LeMond III

[sniper]

really? where?

epo and hgh spread like wildfire viz. became easily purchasable from the late 80s/early 90s onwards.
that's not really up for discussion (except for details wrt first-usage, etc.) and it obviously changed the landscape.

according to some, the real gamechanger was the combination of epo and hgh, one apparently reinforcing the other.

 

[Nick C.]

Re: Re:

The debate about Lemond's supposedly "uber cleanliness" is moot to some extent : the fact remains that if Lemond doped, he doped like Fignon or Hinault the old fashioned way, not like the Indurains and Chiapuccis...

The old fashioned way. Oxygen vector doping, with blood bags instead of injections? Take off the rose tinted glasses. The doping in the 80s was a lot more powerful than you think.

Exactly.

I think this is the tete a tete being referenced.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

really? where?

epo and hgh spread like wildfire viz. became easily purchasable from the late 80s/early 90s onwards.
that's not really up for discussion (except for details wrt first-usage, etc.) and it obviously changed the landscape.

according to some, the real gamechanger was the combination of epo and hgh, one apparently reinforcing the other.

Exactly. Which is why using blood was not widespread. EPO and other intravenous drugs were easy to procure, transport, and use with a high degree of safety. Blood is hard to get, difficult to store and transport, and has a certain chance of killing you. Just ask Ricco and Manzano. There is no doubt that some people injected blood some of the time. But EPO was everybody, all of the time.

The effects of a blood bag are temporary and it would be nigh impossible to use regularly throughout a season. My best guess is that it was used prior to big events like the Olympics, the World's or an hour record attempt. It's incredibly unlikely that if you're talking about a champion that they became one by blood boosting.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

... It's incredibly unlikely that if you're talking about a champion that they became one by blood boosting.

John Swanson

that's fair enough, although we know through Zoetemelk and PDM that blood doping during GTs was happening.


To change the topic a bit away from blood doping: it's interesting to see the discussion around Wiggins' allergies and the drugs he got injected to treat them.
Imagine the potential gains of having an immunologist/allergist traveling with you to GTs.

1991: LeMond was forced to drop out of the Tour of Italy in June because he was suffering from fatigue. His father-in-law, Dave Morris, an immunologist, said the cause was never determined, but LeMond was getting regular blood tests. LeMond's lawyer, Nathan Jenkins, said the blood disorder was being treated with shots.
...
That night team doctors took blood samples that revealed that LeMond's white blood cell count was elevated to nearly twice its normal levels. Dr. David Morris, Kathy LeMond's immunologist father, saw the open sores on his son-in-law's feet and diagnosed an infection
http://www.si.com/vault/1991/08/05/124658/tour-de-courage-greg-lemond-fought-sickness-and-adversity-in-the-78th-tour-de-france-and-finished-a-hero-though-not-a-winner

In 1990, LeMond suffered through a miserable spring during which he could barely train without becoming fatigued. [David] Morris diagnosed LeMond's ailment as Epstein-Barr Syndrome, an illness similar to infectious mononucleosis. After treatments, LeMond went on to win the Tour. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-21/sports/sp-399_1_greg-lemond

 

[sniper]

To add to the above, it looks like Greg treated his pollen allergy with cortisone too, similar to Wiggins.

The delicate thing is this: I suffered from allergies throughout my career and I've realised, post career, that I was drastically hindered by allergies during the month of May. But you can test for that - to see which pollens bring it on; these are legitimate back up tests for a TUE. Now the medication for things like this is cortisone, but it's obviously not the best thing to do to take cortisone throughout a three-week race.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/blazin-saddles/lemond-predicts-froome-contador-shoot-eurosport-announce-widest-113533624.html?

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

To add to the above, it looks like Greg treated his pollen allergy with cortisone too, similar to Wiggins.

The delicate thing is this: I suffered from allergies throughout my career and I've realised, post career, that I was drastically hindered by allergies during the month of May. But you can test for that - to see which pollens bring it on; these are legitimate back up tests for a TUE. Now the medication for things like this is cortisone, but it's obviously not the best thing to do to take cortisone throughout a three-week race.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/blazin-saddles/lemond-predicts-froome-contador-shoot-eurosport-announce-widest-113533624.html?

There is no possible way that you can read that and come up with Greg taking cortisone...

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

I'd say the exact opposite.
There is no possible way that you can read that and come up with Greg not taking cortisone...

 

[Nomad]

Re:

really? where?

epo and hgh spread like wildfire viz. became easily purchasable from the late 80s/early 90s onwards.
that's not really up for discussion (except for details wrt first-usage, etc.) and it obviously changed the landscape.

according to some, the real gamechanger was the combination of epo and hgh, one apparently reinforcing the other.

Interesting point on the synergistic effects of EPO & HGH. I had heard riders say the same thing. For example, Riis said he used only cortisone before 93 when he then combined the EPO-HGH stack...and suddenly became one of the best climbers in the peloton. Same stack with LA & Pantani...and no need to reiterate their phenomenal climbing ability. Was the EPO-HGH stack generally widespread during the 90s? Was this something Concini & Ferrari had worked out in the lab?

OTOH, EPO by itself appears to produce extraordinary results in endurance performance. For example, the Thomsen et al. EPO study with cyclists showed for some test subjects a ~12% increase in VO2max, ~13% increase in wattage and improved time to exhaustion by ~54% (Eur J Appl Physiol /2007). And that was with only about a ~20% increase in Hct levels. I also seen studies with distance runners cutting an average of 33 seconds from their 3000m time...incredible.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17668232

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

I'd say the exact opposite.
There is no possible way that you can read that and come up with Greg not taking cortisone...

Parse away, young Jedi.

John Swanson

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

A question on LeMond: What was his fastest time up Alpe d'Huez? (I believe he rode it in all three of his Tour winning years).

AdH was only a summit finish in his 1989 TdF win. It wasn't ridden in 1986 or 1990.

In 1989 he was 1:19 slower than Delgado and Fignon on AdH on Stage 17 and conceded the yellow to Fignon.
Lemond's AdH ascent time was 43:34

 

[djpbaltimore]

Dr. Morris was a pioneer in a totally different type of allergy treatment. The cortisone thing is really just another red herring.

 

[Nomad]

A question on LeMond: What was his fastest time up Alpe d'Huez? (I believe he rode it in all three of his Tour winning years).

AdH was only a summit finish in his 1989 TdF win. It wasn't ridden in 1986 or 1990.

In 1989 he was 1:19 slower than Delgado and Fignon on AdH on Stage 17 and conceded the yellow to Fignon.
Lemond's AdH ascent time was 43:34

You've lost me on this one: From the Wikipedia sites, it's showing ADH in the 86 Tour stage 18: Bancon to Alpe d'Huez (Hinault). Wasn't this the iconic battle to the summit between Hinault & LeMond?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/8648055/Tour-de-France-Bernard-Hinault-and-Greg-LeMonds-Alpe-dHuez-duel-was-the-highlight-of-greatest-ever-Tour.html

And the 1990 Tour is showing stage 11: Saint-Gervais to Alpe d'Huez (Bugno):

https://youtu.be/l8ki0bfHJPg:

However, I'm not finding any ascent times for either Hinault, Bugno or LeMond in 86 or 90.

 

[jens_attacks]

http://www.climbing-records.com/2015/07/alpe-dhuez-quintana-super-fast-and.html

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

A question on LeMond: What was his fastest time up Alpe d'Huez? (I believe he rode it in all three of his Tour winning years).

AdH was only a summit finish in his 1989 TdF win. It wasn't ridden in 1986 or 1990.

In 1989 he was 1:19 slower than Delgado and Fignon on AdH on Stage 17 and conceded the yellow to Fignon.
Lemond's AdH ascent time was 43:34

You've lost me on this one: From the Wikipedia sites, it's showing ADH in the 86 Tour stage 18: Bancon to Alpe d'Huez (Hinault). Wasn't this the iconic battle to the summit between Hinault & LeMond?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/8648055/Tour-de-France-Bernard-Hinault-and-Greg-LeMonds-Alpe-dHuez-duel-was-the-highlight-of-greatest-ever-Tour.html

And the 1990 Tour is showing stage 11: Saint-Gervais to Alpe d'Huez (Bugno):

https://youtu.be/l8ki0bfHJPg:

However, I'm not finding any ascent times for either Hinault, Bugno or LeMond in 86 or 90.

My bad, you're right. They did ride in those years as well.

However I have no ascent time data for those other two years. The 89 ascent times for Delgado and Fignon appeared in a top 200 list a couple of years ago so we can reasonably assume either the 86 and 90 ascent times were slower and hence outside the then top 200 or it was not possible to ascertain the ascent times. I suspect the former since the top 200 did contain Breu's time from 1982, and Herrera, Figon and Delgado's times from 1987.

 

[StryderHells]

A question on LeMond: What was his fastest time up Alpe d'Huez? (I believe he rode it in all three of his Tour winning years).

AdH was only a summit finish in his 1989 TdF win. It wasn't ridden in 1986 or 1990.

In 1989 he was 1:19 slower than Delgado and Fignon on AdH on Stage 17 and conceded the yellow to Fignon.
Lemond's AdH ascent time was 43:34

You've lost me on this one: From the Wikipedia sites, it's showing ADH in the 86 Tour stage 18: Bancon to Alpe d'Huez (Hinault). Wasn't this the iconic battle to the summit between Hinault & LeMond?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/8648055/Tour-de-France-Bernard-Hinault-and-Greg-LeMonds-Alpe-dHuez-duel-was-the-highlight-of-greatest-ever-Tour.html

And the 1990 Tour is showing stage 11: Saint-Gervais to Alpe d'Huez (Bugno):

https://youtu.be/l8ki0bfHJPg:

However, I'm not finding any ascent times for either Hinault, Bugno or LeMond in 86 or 90.

My bad, you're right. They did ride in those years as well.

However I have no ascent time data for those other two years. The 89 ascent times for Delgado and Fignon appeared in a top 200 list a couple of years ago so we can reasonably assume either the 86 and 90 ascent times were slower and hence outside the then top 200 or it was not possible to ascertain the ascent times. I suspect the former since the top 200 did contain Breu's time from 1982, and Herrera, Figon and Delgado's times from 1987.

From a very unreliable source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huezwe have Fignon @41:50 and Delgado @42:15 in 1989 and LeMond and Hinault @48:00 in 86, Herrera in down @41:50 in 1987 but this is all from Wikipedia so take it as you will

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

The 86 ascent was incredibly slow, Wikipedia says 48 minutes for Lemond and Hinault. Didn't they ride away earlier on the stage though?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Dr. Morris was a pioneer in a totally different type of allergy treatment. The cortisone thing is really just another red herring.

Brilliant argument. Einstein pioneered relativity theory. Therefore he was no longer capable of solving basic physics equations.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

From a very unreliable source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huezwe have Fignon @41:50 and Delgado @42:15 in 1989 and LeMond and Hinault @48:00 in 86, Herrera in down @41:50 in 1987 but this is all from Wikipedia so take it as you will

According to the race results, Delgado and Fignon finished on the same time, 1:09 behind stage winner Gert-Jan Theunisse. They started the climb together with Lemond, who lost 1:19 to Fignon.

Image link as pic is too tall for this forum.

Shows the top 5 riders ascent times for each year AdH was ridden, and if the time was in top 200 (actually top 215 by 2015). If times were outside top 200 then ride not shown.

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Alpe%20d%27Huez

 

[popular jams]

Re: Re:

really? where?

epo and hgh spread like wildfire viz. became easily purchasable from the late 80s/early 90s onwards.
that's not really up for discussion (except for details wrt first-usage, etc.) and it obviously changed the landscape.

according to some, the real gamechanger was the combination of epo and hgh, one apparently reinforcing the other.

Interesting point on the synergistic effects of EPO & HGH. I had heard riders say the same thing. For example, Riis said he used only cortisone before 93 when he then combined the EPO-HGH stack...and suddenly became one of the best climbers in the peloton. Same stack with LA & Pantani...and no need to reiterate their phenomenal climbing ability. Was the EPO-HGH stack generally widespread during the 90s? Was this something Concini & Ferrari had worked out in the lab?

OTOH, EPO by itself appears to produce extraordinary results in endurance performance. For example, the Thomsen et al. EPO study with cyclists showed for some test subjects a ~12% increase in VO2max, ~13% increase in wattage and improved time to exhaustion by ~54% (Eur J Appl Physiol /2007). And that was with only about a ~20% increase in Hct levels. I also seen studies with distance runners cutting an average of 33 seconds from their 3000m time...incredible.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17668232

Bunk study. It doesn't say anything about LeMond being a forerunner with EPO or his years of cocaine abuse which began during his racing days.

 

[Nomad]

A question on LeMond: What was his fastest time up Alpe d'Huez? (I believe he rode it in all three of his Tour winning years).

AdH was only a summit finish in his 1989 TdF win. It wasn't ridden in 1986 or 1990.

In 1989 he was 1:19 slower than Delgado and Fignon on AdH on Stage 17 and conceded the yellow to Fignon.
Lemond's AdH ascent time was 43:34

You've lost me on this one: From the Wikipedia sites, it's showing ADH in the 86 Tour stage 18: Bancon to Alpe d'Huez (Hinault). Wasn't this the iconic battle to the summit between Hinault & LeMond?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/8648055/Tour-de-France-Bernard-Hinault-and-Greg-LeMonds-Alpe-dHuez-duel-was-the-highlight-of-greatest-ever-Tour.html

And the 1990 Tour is showing stage 11: Saint-Gervais to Alpe d'Huez (Bugno):

https://youtu.be/l8ki0bfHJPg:

However, I'm not finding any ascent times for either Hinault, Bugno or LeMond in 86 or 90.

My bad, you're right. They did ride in those years as well.

However I have no ascent time data for those other two years. The 89 ascent times for Delgado and Fignon appeared in a top 200 list a couple of years ago so we can reasonably assume either the 86 and 90 ascent times were slower and hence outside the then top 200 or it was not possible to ascertain the ascent times. I suspect the former since the top 200 did contain Breu's time from 1982, and Herrera, Figon and Delgado's times from 1987.

It looks like LeMond's fastest time would be the 43:34 you provided from 89. That's almost 2 1/2 minutes slower than the current slowest time on top 100 all-time list (Escartin @ 41:07 set in 97 during the height of the EPO epidemic). LeMond's time is also a whopping 6 1/2 mins behind Riis' fastest in 95 (38:06). Even Riis' 2nd fastest time set in 97 (39:21), when the 50% Hct limit was implemented is still 5 mins better. Interestingly, Fignon had a more impressive time of 41:50 in 89, but still outside the top 100.

So, for this thread, my point is if Lemond, or others in the 80s, were involved with 02-vector doping, why aren't we seeing faster ascent times from him and other riders? Times more compatible with some of the EPO doped times of Riis, Pantani, Zulle, etc....all riders with top 10 times. Surely LeMond and the other great ones of the 80s were as talented as any of these, and they all could have used unlimited amounts of EPO or blood doped their baseline Hct to as high as they wanted to (a la Riis). Even Fignon, using stimulants, couldn't manage to ride a time fastest enough to equal those of EPO doped times in the 90s. He admits to using amphetamines (and tested positive) during his career, but says he never used oxygen-vector doping (any evidence to refute that?). He, like LeMond, faded badly after 91 when EPO was becoming more prevelant, and has said he was disgusted with the idea of using EPO and wanted no part of it.

 

[sniper]

Surely LeMond and the other great ones of the 80s were as talented as any of these,

definitely.

and they all could have used unlimited amounts of EPO

in the 80s? Not really. That's for the early/mid nineties. (First-usage is a different question)

or blood doped their baseline Hct to as high as they wanted to (a la Riis).

certainly not as easily as with EPO.

 

[sniper]

[Fignon] has said he was disgusted with the idea of using EPO and wanted no part of it

I'd love to hear Lemond say that and at the same time explain why he invested in Weisel's Montgomery Securities.

He, like LeMond, faded badly after 91 when EPO was becoming more prevelant

Again, Lemond couldn't finish races anymore because his body just couldn't cope anymore. It had nothing to do with other ridders taking EPO. Hampsten, allegedly clean, had his best Tour de France ever in 1992.

As an interesting aside, Hampsten was coached by Max Testa, the same guy who said Lemond had simply used too much drugs during his career.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

really? where?

epo and hgh spread like wildfire viz. became easily purchasable from the late 80s/early 90s onwards.
that's not really up for discussion (except for details wrt first-usage, etc.) and it obviously changed the landscape.

according to some, the real gamechanger was the combination of epo and hgh, one apparently reinforcing the other.

Interesting point on the synergistic effects of EPO & HGH. I had heard riders say the same thing. For example, Riis said he used only cortisone before 93 when he then combined the EPO-HGH stack...and suddenly became one of the best climbers in the peloton. Same stack with LA & Pantani...and no need to reiterate their phenomenal climbing ability. Was the EPO-HGH stack generally widespread during the 90s? Was this something Concini & Ferrari had worked out in the lab?

OTOH, EPO by itself appears to produce extraordinary results in endurance performance. For example, the Thomsen et al. EPO study with cyclists showed for some test subjects a ~12% increase in VO2max, ~13% increase in wattage and improved time to exhaustion by ~54% (Eur J Appl Physiol /2007). And that was with only about a ~20% increase in Hct levels. I also seen studies with distance runners cutting an average of 33 seconds from their 3000m time...incredible.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17668232

Bunk study. It doesn't say anything about LeMond being a forerunner with EPO or his years of cocaine abuse which began during his racing days.

I don’t believe the study was designed with the purpose of determining whether or not "LeMond being a forerunner with EPO." LOL.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

Surely LeMond and the other great ones of the 80s were as talented as any of these,

definitely.

and they all could have used unlimited amounts of EPO

in the 80s? Not really. That's for the early/mid nineties. (First-usage is a different question)

or blood doped their baseline Hct to as high as they wanted to (a la Riis).

certainly not as easily as with EPO.

No rebuttal here...you have some interesting information that I was unaware of. My main thought on this was the explosive climbing times seen in the 90s, and the extraordinary transformation of some riders with no climbing ability/GT potential who became overnight sensations. None of this existed in earlier eras, and obviously the common denominator was the widespread & liberal use of EPO in the 90s.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

[Fignon] has said he was disgusted with the idea of using EPO and wanted no part of it

I'd love to hear Lemond say that and at the same time explain why he invested in Weisel's Montgomery Securities.

He, like LeMond, faded badly after 91 when EPO was becoming more prevelant

Again, Lemond couldn't finish races anymore because his body just couldn't cope anymore. It had nothing to do with other ridders taking EPO. Hampsten, allegedly clean, had his best Tour de France ever in 1992.

As an interesting aside, Hampsten was coached by Max Testa, the same guy who said Lemond had simply used too much drugs during his career.

Good point on Hampsten on his 92 Tour.