Logisitcs

[Anonymous]

A brave contribution.

And one that in no way contradicts the fact that it happens. See, we know that it CLEARLY was happening, and his post merely describes the conditions under which it did. If it was happening, it still can/is. Why would someone who has doped in the past pass up a method of doping that is currently undetectable? You think the peloton dopers just grew a conscience the past few years? Do you know nothing about human behavior? Don't answer, we already know.

 

[Race Radio]

Sorry if I am repeating what somebody else already wrote but I skipped a few pages in this thread, reading through all the trolling accusations would simply take forever.

The logistics of doping, especially during the GT's:
Epo gets injected subcutaneously and can be done by the rider himself. He basically just need to collect from his "pusher" and take the stuff.
Testosterone is usually applied as a cream or patch, again, very easy for the rider to administer by himself.

The blood transfusion is the tricky part.
First of all there is the issue with handling and identification. You don't want to infuse somebody else's blood. Anaphylactic or allergic reactions can occur as it did with Marzano. Even worse, you could fail a test for homologous blood doping.

Next, the rider usually does not have the skills to insert the IV by himself. Having inserted a few thousand IV-lines myself, I can say, that it takes some training. There is a learning curve of approximately 30-40 IVs for a paramedic/nurse/med student, before they get it right in the easy to average case.
Then add the limit amount of veins available for puncture (you can't really the arms/hands, needle marks are bad for business) and the less than optimal working conditions of a hotel room.

Luckily, GT riders are skinny fellows, so it will usually be possible to insert the IV in the foot. If not, then you're bound for an abdominal vein or the upper thigh. As a last resort, a vein on the arms can be used but you risk haematomas if you're not careful when inserting the needle or you risk subcutaneous extravasation of the blood. In either case you leave some nasty tell-tale marks, which are hard to cover up the next day.

Then you need to be comfy with the infusion itself, getting the lines connected etc. etc.

All this needs to be done in a hurry and in a stressful environment.

So delivery of the blood doping during i.e. the Tour requires not only getting the blood bag from the clinic to the hotel without heating it. It also requires skilled personnel to infuse the the stuff in a hurry under suboptimal conditions.

Good input.

One of the reasons some doctors, like Pedro Celaya or Andres Blum, continue to find employment is because of their fine needle skills. Done properly none of this takes longer then 10-15 minutes

 

[Martinello]

I don't have ironclad evidence of blood doping happing during GTs in 2009 but I find it highly likely that it happens.

What I am trying to say is that the game keeps getting more complicated. Back in the 80's every idiot on a bike could stuff him/herself with anabolic steroids, synacthene, amphetamines, corticoids etc. without any real medical assistance. You could do fine with the level of advice you would get from the tattooed blokes in any fitness centre.

In the 90's epo entered the scene and people started taking it like they had been taking the 'roids - on a trial and error basis. Only problem was that error could mean a huge mural thrombosis gathering in your right or left ventricle at 3 a.m., making you wake up dead. So medical assistance with monitoring, dosage regimens and supplement administration became much more needed. Same stuff applies to testosterone, IGF-1, hgh and oxygen carriers.

With the decline of rampant epo use (50% limits, epo-tests, bio passport), blood doping is the currently the most potent PE. But it is also the most expensive and cumbersome method and its' use is thus restricted to the persons/teams with the knowledge/infrastructure/economy in place.

Running a 'black market blood bank' like Fuentes did is complicated and risky. Judging from the TV-footage from his clinic and the accounts of Manzano, I would say that gynecologists shouldn't run blood banks. Poorly marked blood bags, messy fridges w/o alarms, infusing "bad blood", no treatment of major complications after infusions - if this level of sloppiness took place in an ordinary hospital the shop would be closed down immediately. No wonder Telekom chose to use an established infrastructure (Freiburg) for their programme.

 

[Race Radio]

The idea that most teams are doing it is pretty far fetched.

Nobody has said this, this is just your strawman.

 

[East Sycamore]

Sorry if I am repeating what somebody else already wrote but I skipped a few pages in this thread, reading through all the trolling accusations would simply take forever.

The logistics of doping, especially during the GT's:
Epo gets injected subcutaneously and can be done by the rider himself. He basically just need to collect from his "pusher" and take the stuff.
Testosterone is usually applied as a cream or patch, again, very easy for the rider to administer by himself.

The blood transfusion is the tricky part.
First of all there is the issue with handling and identification. You don't want to infuse somebody else's blood. Anaphylactic or allergic reactions can occur as it did with Marzano. Even worse, you could fail a test for homologous blood doping.

Next, the rider usually does not have the skills to insert the IV by himself. Having inserted a few thousand IV-lines myself, I can say, that it takes some training. There is a learning curve of approximately 30-40 IVs for a paramedic/nurse/med student, before they get it right in the easy to average case.
Then add the limit amount of veins available for puncture (you can't really the arms/hands, needle marks are bad for business) and the less than optimal working conditions of a hotel room.

Luckily, GT riders are skinny fellows, so it will usually be possible to insert the IV in the foot. If not, then you're bound for an abdominal vein or the upper thigh. As a last resort, a vein on the arms can be used but you risk haematomas if you're not careful when inserting the needle or you risk subcutaneous extravasation of the blood. In either case you leave some nasty tell-tale marks, which are hard to cover up the next day.

Then you need to be comfy with the infusion itself, getting the lines connected etc. etc.

All this needs to be done in a hurry and in a stressful environment.

So delivery of the blood doping during i.e. the Tour requires not only getting the blood bag from the clinic to the hotel without heating it. It also requires skilled personnel to infuse the the stuff in a hurry under suboptimal conditions.

Thank you for some actual information amongst all the back and forth crap that has hijacked this thread. Also, just because it is difficult to blood dope doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It may mean that only the top teams or riders do it, but that is still a large portion of the peloton at a race like the Tour de France.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes it sounds quite tricky and extremely risky. The idea that most teams are doing it is pretty far fetched. I suspect only a few nutters would take the gamble these days.

All forms of doping are going down pretty quick in my view, reflected in this years ToF. We can all cheer up a bit.

Ok, I'll take another stab at this:

Are you Pat McQuaid?

 

[Escarabajo]

Nice input Martinello.

Thank you for some actual information amongst all the back and forth crap that has hijacked this thread. Also, just because it is difficult to blood dope doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It may mean that only the top teams or riders do it, but that is still a large portion of the peloton at a race like the Tour de France.

You also have to take into account the OMERTA. In some teams, more than in others, riders could be helping each other. If I was doing it, I would feel a lot better if some other riders in the team were engaged in it. It would be easy to cover up. Like drive offsite with friends, receiving visitors with your roommate, etc. It looks from the previous comments from Martinello, which makes sense, that engaging in blood doping by yourself is harder than to do it in a group. So as long as the OMERTA is still alive, the widespread doping will continue.

 

[Anonymous]

But rather backs up my point that it's a clumsy form of doping that is not as as widespread as made out due to this fact.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Anonymous]

No there are certainly many people who believe blood doping is rampant across most of the teams. That's what the thread is about. Try to pay attention. The fact that even you are determined to argue against me also rather gives the game away as to your own views - whatever small concessions you are forced to make due to the logic of the argument against you.

It appears your hero (not really, because I know you are really a Lance "hater") blood doped this year during the TdF. His blood profile remained constant during a 3 week tour...hmmm...people who know what they are talking about say that is physiologically impossible. Guess Coyle better warm up the spin machine and explain this one with more witchcraft science!

 

[Anonymous]

See, RaceRadio.

I don't have to, the guy you quoted said it is highly likely it is happening in a later post. You are not only grammatically challenged, but I am not sure you can read very well either.

 

[Race Radio]

many people who believe blood doping is rampant across most of the teams. That's what the thread is about.

Show me one post on this thread that states this. I do not see anyone but your strawman claiming it is rampant......but of course you know this and are only interested in trolling.

This thread is about logistics, how the riders blood dope.

 

[Anonymous]

There is no absolute hard way to prove or disprove this - needless to say, I'm certainly not going to take the word of some hatchet men on an internet forum message about blood profiles - but the risks involved, especially with the extreme focus on LA, make it seem pretty unlikely to my mind. His performances didn't point to this either.

Oh, you know he doped. You are just trolling and claiming you don't. I know the shtick. <wink> <wink>.

This is my ode to Lance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0t0EW6z8a0

 

[Anonymous]

The thread is about arguing against the notion that its as widespread as made out due to the logistics. You know this very well. Stop trolling. People are tired of this.

And there is nothing here to prove your point. The logistics are what they are. People find a way logistically every day in every profession. This one is no different. Lance is a blood doper and he doped this year and every year he won the Tour and the years before that too. Its just the way it is dude. Sorry.

 

[Von Mises]

Nice input Martinello.

You also have to take into account the OMERTA. In some teams, more than in others, riders could be helping each other. If I was doing it, I would feel a lot better if some other riders in the team were engaged in it. It would be easy to cover up. Like drive offsite with friends, receiving visitors with your roommate, etc. It looks from the previous comments from Martinello, which makes sense, that engaging in blood doping by yourself is harder than to do it in a group. So as long as the OMERTA is still alive, the widespread doping will continue.

I have an impression that during recent years doping practices have moved more on shoulders of riders and out of the teams. I guess the there are legal and contractual issues backing this trend. Everyone wants to cover their @sses. Sponsors are pressing team managers and put special clauses into contracts. Team managers are pressing riders and putting special clauses into their contracts.

Again, pointing to Sinkewitz confession, he was talking about these developments. Even internal tests served that cause - putting responsibilities and risks more on riders themselves and away from the team. Though, even if motivation behind this trend is hypocritical, it is still good if it raises risk and complications to dope.

 

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by BanProCycling "But rather backs up my point that it's a clumsy form of doping that is not as as widespread as made out due to this fact."

ThoughtforFood replies "No, it doesn't".

Game set and match.

Thanks for recognizing I bested you in knowledge of cycling, doping, and as a man.

 

[Anonymous]

Again scores an own goal. That's what friends are for...

Here, tell you what. Prove that the logistical problems are too difficult to overcome. I never said that there weren't logistical problems. Just that most humans, (you are not on the list) are intelligent enough to overcome them. Hell, they do all kinds of drugs in prison, and those guys have people looking up their assholes (literally). I am guessing that France is a bit less strict.

Game, set, match indeed.

 

[Race Radio]

The thread is about arguing against the notion that its as widespread as made out due to the logistics. You know this very well. Stop trolling. People are tired of this.

"its as widespread as made out" ????

Who is saying it is widespread? I see a bunch of posters saying it is achievable, I do not see anyone that is saying it is widespread or that everyone is doing it.

 

[Escarabajo]

I have an impression that during recent years doping practices have moved more on shoulders of riders and out of the teams. I guess the there are legal and contractual issues backing this trend. Everyone wants to cover their @sses. Sponsors are pressing team managers and put special clauses into contracts. Team managers are pressing riders and putting special clauses into their contracts.

Again, pointing to Sinkewitz confession, he was talking about these developments. Even internal tests served that cause - putting responsibilities and risks more on riders themselves and away from the team. Though, even if motivation behind this trend is hypocritical, it is still good if it raises risk and complications to dope.

You make a good point. Still, by looking at some of the team performances in the past Tour de France, I am skeptical about three teams in particular. So team work can be still going on. I know things are not as simple as it was before, but we could be fooling ourselves. Look at what happened with Operacion Puerto, just when we thought we were having a cleaner peloton, the facts proved us wrong again.

 

[Race Radio]

Pssst, Foodforthought has just spent the last four posts disputing my claim that it's not widespread. Other people have done so on the thread.

thank you for proving that you have diminished comprehension. TFF, nor any other poster, claimed it was widespread.

 

[Anonymous]

Eh, you do realise you're not a serious person and the main little back and forth I'm involved in here is with RaceRadio, and you are proving my points against him? You're like the two year old child, buzzing about - there isn't even any coherent trolling points you are making for me to address. Just thought I'd let you know, Foody. I thought you were purposely helping me out because you are my official friend now.

Oh, I never said it wasn't widespread. It is in my opinion. The difference here is that I respect Race Radio because he is intelligent. I just differ on this point. I like you because you are the best troll on this forum. I sent the friend request because your trollkraft is so powerful.

See, I am not Race Radio, so I am allowed my own opinions.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes they did. Foody just disputed me saying it was not widespread. I quoted it for you. You've made this point before and up popped bainchigirl to say she thought it was widespread too.

Look, if you really believed I was straw manning then you would have made this point in the early pages when I was making precisely the same points, not wait until much later when you didn't have any other point to make. You're not credible in your approach.

Don't get me wrong though. While I do believe it is widespread, you don't. You also believe that Lance is clean. That is just stupid. Race Radio knows enough to realize Lance isn't clean either. The difference between you and he is significant.

 

[Anonymous]

:d :d :d :d :d :d

On to another subject: How do you feel about Armstrong transfusing his blood during the Tour this year?

 

[sars1981]

Why do I easily ignore this? This precisely shows how difficult it is. If it was widespread then there would be a hell of a lot more incidents like this.

You're unbelievable you really are.

 

[Von Mises]

You make a good point. Still, by looking at some of the team performances in the past Tour de France, I am skeptical about three teams in particular. So team work can be still going on. I know things are not as simple as it was before, but we could be fooling ourselves. Look at what happened with Operacion Puerto, just when we thought we were having a cleaner peloton, the facts proved us wrong again.

I dont deny that. I am sure it still happens. Just hope that trend is to another direction.

(As a side note. I see that lot of posters, even in this thread discussing logistics, are pointing to the cases from the past: ONCE, OP, Festina, Willy Voet etc. Sometimes years or even a decade ago. Though, cases of past are interesting, I am more interested of the present, this year, last year, next year. What is the state and scale of doping now? In what direction it is moving? What anti-doping practices have worked etc?)

 

[auscyclefan94]

if you were following cycling closely enough, you would have the answers to all those questions. 98 changed the model for doping. Less flasks that were rattling with ice cubes.

More wives and girlfriends.

Ofcourse, if you had been following cycling closely you would know this.

Mate i'm not talking about a specific year. I'm talking about over the past few years. I did follow cycling back then and understand that doping was a majority back then for multiple reasons. Their is a stricter system in place now which makes it hard for riders to dope. it's a fact and you would know that if you were following cycling closely! I do understand the more wives and girlfirends who bring in the dope of drugs but it wouldn't be hard to catch em and then would be more cases of cheats which is a GOOD thing.