Lessons from Lance

[flicker]

Have a link to where either of these guys said that?

That's what I thought....

The main lesson you seemed to have learned from Lance is lying and faux outrage.

For the hate I have seen here by the ex-fan boys of uno I speculate that they feel he was the king of organized systematic cheating. Those haters follow Walsh and LeMond.
They may be right. Unfortunatley if you want to attract new fans to the sport I believe we need to present thhese issues in a gentle manner. I think the UCI walks a fine line between what they know and what they want to enforce and reveal. Same with bio-passport. Rome wasn't built in a day but I think it can be destroyed in a day. I am talking fan base here not Mr. Armstrong/Bruyneel/Shack. Without the fans and new fans we do not have the sport.

 

[Berzin]

This is what some of you prime obfuscators need to collectively get through your heads-this investigation isn't about all of cycling during the Armstrong period-it's about what he and his team did.

Dragging this tiresome line of thought around from thread to thread that "they all doped" has nothing to do with the fact that the investigation is focusing on the shenanigans at US Postal/Discovery exclusively.

It is a specific investigation, and Armstrong will not be subpoenaed because he is one of the main players.

Whether y'all like it or not, HE is the focus. So if they all doped or if it was just him is irrelevant.

Focus, gentlemen-y'all need focus. And if you fanboys can't manage it, Novizky is doing it for you as we speak.

 

[Berzin]

This is what Flicker and the rest of you prime obfuscators need to collectively get through your heads-this investigation isn't about all of cycling during the Armstrong period-it's about what he and his team did.

Dragging the tiresome line of thought around from thread to thread that "they all doped" has nothing to do with the fact that the investigation is focusing on the shenanigans at US Postal/Discovery exclusively.

It is a specific investigation, and Armstrong will not be subpoenaed because he is one of the main players.

Whether y'all like it or not, HE and the other hatchet men are the focus. So if they all doped or if it was just him is irrelevant.

Focus, gentlemen-y'all need focus. But don't worry if you fanboys can't manage it. Novizky is doing it for you as we speak.

 

[flicker]

This is what Flicker and the rest of you prime obfuscators need to collectively get through your heads-this investigation isn't about all of cycling during the Armstrong period-it's about what he and his team did.

Dragging the tiresome line of thought around from thread to thread that "they all doped" has nothing to do with the fact that the investigation is focusing on the shenanigans at US Postal/Discovery exclusively.

It is a specific investigation, and Armstrong will not be subpoenaed because he is one of the main players.

Whether y'all like it or not, HE and the other hatchet men are the focus. So if they all doped or if it was just him is irrelevant.

Focus, gentlemen-y'all need focus. But don't worry if you fanboys can't manage it. Novizky is doing it for you as we speak.

Oh Berzin, I have been vanquished by a harder man than I. You sir are my new master! Do with me as ye wish.

 

[131313]

For the hate I have seen here by the ex-fan boys of uno I speculate that they feel he was the king of organized systematic cheating. Those haters follow Walsh and LeMond.

That may be what people here are saying, but where have LeMond or particularly Flandis said anything like that? People make this crap up to marginalize what Floyd is saying, but remember what he said: Armstrong was a badass bike racer, and if he didn't win those tours doped, another doped rider would have won them instead. Let's not lose sight of what he actually said, OK?

 

[skidmark]

They may be right. Unfortunatley if you want to attract new fans to the sport I believe we need to present thhese issues in a gentle manner. I think the UCI walks a fine line between what they know and what they want to enforce and reveal. Same with bio-passport. Rome wasn't built in a day but I think it can be destroyed in a day. I am talking fan base here not Mr. Armstrong/Bruyneel/Shack. Without the fans and new fans we do not have the sport.

It's an interesting issue, the whole 'does Lance's downfall affect the survival of the sport'? Although I've always been a disliker of the man Armstrong, I would be naive to suggest that he hasn't been responsible for many people tuning in, or at least being able to tune in (I don't believe the Tour would have been covered as extensively as it is in North America without him) to watch cycling. Yes, it's only the Tour, and yes, many fans are clueless about the sport beyond Armstrong, but some have stayed and learned.

Regardless, with the current investigation, I've seen people suggest that the sport is 'going to suffer' in some way. At the same time, I've seen, on the sponsor side of things, every top level team that had a contract that was up save Milram (ie. Caisse, BBox, Saxo, even the hapless Footon team) get a new sponsor/renewal, and a new top level team is starting up (Schleck's). More Pro Conti teams are expressing their desire to move up, and, most strikingly, 3 North American teams (SpiderTech, Healthnet, Type 1) are expressing their ambition to move up to Pro Conti and ultimately ProTour. That would indicate that, on the team level, cycling is as strong as it ever has been in North America, the market you would expect to be impacted most negatively by all this Armstrong stuff. Yet all of these developments have been announced since the investigation started. And yes, that doesn't necessarily translate into more fans for the sport, but I'm not sure why these teams would be wanting to move up and get more sponsorship if they didn't think that was the case.

Lance is retired, for good now, and although the investigation he's involved in will be interesting as details come out, I'm not sure what else the subject of him has to contribute to cycling discussions, other than redundant bickering. So, should we just forget about him like the world of cycling seems to be doing? I'm leaning towards yes.

 

[flicker]

That may be what people here are saying, but where have LeMond or particularly Flandis said anything like that? People make this crap up to marginalize what Floyd is saying, but remember what he said: Armstrong was a badass bike racer, and if he didn't win those tours doped, another doped rider would have won them instead. Let's not lose sight of what he actually said, OK?

I know people me included have marginalized Floyd/Walsh/Greg. Not because I do not believe them but because they do not see the big picture.
My opinion does not matter squat. Lets look a t the big picture of a fan base in the US. That is so I can selfishly watch the sport at a pub or in my home here in the USA. And I do not like it when my 10 year old son asks me if Lance takes dope, or a newbie on my club ride asks me if Lance dopes. Puts me in an awkward position because I know, and I do not like to be the messenger. If Novitsky sucessfully outs the situation right on he is doing his job. Not me though. I am just the fan standing on the side of the road cheering on the champions. The sponsors see us also, and that is why those champions have jobs, because of us the fans.

 

[Polish]

If there is one thing that the "Lance Apologists' are - they are polite.
And the world can always use more politeness lol.

But really, there is no need to apologize about "a level playing field".

When Lance was in a Race, the playing field was no longer level.
The same thing when Eddy or Hinault lined up at the start.

No need to apologize.
The playing field WOULD be tipped under the weight of their awesomeness.

And to think that it was doping alone that did that TIPPING reveals a cycling naïveté that would make a Lance Apologist giggle.

 

[Berzin]

But really, there is no need to apologize about "a level playing field".

When Lance was in a Race, the playing field was no longer level.
The same thing when Eddy or Hinault lined up at the start.

No need to apologize.
The playing field WOULD be tipped under the weight of their awesomeness.

Awesomeness-you sound like a little girl at a Justin Bieber concert. Is that what Lance does to you? Because if it is, that is disgusting for a grown man. Really disgusting.

By the way, this is what REAL Lance awesomeness looks like, Polish-enjoy the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

 

[redtreviso]

Lance fanbois remind me of this... OH LANCE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJR8ZNAnRoM

 

[Cobblestoned]

Never said this. He just wasn't talented enough to win 7 Tours without dope. And I never said his opponents were clean.

If you are claiming "objectivity" feel free to respond to what I've actually said and not what you think I've implied. I have a firm enough grasp on the English language not to have to worry about my statements being misconstrued by those who are truly objective. Only posters like you take issues with intent, when the intent is quite clear.




No worries. Since you're disagreeing about statements I've never made, the laugh is on you. I suggest "Reading Comp 101 for Idiots"-a helpful tool in understanding what people post.

Hmmh

I think you bonked - heavily

 

[roadfreak44]

the great burning tower

This is what Flicker and the rest of you prime obfuscators need to collectively get through your heads-this investigation isn't about all of cycling during the Armstrong period-it's about what he and his team did.

Dragging the tiresome line of thought around from thread to thread that "they all doped" has nothing to do with the fact that the investigation is focusing on the shenanigans at US Postal/Discovery exclusively.

It is a specific investigation, and Armstrong will not be subpoenaed because he is one of the main players.

Whether y'all like it or not, HE and the other hatchet men are the focus. So if they all doped or if it was just him is irrelevant.

Focus, gentlemen-y'all need focus. But don't worry if you fanboys can't manage it. Novizky is doing it for you as we speak.

Are you actually that reality challenged that you cant see what will happen if LA/us postal team is dragged into the crapper with this? Lets say there are enough people willing to testify for whatever reasons that he doped and he is indicted and then convicted for doping. The UCI will have to strip him of his victories. Their credibility , the bio passport and their oversight is completely up in flames. What does THAT do to the general public perception of cycling? The TDF organization will have to then do likewise. The TDF organization and race will be utterly disgraced. What else will be stripped is any credibility for the sport whatsoever. landis being stripped of his tdf victory was a torpedo in the side of the ship that is cycling. Killing LAs credibility will be the second torpedo that sinks it completely. The sponsors will flee the debacle and without them many teams will fold and hundreds of riders will be jobless. Am i being a little too melodramatic here? we'll see. Sponsors are already hard to find...Strip a seven time winner of the TDF of credibility and declare fraud in the sport and every winner of the TDFs performance including Lemonds will be forever tarnished. Lemond of course believes his credibility will only increase if all this comes to pass and possibly but at the price of his popularity. His credibility and popularity have greatly waned and will be essentially non existent if he is able to bring down LA with the likes of Pretty Boy Floyd. His collusion with that whack job has already burned the respect of many people who felt he was still a great champion(including yours truly) I do not look forward to the demise of cycling or LA. I have never admired armstrongs persona (its hard to like a ***)but still as seven times a TDF champ it is hard to deny the guys got something. There are a lot of people in the peloton that took drugs but i have yet to see a donkey transformed into a race horse that can win the kentucky derby by the simple administering of drugs. Is this enough focus for you?

 

[Neworld]

By the way, this is what REAL Lance awesomeness looks like, Polish-enjoy the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

Great video...LA's cadence wasn't rapid back then and his ITT prowess was average at best....hummm!

Notice that Indurain didn't have time to give Lance 'the look' as he blew past LA so fast he would have permanently strained his neck.

Some people still believe that when LA raced there was a level playing field. How do they know this? What if Lance stopped using large EPO injections in 1999, and then went on hyperdoping with a combo of EPO microdosing, Test, HGH and autologous blood doping(ABD), whereas, the rest of the dopers only used Test and HGH? What if the other dopers didn't start into ABD much later like in 2003 with Fuentes?
What lesson(s) would we have learned if that were the case?

NW

 

[Neworld]

Are you actually that reality challenged that you cant see what will happen if LA/us postal team is dragged into the crapper with this? Killing LAs credibility will be the second torpedo that sinks it completely.

I personally would rather see clean athletes, with fewer sponsers and TV coverage than megadoping liars who are supposedly great enough to win 7 TdFs in a row.

NW

 

[hrotha]

Awesomeness-you sound like a little girl at a Justin Bieber concert. Is that what Lance does to you? Because if it is, that is disgusting for a grown man. Really disgusting.

By the way, this is what REAL Lance awesomeness looks like, Polish-enjoy the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

Haha, I love how bitter the Spanish commentators were about LA beating Indurain in the WC

 

[Irish2009]

If you think taking down Lance(if guilty) will be the destruction of cycling, well then thats the price we as followers of cycling will have to pay for the way the sport is run and the way in which cheats are allowed to prosper within. I would prefer we start with a clean sheet than continue with the charade we have now.

 

[quarterpounder]

Lance had the best bike, the best tires, the most aerodynamic helmet and clothes, the most efficient cadence and position, the best sunglasses, the best team, the best bus, the most attention to detail, the best work ethic and the biggest drive to win. The only thing he did not outdo his competition with was doping.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Great video...LA's cadence wasn't rapid back then and his ITT prowess was average at best....hummm!

Notice that Indurain didn't have time to give Lance 'the look' as he blew past LA so fast he would have permanently strained his neck.

Some people still believe that when LA raced there was a level playing field. How do they know this? What if Lance stopped using large EPO injections in 1999, and then went on hyperdoping with a combo of EPO microdosing, Test, HGH and autologous blood doping(ABD), whereas, the rest of the dopers only used Test and HGH? What if the other dopers didn't start into ABD much later like in 2003 with Fuentes?
What lesson(s) would we have learned if that were the case?

NW

Some people still believe that all the other cyclists/countries/teams must have been too stupid, too "good" and too poor to dope effectively.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Are you actually that reality challenged that you cant see what will happen if LA/us postal team is dragged into the crapper with this? Lets say there are enough people willing to testify for whatever reasons that he doped and he is indicted and then convicted for doping. The UCI will have to strip him of his victories. Their credibility , the bio passport and their oversight is completely up in flames. What does THAT do to the general public perception of cycling? The TDF organization will have to then do likewise. The TDF organization and race will be utterly disgraced. What else will be stripped is any credibility for the sport whatsoever. landis being stripped of his tdf victory was a torpedo in the side of the ship that is cycling. Killing LAs credibility will be the second torpedo that sinks it completely. The sponsors will flee the debacle and without them many teams will fold and hundreds of riders will be jobless. Am i being a little too melodramatic here? we'll see. Sponsors are already hard to find...Strip a seven time winner of the TDF of credibility and declare fraud in the sport and every winner of the TDFs performance including Lemonds will be forever tarnished. Lemond of course believes his credibility will only increase if all this comes to pass and possibly but at the price of his popularity. His credibility and popularity have greatly waned and will be essentially non existent if he is able to bring down LA with the likes of Pretty Boy Floyd. His collusion with that whack job has already burned the respect of many people who felt he was still a great champion(including yours truly) I do not look forward to the demise of cycling or LA. I have never admired armstrongs persona (its hard to like a ***)but still as seven times a TDF champ it is hard to deny the guys got something. There are a lot of people in the peloton that took drugs but i have yet to see a donkey transformed into a race horse that can win the kentucky derby by the simple administering of drugs. Is this enough focus for you?

To the blue above - you are suggesting that the UCI** has credibility?

The only reason there is some faith in the system now is because of the Bio-Passport - the same one that the UCI admitted to only pursuing 3 out of 8 riders flagged.
It is only a matter of time before some Police or State investigation shows the sport for what it is ...again.

As long as the mistakes are not learned - and changes made at the UCI - then the cycle continues.
There have been oppurtunities to effect change i the past - after Festina 98 & Puerto '06 - instead we got weak BS & PR.

But you're right about Armstrong,he has got something - its the UCI in his backpocket.
And for the sport to try and regain any credibility it has to expose them all for the frauds they are.


**This is the same UCI that admits taking one donation from a star rider in 2006? Sorry that was meant to be 2005. Definitley 2005 Pat was firm this time.
Actually sorry - there was another donation in 2002, ok, so just 2 donations, 1 in 2002 the other in 2005.
Opps - sorry that second donation was in 2007.

The same UCI that said they were going to release the lab reports back in May on their website - and 4 months later have not? The same UCI who won't release details of the transactions by Armstrong?

 

[Polish]

By the way, this is what REAL Lance awesomeness looks like, Polish-enjoy the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

Lance, as a second year pro in that vid, finished the stage at 54+kms/hour.
Much faster TT than second year Big Mig back in the 1986 TdF.

Lance was faster than Big Mig later in his career too.

Apples to apples Lance was faster. Young Lance & Old Lance.
Faster than Big Mig.
How do you like them apples?

 

[callac]

(...) The TDF organization and race will be utterly disgraced. What else will be stripped is any credibility for the sport whatsoever. landis being stripped of his tdf victory was a torpedo in the side of the ship that is cycling. Killing LAs credibility will be the second torpedo that sinks it completely.

That's a very American- and TDF-centric view on cycling.
Cycling began far before the 90's. The credibility of some winners' names is already zero, but some nouns like "col du Tourmalet", "trouée d'Arenberg", "Poggio" or "Geraardsbergen" are what is making cycling history.
Landis being stripped of his title is already as good as forgotten in Europe.

Strip a seven time winner of the TDF of credibility and declare fraud in the sport and every winner of the TDFs performance including Lemonds will be forever tarnished. Lemond of course believes his credibility will only increase if all this comes to pass and possibly but at the price of his popularity. His credibility and popularity have greatly waned and will be essentially non existent (...)

What LeMond believes about his credibility is pure conjecture from you. His popularity and credibility in Europe wasn't tarnished since 2001, rather increased, because the level of scrutiny about past champions has increased and he stands out as the guy with zero suspicion against him.
I don't know anybody around me who doesn't already see Armstrong's seven wins as an obscene parenthesis in the history of the TDF. Stripping him from his titles won't change a thing... except giving a sense of justice and feeling 'right'.

 

[Cobblestoned]

That's a very American- and TDF-centric view on cycling.
Cycling began far before the 90's. The credibility of some winners' names is already zero, but some nouns like "col du Tourmalet", "trouée d'Arenberg", "Poggio" or "Geraardsbergen" are what is making cycling history.
Landis being stripped of his title is already as good as forgotten in Europe.


What LeMond believes about his credibility is pure conjecture from you. His popularity and credibility in Europe wasn't tarnished since 2001, rather increased, because the level of scrutiny about past champions has increased and he stands out as the guy with zero suspicion against him.
I don't know anybody around me who doesn't already see Armstrong's seven wins as an obscene parenthesis in the history of the TDF. Stripping him from his titles won't change a thing... except giving a sense of justice and feeling 'right'.

So, whom would you give his titles to ?

Zülle ?
Escartín ?
Virenque ?
Ullrich ?
Beloki ?
Rumsas ?
Vinokurov ?
Basso ?
.
.
.
.
or to the laterne rouge ?

 

[pmcg76]

So, whom would you give his titles to ?

Zülle ?
Escartín ?
Virenque ?
Ullrich ?
Beloki ?
Rumsas ?
Vinokurov ?
Basso ?
.
.
.
.
or to the laterne rouge ?

David Moncoutie or perhaps Christophe Bassons or Filippo Simeoni

 

[Anonymous]

I learned from Lance how funny this photo is.

 

[Cobblestoned]

David Moncoutie or perhaps Christophe Bassons or Filippo Simeoni

Its nonsense, but I would give some of these virtual awards to Jens Voigt.
Would sound great after he ends his career.

Jens Voigt - 15 times Tour de France winner and Chuck Norris Defeater