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Lemond's body of evidence

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Sep 25, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
The two cases regarded very different contracts so just comparing Dollar amounts from settlement is a red herring. <snip>.
MacRoadie said:
Ok, I'll bite. The SCA "award" was <snip>
guys i appreciate your efforts at details but the issue here was not the analytical-legal comparison of the merits and the details of lemond's settlement with trek vs. armstrong's settlement with sca (it was the usual, expected bait, red herring from a proven experienced troll chrisE) but whether the lemond vs. trek settlement was a 'win' compared to texas apologists calling his settlement with sca a 'win'.

quickstepper expanded great deal of energy refuting the swordsman’s term ‘lemond’s win’ was really a settlement. then, i came along and said some legal outcomes termed by texas as his 'wins' were actually legal settlement if one strictly followed the logic set out by quickstepper regarding gerg’s case against trek. i challenged those uttering the settlement word now to 'engaging their brain' as demanded by chrisE regarding the past cases. then the known trolll chrisE challenges everyone to compare the merits and detail of the two cases ('as proposed by python'), which even to an uneducated folk is an obvious red herring given the well known confidentiality still surrounding lemond’s vs trek settlement.

once again we have a known troll with multiple sock puppets able to sidetrack a thread supposedly because his landsman and idol is in trouble.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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ChrisE said:
And that is fair enough as well. Thanks for the civil post. Funny this all evolved from somebody earlier saying GL "won" his lawsuit. :)

I also respect GL's willingness to publicly take anti-doping stances. I just disagree with his methods at times, and do not totally agree he was clean during his career and I also find fault with his evolving version of events in the latter part of his career. I also think he has some sour grapes...if LA wasn't American or had won 2 TdF's he wouldn't be so ****ed IMO. I think his fixation on LA backgrounds the PED use of the rest of the peloton. LA was only a part of the machine IMO.

Most of all I don't care for the uncritical passes he gets in this forum.

But, those opinions of mine do not dilute the fact that I think he is obviously right thinking LA is linked to PED use. You don't have to care for the method to respect the end results. Maybe that is too much nuance for some but my head is clear.
all this carp about lemond being jealous, his sour grapes etc is irrelevant to the argument staged here - whether his settlement with trek was a win compared to armstrong settlement wit sca was a win - it only proves that you are a closet fanboy who uses distortion and trickery to prove otherwise.
 

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ChrisE said:
What's funny, my friend, is the SCA "settlement" meant SCA paid the $5 million, plus another $2 million I think for LA's attorney fees or whatever costs he incurred.

What did GL sue Trek for? It was far north of the $300k Trek paid the charity.

So, LA got what he wanted and then some. GL got much less than he wanted, and of course that is after all the talk from the GL fanboys on the forum about how he would never settle due to principal, his fighting spirit, and other such GL nutsucking BS:rolleyes:

Split hairs over the word "settlement" by bringing out whatever example you want. What is a fact, and not an opinion, is that GL did not "win" the Trek lawsuit which is why this thread has taken this turn. Except of course, in the minds of GL fanboys he did. :D

You call it the SCA "settlement", meaning no "win",right?....... because I remember someone saying:

"It's over. We won. They lost. I was yet again completely vindicated."

Perhaps you should let Lance and Public Strategies know that their statement was not based on your "facts".

___
Also - to the highlighted above - who actually said that?
I remember it being discussed at the time - and it was obvious that Trek would wish to settle and that it was likely that LeMond would settle.

I remember that some Lance fans thought LeMond would continue - as he was 'bitter' & 'jealous' and was trying to take down Lance.

But as one might say - YKMV
 
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MacRoadie said:
Ah, the "victim of his times and circumstances" rationale raises it's head above the parapet...

I'm not defending Lance at all and I don't think Lance was a victim of anything other than his own desire to win at any cost.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
You call it the SCA "settlement", meaning no "win",right?....... because I remember someone saying:

"It's over. We won. They lost. I was yet again completely vindicated."

Perhaps you should let Lance and Public Strategies know that their statement was not based on your "facts".

___
Also - to the highlighted above - who actually said that?
I remember it being discussed at the time - and it was obvious that Trek would wish to settle and that it was likely that LeMond would settle.

I remember that some Lance fans thought LeMond would continue - as he was 'bitter' & 'jealous' and was trying to take down Lance.

But as one might say - YKMV

OK doc. I didn't know I was having to defend what LA or his PR flaks said about the SCA lawsuit. I was responding to python who wrote:

the funny thing is that i recall the sunday times and the sca settlements were called texas wins and none of the current legal nitpickers or advocates of 'engaging your brain' and being truthful' were heard

He was criticizing me because I was pointing out that GL didn't "win" the Trek lawsuit. It was settled. For some reason he brings up SCA which makes him look foolish, by pointing out I didn't criticize LA for saying what he said after SCA. :rolleyes:

I was pointing out how a poster was factually wrong. Nothing more. His trolling technique resorted to ad hominems and diversions.

TBH, I'm sure I didn't give a rats a$$ about what LA said either then or now. You guys are the ones that let him get you all worked up, not me. Nobody controls my emotions like Lance Armstrong controls some of the people in this forum.

Moving on, was SCA a "settlement"? I really don't know what it would be called legally but if it wasn't then that makes python look even more foolish comparing that apple to GL's orange.

Is it a "win" if SCA was made to pay the $5 million plus damages? You tell me. If it is not then you can go off on LA. Either way, I don't really care. I will stick to arguing with GL fanboys on CN forums who lie about settlements vs "win". Have fun. :cool:

Finally, I know you are not actually saying the mood in the forum was that GL was gonna fight to the finish??? I expect revisionist history by the likes of python, but not you. You can do better than this.

Right about now you are looking for selective past posts by various "LA Fanboys" & "Public Strategy Trolls" to prove your point. Have fun with that as well. I don't have the time nor the inclination to do the same thing to rebut you. My memory is clear.
 

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ChrisE said:
OK doc. I didn't know I was having to defend what LA or his PR flaks said about the SCA lawsuit. I was responding to python who wrote:



He was criticizing me because I was pointing out that GL didn't "win" the Trek lawsuit. It was settled. For some reason he brings up SCA which makes him look foolish, by pointing out I didn't criticize LA for saying what he said after SCA. :rolleyes:

I was pointing out how a poster was factually wrong. Nothing more. His trolling technique resorted to ad hominems and diversions.

TBH, I'm sure I didn't give a rats a$$ about what LA said either then or now. You guys are the ones that let him get you all worked up, not me. Nobody controls my emotions like Lance Armstrong controls some of the people in this forum.

Moving on, was SCA a "settlement"? I really don't know what it would be called legally but if it wasn't then that makes python look even more foolish comparing that apple to GL's orange.

Is it a "win" if SCA was made to pay the $5 million plus damages? You tell me. If it is not then you can go off on LA. Either way, I don't really care. I will stick to arguing with GL fanboys on CN forums who lie about settlements vs "win". Have fun. :cool:

Finally, I know you are not actually saying the mood in the forum was that GL was gonna fight to the finish??? I expect revisionist history by the likes of python, but not you. You can do better than this.

Right about now you are looking for selective past posts by various "LA Fanboys" & "Public Strategy Trolls" to prove your point. Have fun with that as well. I don't have the time nor the inclination to do the same thing to rebut you. My memory is clear.
...you don't have the time or inclination? Yet have the time to write a very long post with little content?

If your "memory is clear" than you should know exactly what you are looking for and where to look....

Save your poor keyboard and use your mouse - it would be much quicker.
 
Jul 23, 2010
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python said:
the funny thing is that i recall the sunday times and the sca settlements were called texas wins and none of the current legal nitpickers or advocates of 'engaging your brain' and being truthful' were heard.

Since I was the person who objected to the term "win" in describing what was a civil settlement, I would have done the same with respect to any other settlement as well, including the settlement in the SCA v. Tailwinds lawsuit. Neither was a "win". It's not uncommon for the parties who have settled to later issue public statements trying to characterize a settlement as a "win" when in reality neither side actually achieves all that they might have desired had the case gone to trial. I suppose a "win" in the context of a settlement is a relative term. In Lemond's situaiton, I don't know how anyone could characterize a settlement which results in a payment to a third party charity as a true "win". The plaintiff doesn't really get the benefit of the monetary consideration (except very indirectly), and unless there were other elements of consideration (e.g., did Trek pay Lemond's legal fees and/or costs? I don't know), it would be hard to claim a "win".

I would have said the same thing here at CN about the SCA settlement, but I wasn't a member of the forum back then.

Substantively though, there's probably at least a bit of a difference from what I know about the two settlements. In the Trek v. Lemond settlement, the money was paid by Trek to a charity. I am not aware of what, if anything, Lemond personally received. In the SCA v. Tailwinds settlement though, while the issues of liability and damages were not adjudicated, from what I understand, SCA agreed to and did actually pay the full amount due under the contracts and they also paid interest on the principal sum, as well as all of Tailwind's and Armstrong's legal fees. So in that sense, while it may not have represented a payment of the full amount of consequential and/or punitive damages that were sought or which the arbitrators might have awarded (and thus may have been a compromised sum), I can understand why Tailwinds and Armstrong would have characterized it as some sort of a victory.

Again, all of this is relative, and depends on the context. What I objected to though was characterizing the settlement as a "win" when it was not, but instead represents the result of a compromise in which neither side receives all that they might have gotten (or suffered) had the case gone to trial and judgment.

Lastly, while I have considered myself a cycling fan for well over 30 years, I have to say that like most fans who merely ride, occassionally race (I haven't done that for about 15 years) and follow the sport by reading magazines, websites and watching races (including the Tour), I had never heard of "Public Strategies" until I joined CN's forums and read about it here. I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of those who don't frequent CN's forums also probably couldn't tell you the names of any PR firms who represent anyone in cycling.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
...you don't have the time or inclination? Yet have the time to write a very long post with little content?

If your "memory is clear" than you should know exactly what you are looking for and where to look....

Save your poor keyboard and use your mouse - it would be much quicker.

No I don't care to do that for the reasons I state. I seriously don't care if anybody believes me or not. If anybody is curious about the hardon the GL fanboys had when they thought he was gonna take Trek to the line then they can do their own searches.

You have no rebuttal to what I say because you know I am right. It is ok to admit that you and your posse are wrong sometimes, doc. It happens to the best of us. :D

I'm going flounder gigging on the west end of Galveston right now, for real. I'm tired of mullet fishing on CN forums. :D

Be back in about 8 hours doc, take care.
 
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QuickStepper said:
No he didn't. Trek and Lemond settled the case. People settle cases every day for all kinds of reasons. Liability may have been uncertain but Trek looked at the potential risks of going to trial vs. the certain costs of continuing the litigation. Trek was a defendant and had no upside-- even if they took the case to trial, the best they'd ever do is a verdict of no liability, but they had no possible recovery. So they probably looked at it as a pure business proposition, i.e., how much would they spend continuing with the litigation, vs. how little did they have to pay to essentially buy an insurance policy that they would never be litigating Lemond's claims and would put an end to the suit. This is an analysis that litigants in civil suits undertake all the time, and it's also why, even though liability is disputed, defendants in civil suits opt to settle out more often than they elect to go to trial. The costs of modern civil litigation are just overwhelming, and the cost to a company not only in legal fees, but also in the numbers of people who are kept away from their real tasks at work having to attend depositions, look for documents, answer voluminous interrogatories, attend pre-trial hearings and motions, attend trial, etc., can be daunting and in some cases cripple a company. Trek is big in terms of bicycle manufacturers, but I'm willing to bet that their management structure isn't like looking at GM or any Fortune 100 company, and they were looking at years of continued expense and time consumption with zero upside for the company. The figure that I've heard is that they agreed to pay $300K to a charity of Lemond's choosing (at least that's what I recall). While that may be a moral victory for Lemond, it's not a "win" and it also isn't a loss for Trek (actually it was a pretty smart PR move, so the donation is deductible, makes them look like good citizens, etc.).

I don't think anyone "won". Most civil business disputes don't go to trial, and most don't result in "wins" or "losses"...just a lot of money spent on legal fees with entirely uncertain outcomes. Settling is just a way to regain at least a small amount of certainty to end the process. Just MHO.

Occam's Razor: maybe Trek knew they would lose because of the evidence available. Still flying the yellow flag I see.

Past that, you don't know the full terms because they were not published. Just because they announced the donation to charity does not mean there were not other concessions. Maybe Trek added in the PR stuff about charities as the part that could be published as gaining some measure of concession for giving him money for screwing him and not making him go through a trial to do so? But really, we are all just guessing, right? Nice try, but that sure is a lot of conjecture for a "facts" guy.
 
QuickStepper said:
In Lemond's situaiton, I don't know how anyone could characterize a settlement which results in a payment to a third party charity as a true "win". The plaintiff doesn't really get the benefit of the monetary consideration (except very indirectly), and unless there were other elements of consideration (e.g., did Trek pay Lemond's legal fees and/or costs? I don't know), it would be hard to claim a "win".

I'm not sure whow the recipient of the check has any bearing on the matter. Trek wrote a check. They have $200,000 less than they did before the settlement. Lemond may or may not have more, but he certainly lost nothing under the terms of the settlement. Plus, a charity he holds very dear to his heart is $200K richer.

Do we know if Trek would have donated that money to that specific charity in the absence of the settlement? It's not too far-fetched that Lemond directed the money be paid to the charity as a final eff you: "It's not about the money, but the principle. Go ahead and give the money to a charity of my choosing".


Do we know if the money was offered to Lemond and he then directed it to be paid to the charity of his choice?

Do we know if Lemond "enjoyed" or derived any benefit other than monitarily from the donation (peace of mind, success of a charity dear to his heart)?

In a civil rights lawsuit, for example, where a plaintiff sues for the "right" to attend a learning institution or to join a country club, is there a monetary benefit? The golf plays the same elsewhere, and the plintiff may have "won" the right to play even more for that game of golf.

At the end of the day, semantics aside, as a result of the settlement, Lemond enjoyed a greater benefit than Trek did. Win, lose or draw.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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ChrisE said:
I was responding to python ...He was criticizing me.... which makes him look foolish... His trolling technique... resorted to ad hominems and diversions...
to repeat some of what was stated above..


you, chrisE, were banned, warned, multiple times for insulting the forum members (look up the two most resent complaints by 2 forum members in the feedback i have never heard of). so whining about the attacks that only factually exposed your fanboism and perverted logic(and sock puppets-;)) is ..as was communicated to you by a mod, obnoxious..

TBH, I'm sure I didn't give a rats a$$ about what LA said either then or now.
this is a lie. you are a closet fanboy attempting to lie your way out. why would you need so many sock puppets (all of whom where engaged in perpetuating the myth) ? in


You guys are the ones that let him get you all worked up, not me. Nobody controls my emotions like Lance Armstrong controls some of the people in this forum.
another lie. you consistently post ONLY in the doping threads about armstrong and you consistently get the same topics about lemond raised and answered, raised and answers...

Moving on, was SCA a "settlement"? I really don't know what it would be called legally but if it wasn't then that makes python look even more foolish comparing that apple to GL's orange
it makes you look everything i mentioned before - stupid (for thinking the mods wont catch up with your sock puppets), dishonest (for obviously lying about your sock puppets, obnoxious ( for hoping your game hasn't been exposed), arrogant (for disregarding the collective intelligence).

and all that, because a fanboy from the home state is upset about his boy being on a grill.
 
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MacRoadie said:
Lemond Complaint


Scroll down to "Prayer for Relief" (page 33 of the complaint) and tell me how much he sued them for, in monetary value. While you're at it, has a full disclosure ever been made with regard to what Lemond actually received from Trek?

No, no it hasn't, but you have one attorney here using his attorneyness to try and make it seem like he knows it was just a donation to charity. He explains precisely how and why the case was settled having never read a page of the settlement, nor taken part in any of the process on either side. What a hot water bottle.
 
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MacRoadie said:
Do we know if Trek would have donated that money to that specific charity in the absence of the settlement? It's not too far-fetched that Lemond directed the money be paid to the charity as a final eff you..

I would assume Lemond got to pick the charity. 1in6.org is a website devoted to education and support for men who were victims of sexual abuse as children. I'm willing to bet that Trek didn't just happen to pick that charitable cause at random. This sort of payment method in a settlement isn't all that unusual. I've had clients who have done the same sort of thing, i.e., the defendant makes a donation to the charity of the plaintiff's choice. It's not something you see every day, but I've been involved in cases where it's been done.


MacRoadie said:
Do we know if the money was offered to Lemond and he then directed it to be paid to the charity of his choice?

No, I don't think we know that. I've not read any published reports about that one way or the other.

MacRoadie said:
Do we know if Lemond "enjoyed" or derived any benefit other than monitarily from the donation (peace of mind, success of a charity dear to his heart)?

I don't recall Lemond ever making any published statements about that one way or the other. I assume he received some amount of pleasure and pride though in benefitting a cause in which he has some interest in promoting, in this case, recovery from a history of childhood sexual abuse, something he's spoken about recently.

MacRoadie said:
At the end of the day, semantics aside, as a result of the settlement, Lemond enjoyed a greater benefit than Trek did. Win, lose or draw.

Maybe, maybe not. As I said in my original post, and as MacRoadie has alluded to here as well, the costs of civil litigation, particularly in a complex business suit in which allegations of attempting to prove or defend against claims of lost profits as a result of allegations that Trek either didn't exert its best efforts to promote Lemond's line of bikes, or worse, that there was some sort of conspiracy or collusion between Trek and Armstrong to tortiously interfere with Lemond's contracts or his prospective economic advantages, is a very, very costly and time-consuming enterprise, which can take on a life of its own. Document production and collection is expensive; forensic accounting and expert costs can be astronomical, and legal fees can break a company, even one the size of Trek. Lemond I believe was using the same attorneys in that case that he was rumored to have now allowed to represent Landis (e.g., Wilson, Sonsini, et.al.) as well as his long time attorneys, and I don't know who Trek's lawyers were, but you can bet that both sides were using very high-priced legal talent, and that each side was looking at multiple millions of dollars in legal fees by the time the case went to trial. So a settlement which results in either side saving substantial fees and costs actually is a monetary benefit, and a settlement, because it usually represents a final resolution and disposition of a dispute, with each side signing releases and waivers of claims, works as a sort of "insurance policy" if you will, insuring that neither side will have to revisit the matters encompassed in and surrrounding the dispute again once the releases are signed.

Do we know the details of any of these settlements, really, and what else may have been received by a party? I don't. But I also don't think it's fair to describe any case that settles, at least not objectively speaking, as a "win" for anyone. There are so many economic and personal reasons that go into why parties settle cases that it's literally impossible to say which side "won" or "lost" when a case is settled. Either side may want to characterize it to their own benefit and advantage, and that happens all the time. Witness what's happening here in this thread. Everyone wants to claim that each other's favorite's "won" while the other side, because they paid something, "lost". And that's just silly, on so many levels.

BTW. I never said I knew why either the SCA vs. Tailwinds nor Lemond vs. Trek cases settled. I'm not an insider, nor do I claim to be. I merely object to the use of the term "win" when describing a settlement and that applies to both cases. All we know for sure is that the parties to each case, like thousands of litigants every day in other cases do, decided that settling made more sense than continuing to litigate. As I said, I would say the same thing about any settlement, no matter who was involved. As for motivations, I was not purporting to describe what the parties in either of these cases actually considered or negotiated, but merely describing the reasons why litigants settle cases, and sometimes its for reasons that don't immediately spring to mind, including the simple fact of the outrageous cost of litigation.
 
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QuickStepper said:
Everyone wants to claim that each other's favorite's "won" while the other side, because they paid something, "lost". And that's just silly, on so many levels.

So does pretending to know why a case was settled, but that didn't stop you from doing it..:rolleyes:

Fact: You have no idea why or how the case was settled. You just know that when it comes to anything that threatens Armstrong, you will subtly but surely try to cast doubt upon the threat.
 

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Allen Keys said:
So is anyone going to clear up where this story about the 70,000 page documents came from, because it's not on LeMond's twitter.

It was there earlier - butis gone now:confused:

The tweet was actually posted 2 days ago - which is why i thought it strange it was highlighted today.

But here is an ABC/ESPN report about the documents:
Handfelt said 70,000 pages of records were sent to investigators in recent weeks.
 
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QuickStepper said:
Since I was the person who objected to the term "win" in describing what was a civil settlement, I would have done the same with respect to any other settlement as well, including the settlement in the SCA v. Tailwinds lawsuit. Neither was a "win".<snip>
Ok. thanks for the response (i read your entire post) but pls allow me to address the part above as it provides keys to the thread's direction and to the absolute falsity of chrisE's argument

the argument a known troll and the owner of multiple suck puppets chrisE advanced after i challenged the 'win' term was - 'how can you compare the sca case to trek case when it was obvious (to chrisE's fanboy mind) that some dollars exchanging hand were...' blah, blah, blah....

we have a case when chrisE is trying to extend your generic legal assessment of the settlement term (in legal sense) to his, fanboy evaluation of the events and thus throwing a ****e load of accusations at lemond and his fans.

thankfully, you are above the cheap tactics chrisE employed.
 
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VeloCity said:
One of the two is going down for being a cheater and a liar, and it ain't LeMond.

...well we have admittedly seen a great deal of tar stick to one side of that dime...but please the other side is not really so shiny and clean...

...in point of fact Mr LeMond is a cheat ( granted it is in the biblical sense but we are talking cheaters are we not )( see...Greg LeMond vs. The World...Men's Journal ...which incidently if you read will show our boy is pretty "damaged goods"...he has had a very sad life it seems...really too bad because he was an amazing talent... )

...and there has been a fair bit of "bending of truth" in Mr LeMond's career...the accusations levelled at Moreno Argentin immediately after the 85 World Championships are a good example ( though to be fair he did later recant the accusations but this after maintaining them for the better part of a year )...and of course there is the changing story surrounding his leaving the sport...I believe it went from busted mitochondria to the "I couldn't compete because everyone but me was using drugs" schtick ( which is, come to think of it, kinda a variation of the "they are all against me" theme that keeps cropping up thru-out his career)...

...and we really won't go into detail into his wretched performances as a team-mate but his work at Goodwood in 82 is worth a look to get a flavour of the man...

Cheers

blutto
 
blutto said:
...well we have admittedly seen a great deal of tar stick to one side of that dime...but please the other side is not really so shiny and clean...

...in point of fact Mr LeMond is a cheat ( granted it is in the biblical sense but we are talking cheaters are we not )( see...Greg LeMond vs. The World...Men's Journal ...which incidently if you read will show our boy is pretty "damaged goods"...he has had a very sad life it seems...really too bad because he was an amazing talent... )

...and there has been a fair bit of "bending of truth" in Mr LeMond's career...the accusations levelled at Moreno Argentin immediately after the 85 World Championships are a good example ( though to be fair he did later recant the accusations but this after maintaining them for the better part of a year )...and of course there is the changing story surrounding his leaving the sport...I believe it went from busted mitochondria to the "I couldn't compete because everyone but me was using drugs" schtick ( which is, come to think of it, kinda a variation of the "they are all against me" theme that keeps cropping up thru-out his career)...

...and we really won't go into detail into his wretched performances as a team-mate but his work at Goodwood in 82 is worth a look to get a flavour of the man...

Cheers

blutto

Ah yes, "he has had a very sad life it seems...really too bad" but that doesn't stop you from taking scumbag cheap shots at his personal life now does it?
 

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