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Lemond's body of evidence

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Some amusing posts, and a few informative ones, but you guys need to cut this little insults and backbiting or I'll be handing out infractions and close the thread. I'm not so sure there's anything left to be said about the topic anyway.

The original discussion was about the 70,000 pages LeMond allegedly turned over to federal investigators. Does anyone have any comments left?
 
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flicker said:
Doped As amatuer. After he left the states I quit watching cycling. I read about his tour victories in Sports illustrated. I was very happy for him.

Not a horrible person Greg. I do think he is unhappy and inflicts that on Continental Pro cccycling. His main adverseries are Lance/Trek Contador Floyd.

So no doubt these guys who know this will be letting Novitsky know that LeMond doped as an amateur.:rolleyes:

So LeMond doped as an amateur in the oh so super fast pelotons in the states but didn't in the slow european ones. Strange, Stephen Swart found it the other way around.
 

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So, how long does it take to read 70,000 pages of testimony?

About 4 years at 50 pages a day. A few days off for Holidays etc.
 

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Alpe d'Huez said:
Some amusing posts, and a few informative ones, but you guys need to cut this little insults and backbiting or I'll be handing out infractions and close the thread. I'm not so sure there's anything left to be said about the topic anyway.

The original discussion was about the 70,000 pages LeMond allegedly turned over to federal investigators. Does anyone have any comments left?

The 70,000 pages of documents would also include some from the SCA case - and as this case started around Rock Racing, could have some documentation from the USADA case against Floyd.

I don't see what closing the thread achieves, if posters are misbehaving, then they need individual warnings. Closing the thread punishes everyone - and that appears to be the goal of some here.
 

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Benotti69 said:
So no doubt these guys who know this will be letting Novitsky know that LeMond doped as an amateur.:rolleyes:

So LeMond doped as an amateur in the oh so super fast pelotons in the states but didn't in the slow european ones. Strange, Stephen Swart found it the other way around.

I have never disliked LeMond about his accusations. He has just bummed many of us out with his actions, such as chasing down a teamate after the teamate set up LeMonds European carreer.
 
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Kennf1 said:
The van conversation:

Rider1: "So what was Lemond's deal riding off the front on the first lap?"

Rider2: "I know, right? Like the kid doesn't have enough wins this season, he's gotta push the pace right from the gun?"

Rider3: "Dude, did you see him when he lapped us the third time? I swear he was pointing at his junior restricted gears and laughing at us."

Rider1: "The guy's a tool. I'm hungry. Put on some REO Speedwagon."

Rider2: "I used to be a big fan. I'm rooting for Jockstrap Boyer from now on. He'll win the Worlds or Tour before Greg does."

...real funny you would mention REO Speedwagon because your patron saint mentioned them in an interview as one of his faves and real loud too( and some real foul metal that has thankfully been forgotten )...no, we were more into Mickey Baker, Fess, Tab Smith, Ike Quebec, anything with the Riddim Twins,J.J., Clifton/Red Hots,King Curtis, Meters, The Raybeats, Shakin'Pyramids ( we had some damn fine times in that van..thanks for jogging the memory banks )...and no, there were no World Champions in that van, but there were a few very close misses later on....

Cheers

blutto
 
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flicker said:
I have never disliked LeMond about his accusations. He has just bummed many of us out with his actions, such as chasing down a teamate after the teamate set up LeMonds European carreer.

You know, LeMond was obviously way before my time, but the Velonews article posted earlier does a pretty good job of clarifying that specious claim. And Wilkcockson is hardly a LeMond apologist...

Given how he describes the situation, I'd hardly consider it "chasing down a teammate". If that's the case I've been "chased down by teammates" on several occasions. If you don't get a get that has a chance of sticking, your teammate should attack. That's bike racing.
 

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blutto said:
...real funny you would mention REO Speedwagon because your patron saint mentioned them in an interview as one of his faves and real loud too( and some real foul metal that has thankfully been forgotten )...no, we were more into Mickey Baker, Fess, Tab Smith, Ike Quebec, anything with the Riddim Twins,J.J., Clifton/Red Hots,King Curtis, Meters, The Raybeats, Shakin'Pyramids ( we had some damn fine times in that van..thanks for jogging the memory banks )...and no, there were no World Champions in that van, but there were a few very close misses later on....

Cheers

blutto

So, 'Blutto' care to give us the name of LeMonds 'PR firm' that you alluded to earlier (twice)-if it exists there's no need to be shy about it.

We have mentioned Public Strategies (Hey y'all) here so I can't see why it is any different to expose Greg's 'PR firm'.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
I don't see what closing the thread achieves, if posters are misbehaving, then they need individual warnings. Closing the thread punishes everyone - and that appears to be the goal of some here.
Because maybe one in ten posts here is about the original topic and what LeMond may have included in the 70,000 pages, and what impact that may have.

Nearly all of them are posts pointing fingers at him for doping, having an agenda against Lance, opinions on his personality, baseless accusations, rebuttals and challenges, or other off-topic posts about his life.
 

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Alpe d'Huez said:
Because maybe one in ten posts here is about the original topic and what LeMond may have included in the 70,000 pages, and what impact that may have.

Nearly all of them are posts pointing fingers at him for doping, having an agenda against Lance, opinions on his personality, baseless accusations, rebuttals and challenges, or other off-topic posts about his life.

Then kill the 9 that are Off Topic.

If you kill a thread then you are killing the 1 in 10 that are valid.

I have long thought there is a concerted effort to derail threads by simply making them unreadable - going off topic, long long posts, prepared posts, no use of spelling or grammar.
A person who logs on once a day or every few days is not going to bother reading a thread with 100+ posts.

Zap any OT posts in a thread, issue a general reminder and I believe it will go a long way to changing some habits here.

I will copy this and leave it in the "Closing,locking threads" thread for discussion/debate/ridicule.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Because maybe one in ten posts here is about the original topic and what LeMond may have included in the 70,000 pages, and what impact that may have. . . .

WARNING: WHAT FOLLOWS IS PURE SPECULATION. I am not an insider, have never seen any of the 70,000 pages (assuming that's really how many were produced), haven't read the subpoena duces tecum served on Lemond, and actually know nothing as a fact. Just like the rest of us here.

That said, I would speculate that what was included in the pages of documents produced likely covered the following topics:

1) all the pleadings in the Trek v. Lemond lawsuit (although maybe not since this stuff is a matter of public record);

2) all discovery in that case which was not actually filed with the Court (e.g. deposition transcripts, interrogatories and responses, requests for admissions and responses, and documents produced in response to each side's requests for production, as well as all documents produced by any third parties pursuant to sdt's served on a third party, etc.);

3) all accounting and forensic evidence in the possession of the attorneys at Robins, Kaplan, Miller & Cerisi, LLP pertaining or supporting in any way Lemond's claims that Trek failed to exercise its best efforts in marketing his bikes, as well as any documents Lemond might have gained in discovery regarding the types of sponsorship commitments, including the types and numbers of bikes furnished by Trek to Armstrong's teams (re: the suggested claim that USPS was selling "extra" bikes or used bikes to raise money for a PED program);

4) all records of any public statements made by Lemond or anyone else about Dr. Ferrari, about drug use in the peloton, and about Armstrong and his association with Ferrari (since there were multiple references to these statements in the complaint filed by Lemond);

5) any and all records that Lemond and his counsel had compiled which demonstrated, evidenced or related to any claim by any third person previously published anywhere (e.g., print media, newsapaper, etc) that in any way implicated (a) Armstrong with any use of PED's or blood doping at any time, and/or (b) any other American rider or U.S. team with using, or promoting a systematic program of PED's or blood doping at any time;

6) notes or records of any and all telephone conversations, including any tape recordings, between and among Greg Lemond and any of the following:

a) Armstrong;
b) Burke;
c) any other representative of Armstrong, including Bill Stapleton;
d) any other representative of Trek;
e) David Walsh (including notes or records of any interviews);
f) any other reporter or media representative

7) Any and all copies of any press releases issued or proposed to be issued by Trek and/or Lemond prior to the filing of the lawsuit pertaining in any way to any pressure that Trek allegedly placed on Lemond to make any such statement either softening or withdrawing his prior statements about Armstrong's alleged use of PED's, blood doping, or his association with Ferrari (including any draft press releases or draft statements allegedly prepared by Armstrong's attorneys or representatives proffered by Trek to Lemond as alleged in the complaint).

8) Any documents or records which identify any persons or entities who overheard, knew of, or were otherwise privy to any threats allegedly made by Armstrong, or anyone associated with him to claim that Lemond used PED's or blood doping (again, as alleged in the complaint).

9) any photographic evidence of drug use or blood doping by any professional cyclist in the possession of Lemond.

10) the settlement agreement in the Trek vs. Lemond lawsuit, including any drafts and all written communications and correspondence between the parties' counsel pertaining thereto, including the negotiation of the agreement, as well as records of any and all consideration paid or received by any person, party or entity.

That's just for starters, and only as it would pertain to the lawsuit. If I were the feds, I'd also ask Lemond to produce any and all records he had pertaining to Landis or any other pro cyclist's connections to PED use or blood doping.

Again, this is just my idle speculation and comes from someone who has absolutely zero personal knowledge of the actual contents of the documents or the SDT served on Lemond. But reading the complaint (http://www.trekbikes.com/pdf/media/en/03202008_Lemond.pdf) and from the allegations therein, it's likely that many of these subjects would be referenced in the documents he produced, assuming the SDT was a blanket request for him to produce "all documents" that were connected in any way with that case.

I too wonder why Lemond's Twitter account no longer contains any reference to the volume of documents produced or the subject matters (I never saw the original Twitter statement either, so again, I'm assuming the OP in this thread actually did see it before it was removed). It's would be likely that either Lemond's own counsel advised him to remove it, or that the U.S. Attorneys asked Lemond's attorneys to ask him to remove it from his Twitter page, in order to keep the details of the full scope of the investigation quiet.

I'll say this for the last time: This is pure speculation, but I think it's at least a reasonable approximation of the list of subjects I would be seeking were I the U.S. Attorney issuing the SDT in this instance.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
So, 'Blutto' care to give us the name of LeMonds 'PR firm' that you alluded to earlier (twice)-if it exists there's no need to be shy about it.

We have mentioned Public Strategies (Hey y'all) here so I can't see why it is any different to expose Greg's 'PR firm'.

...I simply asked who they were....as in I'm looking for an answer to a question...is that really so hard to understand?...

Cheers

blutto
 
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Re: the second part of Alpe d'Huez's question, "...and what impact they may have"...let me just add some further TOTAL AND COMPLETE SPECULATION.

As I said previously, I've not seen the settlement agreement in the Lemond v. Trek lawsuit, and I believe that neither has anyone else other than the parties to the suit and their attorneys.

Given the nature of the press release issued jointly by Trek and Lemond at the conclusion of the settlement, I would venture a GUESS that the settlement agreement contains a confidentiality clause.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER THERE IS ACTUALLY SUCH A CLAUSE IN THE LEMOND V. TREK SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, but assuming for the sake of discussion that there is such a clause, the language of that confidentiality provision could be quite important to a U.S. Attorney or to a GJ investigating and looking into whether or not there is evidence to believe that probable cause exists that a crime was committed by someone.

Let me explain it as simply as I can. Many civil lawsuits settle. Many times the parties don't want the details of the settlement to be disclosed, so they agree to confidentiality clauses. In a simple case, this can merely amount to keeping the terms of the settlement itself confidential and only between the parties (e.g., who paid what to whom as consideration for a dismissal and release of claims).

But in cases where parties may overreach, it is not uncommon for such confidentiality clauses to include such things as "no testimony" clauses, or "covenants not to sue" which also contain language that limits a party from cooperating or providing any evidence to any third party for use in any other lawsuits.

Lawyers have to be very careful in drafting such agreements not to cross the line into what would otherwise be considered obstruction of justice, or spoliation of evidence, or placing their clients in a position where, by reason of the contractual provisions in a settlement agreement, they unwittingly become parties to an obstruction of justice or active concealment of a crime. As another example, sometimes such clauses will also include a provision that the other side "turnover" all evidence in their possession which might tend to later incriminate the other party (or some third party who is related or associated with the settling party). Is that tantamount to obstruction of justice? All depends on the circumstances.

Why do I mention this? Well, other than the obvious "impact" that any of the documents produced might have, i.e., they may provide actual evidence or lead to the discovery of other evidence which demonstrates the commission of a crime, e.g., a program of systematic doping at USPS (and again, I am ASSUMING that is the scope of the investigation based on media reports, and solely for the sake of this discussion), it also occurs to me that there may be other inferences that could be drawn from some of the documents IF, for example, the settlement agreement or other documents produced by Lemond contained evidence that either Trek or Armstrong, or some combination thereof, tried to suppress or destroy evidence that might implicate USPS in that activity, or which otherwise would have substantiated some of the statements or claims made by Lemond in the lawsuit.

Just a thought, and maybe a complete red-herring. Robins, Miller, Kaplan, & Cerisi is a national law firm, and their lawyers are really smart, so I'm assuming they would NOT have been silly or sloppy enough to have engaged in that sort of thing. But it's possible. And it's also possible that Lemond has records either from Trek's attorneys (I have no idea who that was in that case) or from the principals on the other side of the case, where such requests may have been made. Who knows. Not me, that's for sure, but as a pure hypothetical, it does come to mind when thinking about what the impact might be in producing a large volume of documents about a civil case which also might have implications in a criminal investigation.

Lastly, I have no doubt that my last two postings will draw some fire from someone here who will complain that I'm a hypocrite or worse for engaging in the same sort of speculaton that I've complained about others engaging in. To which I will say in advance: So what. Life's not fair. Deal with it.
 
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Finally, here's a last little bit of TOTAL AND UTTER SPECULATION.

It is also likely that the prosecutors prior to serving the SDT on Lemond already had an idea of what documents Lemond possessed (and it's also likely that the prosecutors were already in touch with Lemond's attorneys before they served the SDT). The fact that Lemond produced that many documents may in fact be irrelevant, and if he or his attorneys did produce that much material, it's likely that most of it will never see the light of day. But included within that mass of stuff I'm willing to bet were included specific things that the prosecutors already knew about and were expecting to be produced.

Again, speculation, pure and simple. Yes, I'm a hypocrite. Too bad. Deal with it.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
So, 'Blutto' care to give us the name of LeMonds 'PR firm' that you alluded to earlier (twice)-if it exists there's no need to be shy about it.

We have mentioned Public Strategies (Hey y'all) here so I can't see why it is any different to expose Greg's 'PR firm'.

...very sorry to run off topic ( I should have included this in my previous post )...are you a freeper?...just curious

Cheers

blutto
 

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blutto said:
...I simply asked who they were....as in I'm looking for an answer to a question...is that really so hard to understand?...

Cheers

blutto
Actually it is - why would you even assume that he has a PR firm?

Lets face it - if he had, they're pretty awful.
They would have been sitting on their hands until just before the Trek case. How many interviews has he given in the last 10 years?
blutto said:
...very sorry to run off topic ( I should have included this in my previous post )...are you a freeper?...just curious

Cheers

blutto

I had to check and see what a 'freeper' was - I found some stuff on 'urban dictionary', and wiki.

Simple answer is no - I am not even American so....
 
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QuickStepper said:
Finally, here's a last little bit of TOTAL AND UTTER SPECULATION.

It is also likely that the prosecutors prior to serving the SDT on Lemond already had an idea of what documents Lemond possessed (and it's also likely that the prosecutors were already in touch with Lemond's attorneys before they served the SDT). The fact that Lemond produced that many documents may in fact be irrelevant, and if he or his attorneys did produce that much material, it's likely that most of it will never see the light of day. But included within that mass of stuff I'm willing to bet were included specific things that the prosecutors already knew about and were expecting to be produced.

Again, speculation, pure and simple. Yes, I'm a hypocrite. Too bad. Deal with it.

We're all hypocrites.

As for the posts you have just made, thank you for the information. It was enlightening and regardless of whether or not you had to speculate, it shed light on the subject. This is wholly and completely different than surmising what you did about the lawsuit involving Lemond and Trek.

Thank you for the speculation, sincerely.
 
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TopCarbon said:
whenever I see the thread title, I think"Lemonds body as evidence" like he has offered his body as proof.

....that in a real ****-eyed way is what it really boils down to doesn't it....you either believe his 95VOS/Max body that never ever used drugs or you don't...same goes goes for Lance, so as result of that believe/nonbelieve kind of Rubicon moment, no-one here, including me, believes him...

Cheers

blutto
 
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blutto said:
....that in a real ****-eyed way is what it really boils down to doesn't it....you either believe his 95VOS/Max body that never ever used drugs or you don't...same goes goes for Lance, so as result of that believe/nonbelieve kind of Rubicon moment, no-one here, including me, believes him...

Cheers

blutto

Amen, brother.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Actually it is - why would you even assume that he has a PR firm?

Lets face it - if he had, they're pretty awful.
They would have been sitting on their hands until just before the Trek case. How many interviews has he given in the last 10 years?


I had to check and see what a 'freeper' was - I found some stuff on 'urban dictionary', and wiki.

Simple answer is no - I am not even American so....

...oh, you really don't have to be American...and once you have changed your focus from GL to GWB you'll fit right in....you'll love it....its an absolutely perfect echo chamber...you'll make a pile of new friends...and life will be good...

....and no, you don't have to thank me for the encouragement, its entirely my pleasure....

Cheers

blutto
 

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blutto said:
...oh, you really don't have to be American...and once you have changed your focus from GL to GWB you'll fit right in....you'll love it....its an absolutely perfect echo chamber...you'll make a pile of new friends...and life will be good...

....and no, you don't have to thank me for the encouragement, its entirely my pleasure....

Cheers

blutto

What part of no in my earlier reply did you not understand?

Blutto - you want to know my politics, then PM me, you want to say LeMond is a doper, sure - bring it up in the appropriate thread.

I am not interested in your politics, or even you - I am interested in any facts, rumours or anything you may have - and expect it to be challanged, in the same way as you can challange mine.

Unless you have something to do with the subject here - which is the 70,000 pages that were sent to the fed's then there is no need to reply.

....and no, you don't have to thank me for the encouragement, its entirely my pleasure....
 

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blutto said:
...oh, you really don't have to be American...and once you have changed your focus from GL to GWB you'll fit right in....you'll love it....its an absolutely perfect echo chamber...you'll make a pile of new friends...and life will be good...

....and no, you don't have to thank me for the encouragement, its entirely my pleasure....

Cheers

blutto

What part of no in my earlier reply did you not understand?

Blutto - you want to know my politics, then PM me, you want to say LeMond is a doper, sure - bring it up in the appropriate thread.

I am not interested in your politics, or even you - I am interested in any facts, rumours or anything you may have - and expect it to be challanged, in the same way as you can challange mine.

Unless you have something to do with the subject here - which is the 70,000 pages that were sent to the fed's then there is no need to reply.

As you said,....and no, you don't have to thank me for the encouragement, its entirely my pleasure....
 
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blutto said:
same goes goes for Lance, so as result of that believe/nonbelieve kind of Rubicon moment, no-one here, including me, believes him...

Cheers

blutto

actually quite a few believe Lance to be a freak of nature that after cancer he had the ability to win 7 TdFs in a row. I know I know can you imagine, but hey some people got to believe in something....like santa i suppose.