LeMond II

[Digger]

He told Floyd to come fully clean. He felt he could save the sport.

You criticise JV for telling Floyd not to fully come clean on everything he knows and then do it to Greg when he wants him to do otherwise.

That's not the point high up or low down...how can you be so far off...

Greg was mouthing to the press, then phoned Floyd - no problem with the call - but then went public with the phone call and intimated that Floyd admitted to doping

The point is why he involves himself in this type of situation, speaks to the press and then calls other dopers the greatest of all time.

But well done on missing the whole point.


Still waiting for you to answer about my previous question I have repeatedly asked you and you are clearly afraid to answer.

 

[gooner]

That's not the point high up or low down...how can you be so far off...

Greg was mouthing to the press, then phoned Floyd - no problem with the call - but then went public with the phone call and intimated that Floyd admitted to doping

The point is why he involves himself in this type of situation, speaks to the press and then calls other dopers the greatest of all time.

But well done on missing the whole point.

Oh dear, you clearly failed to see the obvious point I was making.

“I was very clear that I didn’t judge that he did or didn’t because the B sample wasn’t positive at the time,” LeMond continued, adding that he told Landis that he could “single handedly salvage the sport” by “[coming] clean.”

That's why he stuck his nose in it. It was an opportunity regarding the welfare of the sport.

Greg isn't flawless, no one is. We all have our faults and I don't agree with his opinion on Pantani.

You say you see this from a hypocrisy point of view but as the question goes "what is it about these dopers you admire so much?" You have the cheek and brass neck to have a go at Greg when you have the position of worshipping guys like Di Luca, Ricco, Floyd and your latest buddy Bruyneel. You have your little constant go at Tygart and then say that Floyd and Di Luca were speaking sense when they called for legalising doping.

This is the essence of your mindset:

It's OK if riders are doping as long as they are not hypocrites(what you claim to see in Di Luca, Ricco, Bruyneel) but it's not OK if you're likely clean and then show a small bit of hypocrisy(Lemond).

Unbelievable.

Still waiting for you to answer about my previous question I have repeatedly asked you and you are clearly afraid to answer.

I've answered that already sunshine. Do keep up.

 

[Digger]

Oh dear, you clearly failed to see the obvious point I was making.



That's why he stuck his nose in it. It was an opportunity regarding the welfare of the sport.

Greg isn't flawless, no one is. We all have our faults and I don't agree with his opinion on Pantani.

You say you see this from a hypocrisy point of view but as the question goes "what is it about these dopers you admire so much?" You have the cheek and brass neck to have a go at Greg when you have the position of worshipping guys like Di Luca, Ricco, Floyd and your latest buddy Bruyneel. You have your little constant go at Tygart and then say that Floyd and Di Luca were speaking sense when they called for legalising doping.

This is the essence of your mindset:

It's OK if riders are doping as long as they are not hypocrites(what you claim to see in Di Luca, Ricco, Bruyneel) but it's not OK if you're likely clean and then show a small bit of hypocrisy(Lemond).

Unbelievable.



I've answered that already sunshine. Do keep up.

You accept Greg is a hypocrite.

As for the rest you'll never understand. Like the majority don't.

 

[Franklin]

About Hinault retiring - one thing not mentioned was the pay scales.

This changed a bit for the big stars in the eighties. And Stars don't get bigger than Hinault.

Hinault last contracts were quite good indeed. Keep in mind that Greg negotiated top Dollar, but Hinault was undisputed the star and the leader. Also, Fignon made quite a bit after 1983.

After 2nd WW the top always could leave cycling set for life. The real issue was coping with life after cycling. Some people gambled or partied their money away. Or another common story: their advisors ran of with the money

It sure got a LOT better for the lower echelons, no discussion ofc and generally rider management has taken a HUGE flight, which certainly helps the riders reintegrating. The risk of exploiting is smaller as these instances rely on their good reputation by their clients: athletes. That's largely by worh of mouth.

But since we are discussing Hinault; you can be assured he could have made a million+ in salary, prices and start fees for another year.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

As for the rest you'll never understand. Like the majority don't.

So, enlighten us, the non - understanding - rest, with your wisdom over the matter.

Question, do you rate Landis as an hypocrite?

on Boyer:

Greg: No, never saw anybody…I remember my first year pro at the team presentation, my wife was sitting with Jonathan Boyer’s wife, and Jonathan Boyer’s wife said ‘Well now that Greg’s pro, he’s going to have to take drugs.’ And my wife’s like ‘What! He’s not going to take drugs. He’d rather quit.’ And she got up and said ‘You are so ****ing naïve…you are a stupid naïve *****.’

Interesting, maybe Greg just didnt like his fellow countryman?

 

[Digger]

So, enlighten us, the non - understanding - rest, with your wisdom over the matter.

Question, do you rate Landis as an hypocrite?

Do you?

Do you think greg isn't one?

 

[gooner]

As for the rest you'll never understand. Like the majority don't.

Why don't you address it then?

Greg bad.

Floyd, Ricco, Di Luca, Bruyneel good.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Do you?

Do you think greg isn't one?

Is that a serious question?

I dont think you will find many people here who havent frowned their eyebrows with some of LeMond's interviews the last years.

Is he a hypocrite when he stands beside Epo Mig and calls him one of the greatest of all time or is he being pragmatic? I find it hypocritical but I dont have a million dollar buisiness to sell. Do you?

Being pragmatic isnt as bad as you make it look like.

Sure, he could say all those thing we - 1% of the cycling audience, tops - want him to say, but, what would that bring?

And, do keep in mind, LeMond only got involved in that Armstrong feud because he stated he was dissappointed in him working with Ferrari.

 

[Benotti69]

Why don't you address it then?

Greg bad.

Floyd, Ricco, Di Luca, Bruyneel good.

No.

Greg hypocrite

Floyd, Ricco, Di Luca, Bruyneel not hypocrite

 

[deValtos]

Why don't you address it then?

Greg bad.

Floyd, Ricco, Di Luca, Bruyneel good.

You must have noticed the trend over the past couple years in the clinic that the source of moral anguish has shifted from outrage at doping or the facilitation of doping instead to "burn the hypocrites."

Some people want confirmation that hating one doper is ok but not another. They don't like their feelings being hurt, "Mum, SKY is lying to me again !". They want to feel vindicated that their preference of certain riders is equitable on another level irrespective of doping.

It's just obfuscating the actual issue, doping is (and has always been) the bottom line. I hope this "trend" goes away.

 

[Benotti69]

You must have noticed the trend over the past couple years in the clinic that the source of moral anguish has shifted from outrage at doping or the facilitation of doping instead to "burn the hypocrites."

no it hasn't. But some posters are tired of the hypocrisy in the sport where the Armstrongs, Riccos, Landis, Di Lucas are considered the scum of the sport and yet the Bassos, COntadors, Vaughters, Millars, Rogers etc are good guys.

Some people want confirmation that hating one doper is ok but not another. They don't like their feelings being hurt, "Mum, SKY is lying to me again !". They want to feel vindicated that their preference of certain riders is equitable on another level irrespective of doping.

No LeMond is being called on his hypocrisy in slamming Americans who won the tour doped, but patting the likes of Indruain, Hinault, Merckx and also singing the praises of Pantani, all unrepentant dopers....

It's just obfuscating the actual issue, doping is (and has always been) the bottom line. I hope this "trend" goes away.

The obfuscation is that things have gotten cleanER and there are clean guys winning the big races....

 

[Race Radio]

no it hasn't. But some posters are tired of the hypocrisy in the sport where the Armstrongs, Riccos, Landis, Di Lucas are considered the scum of the sport and yet the Bassos, COntadors, Vaughters, Millars, Rogers etc are good guys.

Wait, landis is on the bad guy list now? Bummer, I like that guy

I can understand why some folks would be angry that Greg does not yell about all dopers.......but that does not mean we should re-write history and pretend that Boyer could have won in 82, that is just silly.

Johan liked it though, he just started babbling about it on Twitter. Good to know he reads the forum. Expect he has lots of time on his hands now.

Hi Johan

 

[ChrisE]

Is he a hypocrite when he stands beside Epo Mig and calls him one of the greatest of all time or is he being pragmatic? I find it hypocritical but I dont have a million dollar buisiness to sell. Do you?

.

So, he's just a wh0re then?

Good to see the worm turning on this clown. Even Benotti is catching on.....GL becomes anti-doping when his American legacy is challenged. Some of us have been saying this (and being shouted down by the GL fanboys) for quite some time. July 2001 the light came on lol. Welcome to sanity, Benotti.

Digger - good posts on this thread.

 

[deValtos]

no it hasn't. But some posters are tired of the hypocrisy in the sport where the Armstrongs, Riccos, Landis, Di Lucas are considered the scum of the sport and yet the Bassos, COntadors, Vaughters, Millars, Rogers etc are good guys.

Fair enough that someone is tired of seeing Ricco, Landis etc being considered scum compared to a Contador, Basso ... no difference ...

But then when that exact poster starts praising the likes of Contador, Valverde over say a Froome, Wiggins it all goes right out the window ...

Your views may be fairly consistent but you can't honnestly tell me you haven't seen the above hypocrisy demonstrated more and more to the point where I would call it a "trend".

In fact the level to which I've seen it demonstrated is bordering on ridiculous, which was why I brought it up.

So in reply to your "no it hasn't", it most certainly has ...

No LeMond is being called on his hypocrisy in slamming Americans who won the tour doped, but patting the likes of Indruain, Hinault, Merckx and also singing the praises of Pantani, all unrepentant dopers....

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that LeMond is being a total marshmallow regarding his opinions you've just described ... it doesn't make Lemond worse than a doper though.

The obfuscation is that things have gotten cleanER and there are clean guys winning the big races....

That may be another obfuscation but nonetheless irrelevant to my point.

 

[Digger]

Sean Kelly on 1982:
"I don't think that Boyer was fading...He got quite a good gap. Nobody wanted to go after him...Yes, LeMond chased down Boyer. Boyer was the only man up the road."

 

[Digger]

the funny part here is that as much as many are 'disagreeing' with me, even they concede that greg is a hypocrite - which was ultimately my point....and others on the day of that worlds say he was wrong, which was my other point...

 

[ChrisE]

But let's get real GL being world champion looks a little better in history than Boyer.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Given the way Saronni won I very much doubt LeMond chasing him down made any difference in the end.

 

[Race Radio]

that's ironic...because unless you are following johan, you went into his timeline to see what he's saying.

I am not allowed to follow Johan? Sorry, I did not get the updated list of who we are allowed to follow and who we are not allowed to follow. Maybe you can post the list?

There really should be a thread as it is hard for me to keep up with who we are supposed to hate today

 

[sniper]

...
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that LeMond is being a total marshmallow regarding his opinions you've just described ... it doesn't make Lemond worse than a doper though.

nobody (afaik) says he is.

The Clinic also contains alot of posts on, say, David Walsh, more than on several known dopers.
It's, firstly, because as Benotti says, people are sick & tired of the hypocrisy. And secondly, because we hold guys like Lemond and Walsh to high standards.
Nobody holds a guy like Valverde or Vinokourov to such high standards. And, importantly, they don't put very high standards on themselves (unlike e.g. Sky, Garmin, Walsh). They are nobrainers and therefore not interesting topics for discussion.

As for Lemond, I don't think he's ever really put himself on the antidoping high horse as much as e.g. Walsh, Brailsford, Vaughters have. So I think it's fair to cut him some slack.

 

[Race Radio]

Sean Kelly on 1982:
"I don't think that Boyer was fading...He got quite a good gap. Nobody wanted to go after him...Yes, LeMond chased down Boyer. Boyer was the only man up the road."

What do you expect him to Say? They were teammates at the time, and in 1983, on Jean de Gribaldy's Sem team. Of course he was disappointed that his teammate did not win.......but lets not pretend that Jock actually had a chance of winning, that is just silly

 

[ChrisE]

There really should be a thread as it is hard for me to keep up with who we are supposed to look at critically, even though they are my hero, today

Fixed that for you.

 

[Digger]

I am not allowed to follow Johan? Sorry, I did not get the updated list of who we are allowed to follow and who we are not allowed to follow. Maybe you can post the list?

There really should be a thread as it is hard for me to keep up with who we are supposed to hate today

Well clearly your list won't extend beyond lance and johan.

So you follow johan on twitter and b**** about him...awesome!

 

[Digger]

What do you expect him to Say? They were teammates at the time, and in 1983, on Jean de Gribaldy's Sem team. Of course he was disappointed that his teammate did not win.......but lets not pretend that Jock actually had a chance of winning, that is just silly

I'm racing for Renault and I'm racing for myself. It's a business and it's my living

Ok...but if you get chased down or screwed by your teammates at a later date don't moan greg...oh wait.

 

[Digger]

What do you expect him to Say? They were teammates at the time, and in 1983, on Jean de Gribaldy's Sem team. Of course he was disappointed that his teammate did not win.......but lets not pretend that Jock actually had a chance of winning, that is just silly

I'm racing for Renault and I'm racing for myself. It's a business and it's my living

Ok...but if you get chased down or screwed by your teammates at a later date don't moan greg...oh wait.

In another report for that day we have the journalist saying Jock was worth a medal but it was a pity Greg didn't think so...

You know what, let's assume Jock wouldn't have won - but greg doing what he did ensued that Jock didn't even medal.