Logisitcs

[blackcat]

blackcat, but dont you see that if you are right, then it gives another option to argue that during Tour 2006 peloton was cleaner.

If 2005 doped Sink was able to achieve midpack results in TT-s and 2006 doped Sink (lets assume he lied that he was cleaner during 2006) was able to achieve TOP 10 result, then I can conclude that lot of his competitors were cleaner during 2006, otherwise he´d not be able to achieve TOP 10, doped or not doped.

I am not arguing the peloton was cleaner, you were.

And I am not arguing the top tier was any cleaner, they were still on rocket fuel.

 

[Race Radio]

These points are disputed. Firstly, just because Vaughters hears a rumour in the tour and relays it to a mate in a privatg chat online doesn't make it absolute truth. The fact is he would not have been in a position to know. There are rumours going around the sport all the time about this and that - as you say, it is a very chaotic sitiuaton. I question why so many here you automatically treat these gossip rumours as fact....you should hear the rumours that go around about high level politicians amongst other politicians. Far too much weight is often put on rumours - we have to think about the logistics of how the rumour would work if it were true and not just accept it.

I have already stated that it's true that teams stay in not-so-good hotels at the smaller races around Europe. Even someone who has only read Armstrong's book would know that - he talks about how he had to lump it around crappy hotels. It's true. But this is not the case for the Tours, and certainly not the case for the top teams with millionaire riders. I'm sure you've read the articles about how Armstrong was always given the very top rooms for he and his celebrity guests in the last tour, to the annoyance of Contador. It's not credible that a team like Astana would be staying in a $hitty hotel. You're just wrong about that. The security guys would know exactly who is coming and going.

There is also a media focus on GT's - especially the ToF - that there just isn't for these smaller races. Yes there is lots of chaos and people around at the finish as the circus moves town, but it would be naive to think the world's media didn't include people that are specifically there to keep a very close eye on the likes of Armstrong and the other GT favourites, and that many dozens of unmarked motorbike guys around the team areas arr not looked on with suspicious. The chances of the one motor bike guy or the hotel staff tipping people off about this mass operation to move blood bags all over the country, or someone else in this supply chain doing so, is overwhelming. And if you want to imagine the scale of this operation for the over hundred riders in different teams, then we get past the percentage where a mistake would have to happen to someone almost in every stage.

So I'm afraid these issues have not been answered. Nobody who has made these points - i think there are three of us on this thread - has seen anything to change our minds. It's certainly not trolling because we don't automatically believe every single rumour we hear. Nobody should be stroppy about this. We're just saying that it's not as big a practice as often potrayed.

As usual you are wrong.

There is no dispute that Fuentes used a guy on a moto and they rented an apartment for the rest day. This is not a "Rumor"

Astana, or any other team, does not choose their hotel at the Tour. They are assigned to them by the ASO. Please give us a link about Armstrong and his Penthouse suites. The special treatment Armstrong gets is he has his own room, he does not share. This makes it easier to transfuse without those pesky teammates asking "Where is mine"?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Yeah and for Hyatt, Hilton and Sheraton, read Ibis, Campanile....maybe even Formula.
Riders are really up market, if they manage a Mercure, or Novotel.
Hotels, is probably one of the main reasons that the Tour no longer visits places that it used frequent.
It must be a logistical nightmare for the "circus", when they are racing through Central France.
It's a wonder they don't have to resort to "Chambres d'Hotes, or, at the very least, this:-
http://www.logis-de-france.fr/uk/index.htm

As for the 2006 T Mobile performance. It was ET to watch, at the time and we now know how it was achieved. There were doubts about Honchar, when they signed him up, as he was already under a cloud of suspicion.
Apparently, he was "checked out", before signing, by the team's Uni of Freiburg hospital medical team, who OK'd him!

Kessler was so far out there, that race.
Still, after 7 years of USPS/Disco dominance, they were hardly likely to be anything other, than fully Freiburged.

 

[Von Mises]

I am not arguing the peloton was cleaner, you were.

And I am not arguing the top tier was any cleaner, they were still on rocket fuel.

Thats true, I am arguing. I am just showing that your claims can be interpreted to different directions.

 

[Cobber]

i agree with this one now.

i usually find that having people ask questions and/or say stupid stuff actually brings out good arguments from people in the know. And BPC has been used in the same way

it has been a laugh BUT now every thread is ruined by his inane ramblings. it no longer even bears any kind of attempt at making people believe he believes himself. Problem is it is now an absolute mess trying to read a thread. Takes so much longer than it would normally have to. Having him on ignore does not help, coz other people respond and take up space. And i don't want to ignore blackcat, race radio etc.

what i'm trying to say is please get him the fúck off here. I don't care what he says, problem is with him taking up all of the forum and ruining any attempt at a discussion.



if everyone could do this, problem would stop

There is a really, really, REALLY simple solution to this problem. Stop responding to his posts! STOP!

If people stop rising to his baiting then he wont have any motive to keep posting and will probably stop altogether. Even if he doesn't stop, you can put him on ignore and he will disappear.

OK, I can see that some people find the back-and-forths with him entertaining, so why don't we limit exchanges with him to a single thread at a time. That way, those that like the entertainment of playing with a troll can have their fun, and those that don't can read the other threads. While these threads usually start on a really good topic, they seldom end that way.....

 

[blackcat]

Kessler was so far out there, that race.
Still, after 7 years of USPS/Disco dominance, they were hardly likely to be anything other, than fully Freiburged.

Mello Velo, you should copyright that phrase. Then you could setup a t-shirt stand at the Tour, with a few other jerseys, "fully Fuentes'ed" "fully Ferrari'ed".

Could do a roaring trade.

 

[Cobber]

Mello Velo, you should copyright that phrase. Then you could setup a t-shirt stand at the Tour, with a few other jerseys, "fully Fuentes'ed" "fully Ferrari'ed".

Could do a roaring trade.

Wow... could you imagine the look on Pat McQuaid's face as he walked by that?! His face would turn redder than a beetroot!

 

[Dude17]

Wow... could you imagine the look on Pat McQuaid's face as he walked by that?! His face would turn redder than a beetroot!

In about two years, how about a white T-shirt or jersey with "It's looking like the Tour de France will not have any positive tests for a number of years. --Pat McQuaid" then a list of all the riders who test positive during the cycling season who are on Pro Tour teams. Then finish it with "at least the Tour is clean."

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Good post. It certainly does raise real questions about the claim here that most teams engage in this on a regular basis.

it doesn't change anything regarding the fact that all of Lance Armstrong's teams engaged in this on a very regular basis though.

 

[Race Radio]

Good post. It certainly does raise real questions about the claim here that most teams engage in this on a regular basis.

Nice strawman...I do not see anyone here saying that "MOST teams engage in this on a regular basis".

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Pssst, the thread is about blood doping.

same procedure, different product, same end result.

if anything a 3 x bags of blood for the GC riders on the stronger teams is much easier to conceal than 180 riders carrying their own epo and syringes around, raiding the hotel ice supplies and hanging from the doorframes at 4am.

especially if you have your own room and a couple of bodyguards.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

In any case if you're worried about being seen you can just send the testers for a coffee in the cafe over the road while you tidy up and bring some crits down to passport levels....if you're Lance and Johan that is.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

The thread is about blood doping in the current game.

same procedure, different product, same end result.



why don't you go and bounce a ball alone in a corner somewhere?

 

[Race Radio]

Are you for real? It's the main question of the thread - how widespread is this practise. You call this a "straw man"? Jesus Christ!

Are you for real? No need to answer as we already know you are just a troll.

The thread is about how doping is achieved during an era of enhanced visibility. You wrote "the claim here that most teams engage in this on a regular basis" I do not see anyone here who has made that claim. In fact quite the opposite, most have written that the issue has reduced dramatically. You created this claim so you could knock it down....a strawman.

We understand from your post's that you may have some devleopmental issues that limit your ability to write but you might want to at least attempt to read what is written prior to posting.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Good post. It certainly does raise real questions about the claim here that most teams engage in this on a regular basis.

What would those questions be?
Sinkewitz was certainly taking a risk, transfusing improperly stored blood, on the eve of the Tour.
Didn't stop him sticking the sludge into his system, though.

As the "risks" (fear of getting caught) of one form of doping increases, there are always several other options.
Pharma companies "products", are often useful, while in the testing phase. "Techno" pros being closely related to guinea pigs.

Up to 2006, I don't see the issue. It was widespread.
USPS's Actovegin dump being the most commonly known example.

 

[Race Radio]

It's very hard for me to believe you are not trolling. It's impossible for me to work out how you could have missed all my posts on this thread, and the others who have raised questions, which have all been suggesting that blood doping was rarer than often made out by many. That has been the issue here. I don't know how you can turn up on page 16 and pretend you didn't know this, and call it a "straw man". My claim has consistently been that most teams probably don't engage in it, not that it never ever happens. This is what the debate has been about and why I have taken a lot of criticism.

Please, I think it's better if you just ignored me. If you're not even going to read the posts you are responding to then what's the point of engaging someone like you? I'm sorry to say you're either stupid or a troll. Go away.

Your willingness to embarrass yourself is impressive.

The thread is about logistics. Everyone agree's that it has been reduced. You are the only one babbling on about maids,CCTV, bus searches, and penthouse suites in an effort to pretend it is not possible.

You can try to twist it however you want (Common troll activity) but anyone can read the thread and know what you are.

 

[Race Radio]

Well why didn't you, or anybody else, say that you agreed with me whilst we were having the debate where I said this? You can't lie your way out of this - the thread is here for everybody to see.

Show me where I said it is impossible? The original poster also highlighted how he believed he would be hard for motorbikes to carry around blood bags all over the place for all the teams. I have said this repeatedly. The thread has been about how the logistics would make it rarer than many here believe. That's why you attacked me.

Thank you for proving my point. You clearly do not read what others write, or have challenges with diminished mental capacity are unable to understand things.

I wrote "Certainly usage has dropped" many times. Others have written the same thing. Meanwhile multiple posters have answer the OPs question of how it continues to happen. You are the only person believing that watchful chamber maids are fighting off Dr. Ferrari's men who are trying to get into Armstrong's penthouse suit.

 

[Anonymous]

Well why didn't you, or anybody else, say that you agreed with me whilst we were having the debate where I said this? You can't lie your way out of this - the thread is here for everybody to see.



Show me where I said it is impossible? The original poster also highlighted how he believed he would be hard for motorbikes to carry around blood bags all over the place for all the teams. I have said this repeatedly. The thread has been about how the logistics would make it rarer than many here believe. That's why you attacked me.



What an annoying troll. The only explanation I have is you are actually debating this House guy you keep refering to in your head and simply haven't bothered to read a word of anything I or others have said. Mind boggling.

Dude, you really need to throw in a Britishism again to keep up the ruse. You could get really inventive and Google "Cockney" find out about them, and throw in some slang. It will keep them guessing.

Just trying to help a fellow troll out!

 

[Hugh Januss]

BanProCycling I am not sure why you keep bringing up all of this doping talk even after the head of the UCI himself has proclaimed the tour to have been dope free. Do you not believe him? Why do you insist on regurgitating old arguements now that the "new age" of cycling has arrived. Are you some kind of doping conspiracy theorist or something? You really have to get over it.

 

[Anonymous]

After you made several trolling posts, you said this once in concession to me. However you then went on to disagree with every single thing I said and thus make out it is as common as ever. You cannot escape this was impression from reading the thread. You clearly forgot what point I was making as you declared it as "straw man". Clearly you were more interested in waging a vendetta against 'House' and weren't bothered about the matter. You probably didn't even read the thread pages before the point where you joined in.

It's a lesson to others here. Stick to the issue and don't get side tracked by doing pointless trolling.

Such and AWESOME troll comment. You are the bee's knees.

 

[bianchigirl]

Personally, I don't see that usage of blood doping has declined - but I'm willing to bet it's been refined and that Armstrong won't be paying Ferrari top whack on an exclusive prepatore's contract unless he sorts out all those pesky logistics for him.

What you need to take into account BPC is that a) most doping takes place OOC - the benefit is from the increased capacity to train and recover and b) most riders get a top up on the rest day when they are free to do as they please (and can you imagine the possibilities on a transfer?). You seem to assume that all blood doping takes place in competition which misses the point of the methodology, the logistics, the efficacy and the frequency.

 

[Race Radio]

It's a lesson to others here. Stick to the issue and don't get side tracked by doing pointless trolling.

Amazing. Maybe this guy is better then JeffVader.

 

[Martinello]

Sorry if I am repeating what somebody else already wrote but I skipped a few pages in this thread, reading through all the trolling accusations would simply take forever.

The logistics of doping, especially during the GT's:
Epo gets injected subcutaneously and can be done by the rider himself. He basically just need to collect from his "pusher" and take the stuff.
Testosterone is usually applied as a cream or patch, again, very easy for the rider to administer by himself.

The blood transfusion is the tricky part.
First of all there is the issue with handling and identification. You don't want to infuse somebody else's blood. Anaphylactic or allergic reactions can occur as it did with Marzano. Even worse, you could fail a test for homologous blood doping.

Next, the rider usually does not have the skills to insert the IV by himself. Having inserted a few thousand IV-lines myself, I can say, that it takes some training. There is a learning curve of approximately 30-40 IVs for a paramedic/nurse/med student, before they get it right in the easy to average case.
Then add the limit amount of veins available for puncture (you can't really the arms/hands, needle marks are bad for business) and the less than optimal working conditions of a hotel room.

Luckily, GT riders are skinny fellows, so it will usually be possible to insert the IV in the foot. If not, then you're bound for an abdominal vein or the upper thigh. As a last resort, a vein on the arms can be used but you risk haematomas if you're not careful when inserting the needle or you risk subcutaneous extravasation of the blood. In either case you leave some nasty tell-tale marks, which are hard to cover up the next day.

Then you need to be comfy with the infusion itself, getting the lines connected etc. etc.

All this needs to be done in a hurry and in a stressful environment.

So delivery of the blood doping during i.e. the Tour requires not only getting the blood bag from the clinic to the hotel without heating it. It also requires skilled personnel to infuse the the stuff in a hurry under suboptimal conditions.

 

[poupou]

Is there many difference with a saline injection? Willy Voest explained that they did them in less than 20mn just before an hct check.

 

[Martinello]

Is there many difference with a saline injection? Willy Voest explained that they did them in less than 20mn just before an hct check.

Ideally, you need a bigger bore IV for the blood (higher viscosity). You could use a pressure bag to increase infusion speed but that's extra logistics.

Also, IV infusions (saline, glucose) were frowned less upon in the days of Willy Voet. Most teams have an 'ethics code' prohibiting IV fluids. This means that they have to be careful not to leave any marks on the riders.

If you want to establish a good reputation amongst your clients, you better not screw up on the infusions, as it was the case with Manzano.

So bottom line: don't let amateurs fiddle with your blood and the infusions. There's simply too much at stake - performance, health issue, non-negative tests etc.