a relative with a gun.
His buckshot count is no more relevant than broken collarbones or ribs to other competitors.

First of all, he was turkey hunting, NOT deer hunting.

From his inane comments, I would assume that Slant has never turkey hunted, nor would he know which end is the business end of a shotgun.

That type of activity might get his fingers dirty!

Secondly, since you have never turkey hunted, I can tell you that it takes quite a bit of skill.

Turkeys are very smart birds, and can see better than most animals in the world.

There is a lot of skill involved in learning to use calls to get the turkeys to come close enough to get a shot at them, and they are easily spooked, if they don't see you first.

Also, if you knew anything about hunting, you would know that Lemond didn't have any 'buckshot' count in his body, because buckshot is used for large game such as deer, not turkey.

If guns are involved it is probably risky.

This comment is so ignorant that its pathetic.

The accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188, far less than say automobile accidents, death from botched surgical procedures, overdoses, etc, etc.

However, if you are a millionaire earning big money you might want to avoid redneck hillbilly type activities like hunting.

I know lots of millionaires that are huge gun enthusiasts.

Skeet and Trap shooting are very popular among the well-to-do crowd.

The moral of this post is shut your piehole about things you know nothing about.

 

[runninboy]

You guys (especially Slant) obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Since when does wild game hunting have any bearing on one's intelligence?

First of all, he was turkey hunting, NOT deer hunting.

From his inane comments, I would assume that Slant has never turkey hunted, nor would he know which end is the business end of a shotgun.

That type of activity might get his fingers dirty!

Secondly, since you have never turkey hunted, I can tell you that it takes quite a bit of skill.

Turkeys are very smart birds, and can see better than most animals in the world.

There is a lot of skill involved in learning to use calls to get the turkeys to come close enough to get a shot at them, and they are easily spooked, if they don't see you first.

Also, if you knew anything about hunting, you would know that Lemond didn't have any 'buckshot' count in his body, because buckshot is used for large game such as deer, not turkey.


This comment is so ignorant that its pathetic.

The accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188, far less than say automobile accidents, death from botched surgical procedures, overdoses, etc, etc.

I know lots of millionaires that are huge gun enthusiasts.

Skeet and Trap shooting are very popular among the well-to-do crowd.

The moral of this post is shut your piehole about things you know nothing about.

#1 Excellent post, I ran across the interview where Lemond talked about the incident and he said it was #2 shot, he said if it was buckshot he would be dead now for sure at that range.

Excellent points all around but it is nice you brought up the trap & skeet reference apparently that was what Lemond used to do BEFORE he started riding bicycles. Hollywood stars like Clark Gable used to shoot on a regular basis

and a bit of trivia
Robert Stack(the Untouchables) was a world champion skeet shooter
Arnold Schwarzenegger used to trap shoot every weekend, he has a little coin defintiely not a redneck activity

 

[Oldman]

Dude, Bro in law had been drinking

You guys (especially Slant) obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Since when does wild game hunting have any bearing on one's intelligence?

First of all, he was turkey hunting, NOT deer hunting.

From his inane comments, I would assume that Slant has never turkey hunted, nor would he know which end is the business end of a shotgun.

That type of activity might get his fingers dirty!

Secondly, since you have never turkey hunted, I can tell you that it takes quite a bit of skill.

Turkeys are very smart birds, and can see better than most animals in the world.

There is a lot of skill involved in learning to use calls to get the turkeys to come close enough to get a shot at them, and they are easily spooked, if they don't see you first.

Also, if you knew anything about hunting, you would know that Lemond didn't have any 'buckshot' count in his body, because buckshot is used for large game such as deer, not turkey.


This comment is so ignorant that its pathetic.

The accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188, far less than say automobile accidents, death from botched surgical procedures, overdoses, etc, etc.

I know lots of millionaires that are huge gun enthusiasts.

Skeet and Trap shooting are very popular among the well-to-do crowd.

The moral of this post is shut your piehole about things you know nothing about.

My point was simple-his injury impact short term were similar to other traumatic injuries. Cyclists learn to live with punctured lungs, broken femurs, ribs, etc. His heroism is a product of his book, the media and your adulation. Other riders have overcome as much, if not more. It doesn't add credence to his opinions or his indictment of other riders. Learn to separate the hype from the fact. By the way, many men talk alot when they drink. Greg is not different.

 

[runninboy]

My point was simple-his injury impact short term were similar to other traumatic injuries. Cyclists learn to live with punctured lungs, broken femurs, ribs, etc. His heroism is a product of his book, the media and your adulation. Other riders have overcome as much, if not more. It doesn't add credence to his opinions or his indictment of other riders. Learn to separate the hype from the fact. By the way, many men talk alot when they drink. Greg is not different.

You have already proved your ignorance of the facts involved,
not deer hunting in Minnesota, etc
now you are equating broken ribs with being air lifted and almost dying due to the loss of blood?
OK have a nice day...

 

[Oldman]

You have already proved your ignorance of the facts involved,
not deer hunting in Minnesota, etc
now you are equating broken ribs with being air lifted and almost dying due to the loss of blood?
OK have a nice day...

I have the autographed book. Deershot/birdshot, you're correct as I already said. Greg wrote the book, toured Letterman and made the Dollar$ just like Lance. The topic was whether he was serving the sport or his legend by calling out and demanding evidence from the winners of this generation without accepted testing protocols? My error on the gauge of shot his inexperienced hunter/brother in law put in his behind doesn't change the question.

 

[runninboy]

I have the autographed book. Deershot/birdshot, you're correct as I already said. Greg wrote the book, toured Letterman and made the Dollar$ just like Lance. The topic was whether he was serving the sport or his legend by calling out and demanding evidence from the winners of this generation without accepted testing protocols? My error on the gauge of shot his inexperienced hunter/brother in law put in his behind doesn't change the question.

Well i think it is you who constantly has moved off topic with your constant flippant comments, i.e. posting something like how all cyclists who have had broken legs & ribs have went through as much trauma as a man who only survived because he was airlifted to hospital are u kidding?

Anyway As i stated before (with a link )no less a champion than Andy Hampsten thinks Greg is serving his sport well and fighting a good fight.
Andy would know his motivation far better than you or I, so i tend to defer to someone who has first hand knowledge of the situation.

http://www.tdfblog.com/2004/07/hampsten_voices.html

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My point was simple-his injury impact short term were similar to other traumatic injuries. Cyclists learn to live with punctured lungs, broken femurs, ribs, etc. His heroism is a product of his book, the media and your adulation. Other riders have overcome as much, if not more. It doesn't add credence to his opinions or his indictment of other riders. Learn to separate the hype from the fact. By the way, many men talk alot when they drink. Greg is not different.

Nice - you have described Greg as bitter and called in to question other unsubstantiated and irrelevant comments in this thread - and now you are implying he has a drink problem?

I wouldn't care if he pushed Contador off the podium on the Champs Elysees with a bottle of Champagne in one hand and the (other) Olsen twin in the other hand. It is still his message that I listen to - not because of his achievements or personality but because time and again he is proven correct.

Your post reveals a lot more about you than it does Lemond.

 

[Oldman]

Nice - you have described Greg as bitter and called in to question other unsubstantiated and irrelevant comments in this thread - and now you are implying he has a drink problem?

I wouldn't care if he pushed Contador off the podium on the Champs Elysees with a bottle of Champagne in one hand and the (other) Olsen twin in the other hand. It is still his message that I listen to - not because of his achievements or personality but because time and again he is proven correct.

Your post reveals a lot more about you than it does Lemond.

Dr: I apologize for any inference to Lemond having a problem. That would be off base and not intended. Have had beers with him, however and some good stories. I consider him the hero that got me riding (that and seeing Rebecca Twigg in a skinsuit). His tone and direction disturb me. I'll show myself out of this discussion.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Excuse me, he did not shoot himself. It would a appear that you might be the one who qualifies as the complete and total idiot here.

He put himself in a dangerous situation and ended up getting shot. You can't see the idiocy involved in that?

 

[SlantParallelogram]

You guys (especially Slant) obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Since when does wild game hunting have any bearing on one's intelligence?

First of all, he was turkey hunting, NOT deer hunting.

The accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188, far less than say automobile accidents, death from botched surgical procedures, overdoses, etc, etc.

I know lots of millionaires that are huge gun enthusiasts.

Dude, you sound like you got your statistics about gun safety right out of an NRA brochure.

I don't know where you live, but in the big city I don't know anybody who goes hunting. Ask anybody who lives in a city, and they will tell you it is reserved for rednecks and hillbillies.

Let's get real here. You don't know any millionaires. They spend their money on sports cars, boats, and private jets.

Only old and miserable rich people like Cheney and his friends still go hunting. They might be rich, but still qualify as rednecks (or worse) to me.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dr: I apologize for any inference to Lemond having a problem. That would be off base and not intended. Have had beers with him, however and some good stories. I consider him the hero that got me riding (that and seeing Rebecca Twigg in a skinsuit). His tone and direction disturb me. I'll show myself out of this discussion.

Firstly - I do not wish to see anyone feel the need to excuse themselves from a discussion. After all this is a public forum and I appreciate all views and in particular those that question and challenge my own.

........ Likewise you don't need to personally attack anyone that merely is skeptical or raises legitimate questions because you disagree. That type of interaction is discrediting the Forums in general.

This is a quote from you to someone earlier on in this thread.

It is a value that I too try to adhere to - I believe I have failed in this instance to observe that and apologize if I caused you any offense.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

There's a posting from a couple months ago on Steve Tilfords site (http://stevetilford.com/?p=18785#more-18785) that has some interesting responses within the comment section. In particular, two apparent "pros" call out Lemond for doping.

I've been lurking around here for a long time but I don't remember seeing these specific allegations. Are they well known? Also: anyone know who these guys might be?

 

[thehog]

There's a posting from a couple months ago on Steve Tilfords site (http://stevetilford.com/?p=18785#more-18785) that has some interesting responses within the comment section. In particular, two apparent "pros" call out Lemond for doping.

I've been lurking around here for a long time but I don't remember seeing these specific allegations. Are they well known? Also: anyone know who these guys might be?

It was good of the person who left the comment on the page to leave their name and link to who they are. Oliver Starr. Who didn’t even race as a professional at the time of LeMond! (http://owstarr.com/about/)

He certainly does have a impressive European history of racing :

1990
Spago - Finlandia (United States of America)
1991
Spago - Finlandia (United States of America)
1992
Scott - BiKyle Flyers (United States of America)
1993
Alpinestars (Italy)
1994
Individual (Unknown)
1995
Guiltless Gourmet (United States of America)
1997
Village Peddler (United States of America)

 

[BotanyBay]

It was good of the person who left the comment on the page to leave their name and link to who they are. Oliver Starr. Who didn’t even race as a professional at the time of LeMond!

I raced with Oliver Starr. We were both juniors when Lemond was first winning the TDF. Starr was an almost univerally disliked rider. A complete and utter loner. A talented rider with OTC pedigree, but so completely full of himself (had the "joe-pro" attitude even at age 16) that he rode completely alone. If he didn't know you from the OTC, he wouldn;t even talk to you. Now he's some self-appointed internet media guru.

 

[Digger]

I raced with Oliver Starr. We were both juniors when Lemond was first winning the TDF. Starr was an almost univerally disliked rider. A complete and utter loner. A talented rider with OTC pedigree, but so completely full of himself (had the "joe-pro" attitude even at age 16) that he rode completely alone. If he didn't know you from the OTC, he wouldn;t even talk to you. Now he's some self-appointed internet media guru.

.............

 

[Polish]

Greg is either the 2nd biggest comeback story, or the 2nd biggest fraud.

 

[BotanyBay]

Starr wrote:

Please recall that during the tail end of his career and particularly for his epic world championship victory, EPO was commonly available but undetectable by the then state-of-the-art testing.

Starr is a complete idiot in this statement. That worlds was in 1989. EPO was not "widely available" then. It wasn't even approved by the FDA until 1993:

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/04/briefing/4037b2_04_fda-aranesp-procrit.htm

 

[hrotha]

I raced with Oliver Starr. We were both juniors when Lemond was first winning the TDF. Starr was an almost univerally disliked rider. A complete and utter loner. A talented rider with OTC pedigree, but so completely full of himself (had the "joe-pro" attitude even at age 16) that he rode completely alone. If he didn't know you from the OTC, he wouldn;t even talk to you. Now he's some self-appointed internet media guru.

The relevant question is not whether he's a nice guy, but whether he's well informed.

And it certainly looks like he's talking out of his *** here. Judging from his history, he doesn't have any insider info on LeMond, and from the looks of it he doesn't have any outsider info either, because he says stuff like this:

I’ve raced with BOTH Landis and Lemond (as well as Armstrong). Of the three, LeMond is the most likely to have used controlled substances and gotten away with it. Please recall that during the tail end of his career and particularly for his epic world championship victory, EPO was commonly available

 

[BotanyBay]

The relevant question is not whether he's a nice guy, but whether he's well informed.

And it certainly looks like he's talking out of his *** here. Judging from his history, he doesn't have any insider info on LeMond, and from the looks of it he doesn't have any outsider info either, because he says stuff like this:

I knew I disliked Starr back then. He was a narcissist back then, and that clearly hasn't changed.

 

[The Hitch]

Greg is either the 2nd biggest comeback story, or the 2nd biggest fraud.

Or biggest comeback story. The first biggest has been disqualified as a fraud.

 

[thehog]

Well this mystifying subplot has come to a dead-end.

Can someone take Lance’s access away for the day?

 

[pmcg76]

Having read the comments of Olive Starr, a few things need to be highlighted.
Of all LeMonds Tour victories, 1990 would be the most suspicious considering where he was at the Tour de Trump as Starr mentioned. In 89(this seems to get ignored a lot)LeMond actually had very good early season, Top 10 Tour of Americas, Criterium International, Tirreno-Adriatico and 16th at Het Volk. His form then just seemed to desert him overnight and he started to struggle again but he was never as bad as he was in 1990.

LeMond did come into the 1990 season badly overweight and out of shape, he really struggled through the first half of the season as Starr noted. However it wasnt training that saw LeMond progress rapidly as Starr suggested, it was that old fashioned style of getting in shape, racing, lots of racing.

The Tour de Trump finished on May 13, LeMond then started the Giro on May 18, he was still far from top form but was active getting in an 139kn break in the mountains on stage 15. The Giro finished on June 6 and LeMond then started the Tour of Switzerland June 13-22 in which he finished 10th overall. The Tour started on June 30th and the first major encounter was the TT on stage 7. In a 7 week period up to the end of Switzerland, LeMond raced for 40 days!!! Thats more than some current GT riders do in a season and his progression is linear.

In modern day racing, we have exactly the opposite. Riders not racing and heading of on training camps and then showing up at the Tour in shape. Racing and suffering was always considered the best way of getting in shape but that all changed with the advent of EPO.

I like the way that Starr lables ALL euro pros as dopers yet he never raced there. He seems to be trading of limited stories from others. Does he know for fact that guys like Mottet, Delion, Helvetia were dirty or is he falling into the easy(they all do it) trap based on what a few people say.

I would never rule out the possibility of LeMond doping but until we get something from more first hand, I reserve judgement.