LeMond III

[poupou]

Re: Re:

According to the same link, transfusions were done in cycling at least from the 60s onwards.

1960: Gastone Nencini of Italy was discovered by Tour de France doctor Pierre Dumas in his bedroom with plastic tubes running from each arm to a bottle of blood; retransfusion was a legal practice at the time.[31] In the 1930s, Scandinavian runners were believed to have used retransfusion to increase the number of corpuscles that carry oxygen to the muscles. In 1972, Dr Björn Ekblom of the Sport and Gymnastics Institute in Stockholm found that retransfusing cells increased oxygen uptake by nine per cent and athletic potential by 23 per cent.

And we know per his own admission that Zoetemelk was doing blood transfusions (interestingly to treat alleged anemia).

The same translation or interpretation error is here repeated, in the french version, Pierre Dumas never refere to blood doping but something like hormone.
I had by the past published here that french version with a link to the google book page. It would be fine to correct the english version to not perpetuate that error.
(Sorry I am in the hurry)

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

1990 is when it all went sideways. The eastern bloc countries started racing professionally and they brought in systematic doping to the pro peloton.[/quote]

....to the bolded...see below....

Le Haye- The epo circulated among the most cunning of the peleton already in the late 80’s. The evidence of this is the confession of the ex dutch rider Steven Rooks, winner of the polka dot jersey as best climber in the Tour de France 1988. In a book with the title “The last yellow” written by dutch journalist Mart Smeets and published this week, Rooks admits “Yes I took the epo. It was necessary to arrive among the top riders.” He admits to using it in 1988 in which he won the stage of the Alpe d’Huez at the tour, and he placed second in the general classification behind Pedro Delgado. In the same book, two other Dutch riders of that time, Gert Jakobs and Matthieu Hermans, also admitted to the use of epo.

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

It’s interesting when people shine 2016 thinking on the early 80s. You call out LeMond for not being dominate. But he was. Back then, riders didn't have jet backs they could put on every couple of days and produce 'dominate' performances. If LeMond is guilty of anything, it is that he didn't ride with panache. He was an outsider brought up in a caste system. Early in his career, he was always the second banana with first chair talents.
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....funny but someone forgot to send that memo to Fignon in 84....or Merckx for most of his career...or Maertens in the Vuelta...


...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

It’s interesting when people shine 2016 thinking on the early 80s. You call out LeMond for not being dominate. But he was. Back then, riders didn't have jet backs they could put on every couple of days and produce 'dominate' performances. If LeMond is guilty of anything, it is that he didn't ride with panache. He was an outsider brought up in a caste system. Early in his career, he was always the second banana with first chair talents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....funny but someone forgot to send that memo to Fignon in 84....or Merckx for most of his career...or Maertens in the Vuelta...


...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

Apparently there are a few memos they didn't get since Zoetemelk was using blood doping in the 70's and they didn't.

Lots of discoveries, here, all of a sudden.

 

[Spawn of e]

Re: Re:

It’s interesting when people shine 2016 thinking on the early 80s. You call out LeMond for not being dominate. But he was. Back then, riders didn't have jet backs they could put on every couple of days and produce 'dominate' performances. If LeMond is guilty of anything, it is that he didn't ride with panache. He was an outsider brought up in a caste system. Early in his career, he was always the second banana with first chair talents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....funny but someone forgot to send that memo to Fignon in 84....or Merckx for most of his career...or Maertens in the Vuelta...


...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

Apparently there are a few memos they didn't get since Zoetemelk was using blood doping in the 70's and they didn't.

Lots of discoveries, here, all of a sudden.

Google is your friend. Fortunately for GL fanboys it and alot of this other internet thingy stuff didn't exist in the 80's.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

It’s interesting when people shine 2016 thinking on the early 80s. You call out LeMond for not being dominate. But he was. Back then, riders didn't have jet backs they could put on every couple of days and produce 'dominate' performances. If LeMond is guilty of anything, it is that he didn't ride with panache. He was an outsider brought up in a caste system. Early in his career, he was always the second banana with first chair talents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....funny but someone forgot to send that memo to Fignon in 84....or Merckx for most of his career...or Maertens in the Vuelta...


...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

Apparently there are a few memos they didn't get since Zoetemelk was using blood doping in the 70's and they didn't.

Lots of discoveries, here, all of a sudden.

Google is your friend. Fortunately for GL fanboys it and alot of this other internet thingee stuff didn't exist in the 80's.

....to the bolded....that thingee thingee just done got fixed eh....now conforms to the Oxford Dictionary standard....and absolutely no need to gush out a huge thank you it was my pleasure entirely ( though a sizeable contribution to the bbf ( blutto benevolent fund ) would a nice and reasonable gesture....a couple of crates high grade single malt in lieu of gold specie will be just dandy... ) ...

....and btw ain't it just kinda weird that PDM of all teams was first to the trough in the race to turn donkeys into thoroughbreds....and Rooks and Theunisse, The Twin Uglies , right there at the head of the line ( like really who would have guessed !? ....

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

It’s interesting when people shine 2016 thinking on the early 80s. You call out LeMond for not being dominate. But he was. Back then, riders didn't have jet backs they could put on every couple of days and produce 'dominate' performances. If LeMond is guilty of anything, it is that he didn't ride with panache. He was an outsider brought up in a caste system. Early in his career, he was always the second banana with first chair talents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....funny but someone forgot to send that memo to Fignon in 84....or Merckx for most of his career...or Maertens in the Vuelta...


...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

Apparently there are a few memos they didn't get since Zoetemelk was using blood doping in the 70's and they didn't.

Lots of discoveries, here, all of a sudden.

Google is your friend. Fortunately for GL fanboys it and alot of this other internet thingee stuff didn't exist in the 80's.

....to the bolded....that thingee thingee just done got fixed eh....now conforms to the Oxford Dictionary standard....and absolutely no need to gush out a huge thank you it was my pleasure entirely ( though a sizeable contribution to the bbf ( blutto benevolent fund ) would a nice and reasonable gesture....a couple of crates high grade single malt in lieu of gold specie will be just dandy... ) ...

Cheers

I don't buy that ****.

I will put a bottle of Chianti in the mail. Are we square?

Seriously, don't screw with the GL fanboys. It's so 2010. Let them have their hero.

...I'm nice and sweet and accommodating and you offer me cheap Eye-talian swill, I asked for just a couple of crates for heaven's sake....I'm disappointed on so many levels !....if I were a lesser person I would be very cross indeed...

Cheers

 

[Spawn of e]

Re: Re:

...I'm nice and sweet and accommodating and you offer me cheap Eye-talian swill, I asked for just a couple of crates for heaven's sake....I'm disappointed on so many levels !....if I were a lesser person I would be very cross indeed...

Cheers

C'mon on mr. blutto. If I send you cheap wine it would be Boones Farm. Fond memories of my childhood drinking 3 bottles of that and then falling down in an ant bed, only to realize 2 minutes later that my legs and crotch were burning not unlike after dollar day in Bangkok.

Back on topic, I implore you to leave the GL fanboys alone. No need to point out inconvenient timelines about EPO use, or what would happen if the internet existed when Superman, long before the evil LA foil offered all that cover, was slaying the Euros in the 80's under questionable circumstances. Just think, the only clean winner in modern cycling enduring such scrutiny! I cringe at the thought.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Seriously, don't screw with the GL fanboys. It's so 2010. Let them have their hero.

As opposed to your "hero" which is who exactly? Why do you dislike LeMond so much, explain please?

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

...I'm nice and sweet and accommodating and you offer me cheap Eye-talian swill, I asked for just a couple of crates for heaven's sake....I'm disappointed on so many levels !....if I were a lesser person I would be very cross indeed...

Cheers

C'mon on mr. blutto. If I send you cheap wine it would be Boones Farm. Fond memories of my childhood drinking 3 bottles of that and then falling down in an ant bed, only to realize 2 minutes later that my legs and crotch were burning not unlike after dollar day in Bangkok.

Back on topic, I implore you to leave the GL fanboys alone. No need to point out inconvenient timelines about EPO use, or what would happen if the internet existed when Superman, long before the evil LA foil offered all that cover, was slaying the Euros in the 80's under questionable circumstances. Just think, the only clean winner in modern cycling enduring such scrutiny! I cringe at the thought.

i raise u petrus

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

It’s interesting when people shine 2016 thinking on the early 80s. You call out LeMond for not being dominate. But he was. Back then, riders didn't have jet backs they could put on every couple of days and produce 'dominate' performances. If LeMond is guilty of anything, it is that he didn't ride with panache. He was an outsider brought up in a caste system. Early in his career, he was always the second banana with first chair talents.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....funny but someone forgot to send that memo to Fignon in 84....or Merckx for most of his career...or Maertens in the Vuelta...


...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

Apparently there are a few memos they didn't get since Zoetemelk was using blood doping in the 70's and they didn't.

Lots of discoveries, here, all of a sudden.

Google is your friend. Fortunately for GL fanboys it and alot of this other internet thingee stuff didn't exist in the 80's.

....to the bolded....that thingee thingee just done got fixed eh....now conforms to the Oxford Dictionary standard....and absolutely no need to gush out a huge thank you it was my pleasure entirely ( though a sizeable contribution to the bbf ( blutto benevolent fund ) would a nice and reasonable gesture....a couple of crates high grade single malt in lieu of gold specie will be just dandy... ) ...

....and btw ain't it just kinda weird that PDM of all teams was first to the trough in the race to turn donkeys into thoroughbreds....and Rooks and Theunisse, The Twin Uglies , right there at the head of the line ( like really who would have guessed !? ....

Cheers

There's a lot to say about PDM but calling Rooks a donkey ? He won Liège Bastogne Liège when he was 23. Like Indurain, he was good before EPO.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Seriously, don't screw with the GL fanboys. It's so 2010. Let them have their hero.

As opposed to your "hero" which is who exactly? Why do you dislike LeMond so much, explain please?

Never feed the trolls.

Seriously, this "GL fanboys" is completely out of line. Work your magic on Google but don't attack us for who we are. It's been 3 posts already, I think everyone gets the gesture.

 

[poupou]

Re: Re:

According to the same link, transfusions were done in cycling at least from the 60s onwards.

1960: Gastone Nencini of Italy was discovered by Tour de France doctor Pierre Dumas in his bedroom with plastic tubes running from each arm to a bottle of blood;..

The same translation or interpretation error is here repeated, in the french version, Pierre Dumas never refere to blood doping but something like hormone.
I had by the past published here that french version with a link to the google book page. It would be fine to correct the english version to not perpetuate that error.
(Sorry I am in the hurry)

That is Pierre Mondenard who wrote the story in his book "Dictionnaire du dopage" about his friend Dumas who had seen Nencini.
And of course, that is hormones transfusion.
From

En 1960, Pierre Dumas fait une ronde dans les chambres des coureurs. Il entre dans celle du futur vainqueur, Gastone Nencini qui se trouve sur son lit avec un tube de plastique dans chaque bras relié à une bouteille contenant des hormones. Cependant, l'injection d'hormone n'était pas illégale à cette époque et donc, Nencini ne put être disqualifié.

https://books.google.com/books?id=RjAInSNJkbYC&dq=dictionnaire+du+dopage&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitiMyKqJ_LAhVFWxoKHcgzD5EQ6AEIJjAA
Book extract:

 

[sniper]

Cheers poupou, good spot.
How widespread do you think blood transfusions were in the GTs in the 80s? Any kind of guess is welcome.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

@gjb123, I guess this could've been one way to circumvent a lack of refrigeration facilities during the tour in the 80s.

It's also next to bloody useless, you're supposed to separate out the red cells for it to be beneficial.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

According to the same link, transfusions were done in cycling at least from the 60s onwards.

How many times is it going to be necessary to point out the error in the Nencini story before people get the message? It's wrong. It didn't happen, least ways not in the way people think it did. It was not a transfusion.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Blood transfusions weren't banned when Lemond started out as a pro, so it seems fair to ask why he wouldn't be doing it.

It might be fair to ask but it's a still a stupid question.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Well, this is interesting. UCI and IOC supposedly consolidated their prohibitions lists in 1990. Yet, according to this history of blood-doping, IOC banned EPO in 1990, but UCI waited until sometime after the Vuelta in 1991 to ban EPO.

So UCI banned EPO sometime after May 19, 1991. Still trying to find out when UCI banned autologous blood transfusion.

UCI banned list was usually updated at Congress during the Worlds.

Since the IOC banned all blood transfusions in (off the top of my head here) 1985 it's safe to guess the UCI adopted the updated list the following year.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
It's also next to bloody useless, you're supposed to separate out the red cells for it to be beneficial.

since (from the top of my head) four of the nine athletes subjected to the method were medal winners, it seems it was beneficial, whatever they did.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
How many times is it going to be necessary to point out the error in the Nencini story before people get the message? It's wrong. It didn't happen, least ways not in the way people think it did. It was not a transfusion.

poupou just pointed it out and I acknowledged it.

As a specialist on the matter, what's your view on blood transfusions throughout the 80s in GTs?
Your otherwise excellent tri-fold overview seemed to have a comparatively small focus on the 80s, except for the LA 84 episode.

...
It might be fair to ask but it's a still a stupid question.

do expand.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

since (from the top of my head) four of the nine athletes subjected to the method were medal winners, it seems it was beneficial, whatever they did.

That is not a logical conclusion. Since the Russkies stayed home the Yanks were expected to do well, with or without doping.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Your otherwise excellent tri-fold overview seemed to have a comparatively small focus on the 80s, except for the LA 84 episode.

If you think the three articles ignored transfusion in the 1980s save for LA84 I respectively suggest you reread the articles.

do expand.

Just because something was not banned it does not follow that people - in large numbers - did it.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

That is not a logical conclusion.

I agree it's not a necessary conclusion.
But not illogical either.

Since the Russkies stayed home the Yanks were expected to do well, with or without doping.

This is a circular argument. One reason they were expected to do well might have been that they were doping and transfusing for a long long time prior to 84. My guess is if they'd been clean the years before, they wouldn't have been 'expected to do wel' in 84 at all.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Well, this is interesting. UCI and IOC supposedly consolidated their prohibitions lists in 1990. Yet, according to this history of blood-doping, IOC banned EPO in 1990, but UCI waited until sometime after the Vuelta in 1991 to ban EPO.

So UCI banned EPO sometime after May 19, 1991. Still trying to find out when UCI banned autologous blood transfusion.

UCI banned list was usually updated at Congress during the Worlds.

Since the IOC banned all blood transfusions in (off the top of my head here) 1985 it's safe to guess the UCI adopted the updated list the following year.

Thanks. That makes sense. I do recall reading that IOC banned transfusion in 1985. It's only after you mentioned it that I vaguely recall reading that UCI would follow through IOC prohibitions, usually, the following year at their congress.

According to this document (PDF), the 1986 UCI World Congress was held in November. This would mean that blood transfusion was not banned in cycling prior to November, 1986. EPO, as previously noted, was not banned by UCI until 1991.

So when LeMond won the Tour de France in 1986, autologous blood transfusion was not a banned practice, and when he won the 89 and 90 Tours, EPO was not a banned substance. Mind you, in pointing this out I'm not trying to imply that LeMond transfused or used EPO; I'm merely addressing myself to the point MarkvW made earlier: that if it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating. Kind of like a tri bar.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

If you think the three articles ignored transfusion in the 1980s save for LA84 I respectively suggest you reread the articles.

I didn't say you ignore the 80s. My point is you don't discuss anything wrt what might or might not have happened in the GTs in the 80s. If that is because there is no info on that, then just say so.
So, again, what's your view on the use of transfusions (or lack thereof) in GTs in the 80s?

Just because something was not banned it does not follow that people - in large numbers - did it.

Did I say that? No I didn't.
I formulated a question.
The expertise was there in the US, and Lemond was in contact with people who had the expertise (Borysewicz a.o.). Lemond had a winners mentality. The pressure was on him from the day he became a pro. Transfusions weren't banned. So yes, it's fair to ask: why wouldn't Lemond be using transfusions?

But whatever, fmk.
I'd love you to share your expertise, as you have loads of it.
But this looks like pointless nitpicking.