Male 100 Meter Sprinters

[runninboy]

What you actually said was:



Yes, he certainly slowed up in the last 40m.

However, his time was 20.08. Which isn't one of the fastest ever as claimed. The 200th fastest time ever is 20.00 (IAAF rankings don't go lower I'm afraid). 69 different people have run that fast.

And while it would have been good enough for silver in 2005, it wouldn't have got a medal in 2004,2006,2007 or 2009.

Very true there are quite a few runners who can approach that time.

This thread amuses me as a runner. While yes there are alot of dope cheats especially lately The thing RUNNERS know about is the history of the sport. Records always go in spurts, alot of records broken then for years nothing happens. Then people destroy the records, then there is another lull.
Part of this is attributal to competition.
Part of it is attributed to coaching. Coaching goes in cycles, certain wisdom prevails and then someone comes up with a brilliant idea from a few decades before when they were running.
For instance right now high cadence is the trend, alot of crap as filtered over from cyclings increased coverage, Commentators talk about getting in the"draft" of the " peloton" in distance events at 12 miles an hour where because of leg kick you cant be within three feet roughly of the guy in front of you.
Anyway stride length should depend on your natural running style, height, and individual build and strength. John Woodruff was world record holder and won the gold medal in the 36 olympics. He had a very long stride, much longer than athletes would be allowed to use today.
His times as a freshman in college would be comparable to the best freshman today. 75 years LATER!
No artificial surface(i could go on about the advantages & lack of progress because of these surfaces but won't)
No computer, no film to study, so primitive training. hell you should have seen the shoes they races in let alone trained in.

So when you talk about how it must be dope to improve i leaps and bounds.
WTF?
Yes alot of dopers in sprints, guys are much more heavily muscled in those events today. But there were guys under 10 in the hundred meters in 1968. THREE IN ONE RACE. Bob Hayes is widely believed to have a relay split where he showed speed comparable to Bolt back in the early 60's. No drugs just a phenomenal individual.

But you guys keep talking about drugs and ignoring the history of athletics. It took years and years to break four minutes for the mile something that was thought beyond the possibilities of human athletics. Then one decade later, three american high school kids had accomplished the feat , one of them a pathetic kid with allergies who lowered his time from 5:38 to sub four minutes in less than 3 years.
and he wasn"t on drugs.
Remarkably after his record it took roughly four decades for another kid to match his mark.
Again with all this high falutin training , better tracks, better equipment, etc etc etc

You guys should stick to cycling doping because i think running is a whole different ballgame.
Have a nice day

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Welcome back.
Track and field is likely just as bad as cycling. However, since I have no first hand knowledge of doping in either, I'll keep my comments to myself.

Well you made a comment already.

Track and Field ARE just as bad or worse than cycling. I have first hand knowledge regarding running but the cycling ….not so much…just what a read with positive tests etc.

@ the original post…..Marion Jones never was busted. Additionally the out of competition testing for some of these guys is embarrassing.

 

[Polish]

It is not about the dope...

You guys should stick to cycling doping because i think running is a whole different ballgame.
Have a nice day

100 years from now the times of Bolt and Pantani will seem slow.
Amateurs will be performing at the levels of todays top pros.

And it is not just Track and Cycling, but all Pro Sports steadily get better - marching to the tenets of Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest, Dr Demming's "Continuous Improvement", and D1CK's "Feed the Warrior".

Steady improvements punctuated every so often by a generational "outlier", a mutant, a truly superb athlete whose records will take longer to top.

But someday Joltin Joes hit streak will be topped, UCONN's too.
Maybe even Lance's 7 TdFs IN A ROW will be topped.
Although I doubt that one. Alberto is having problems getting 2 in a row lol.

 

[The Hitch]

What you actually said was:



Yes, he certainly slowed up in the last 40m.

However, his time was 20.08. Which isn't one of the fastest ever as claimed. The 200th fastest time ever is 20.00 (IAAF rankings don't go lower I'm afraid). 69 different people have run that fast.

And while it would have been good enough for silver in 2005, it wouldn't have got a medal in 2004,2006,2007 or 2009.

I was talking about the 100m, not the 200m. He did the 100m seimfinal in 09 at 9.89, which would have been sufficient for gold in Barcelona 92 and every olympics before that one. It would have been suficient for silver in Atlanta and Sydney.

Hope that clears up any other misinterpretations with that sentence

But someday Joltin Joes hit streak will be topped, UCONN's too.
Maybe even Lance's 7 TdFs IN A ROW will be topped.
Although I doubt that one. Alberto is having problems getting 2 in a row lol.

There are far bigger potential achievments in cycling than winning 7 tdfs. Dont treat it as if its the key to greatness in our sport. Winning 1 event as many times in a row lol. Give me 5 tdfs and 3 giros over a time period of 20 years, any day of the week over 7 tdfs in a row.

 

[BotanyBay]

Someone wrote:

100 years from now the times of Bolt and Pantani will seem slow.
Amateurs will be performing at the levels of todays top pros.

In 1965, people thought we'd be living in places like this by 2011:

 

[Mambo95]

I was talking about the 100m, not the 200m. He did the 100m seimfinal in 09 at 9.89, which would have been sufficient for gold in Barcelona 92 and every olympics before that one. It would have been suficient for silver in Atlanta and Sydney.

Hope that clears up any other misinterpretations with that sentence

It's still only the 95th best time ever, matched or bettered by 22 other runners.

It didn't look like a jog to me. Sure, he relaxed a bit, but that's really doesn't slow you down much.

So when you said 'sufficient to win gold in most WCs and Olympics', you actually meant no Olympics since 1992 and only three of the 12 Worlds.

It wasn't quite the extraordinary feat that you painted it as.

 

[The Hitch]

It's still only the 95th best time ever, matched or bettered by 22 other runners.

It didn't look like a jog to me. Sure, he relaxed a bit, but that's really doesn't slow you down much.

So when you said 'sufficient to win gold in most WCs and Olympics', you actually meant no Olympics since 1992 and only three of the 12 Worlds.

It wasn't quite the extraordinary feat that you painted it as.

Yes what a coincidence. It would have been sufficient at every olympics up to the epo era

96th fastest ever is still some achievment for a prep run done 4 hours before the world final.

The fact that it would have been sufficient to beat a doped Carl Lewis in Seol says it was actually a VERY extraordinary achievment.

 

[Polyarmour]

Great thread. After reading the arguments I'm still not sure what to think. Remember the normal curve? In terms of runners, 99.7% of the population will fall within the +/-3 sigma distribution, but there exist certain individuals who are out at the 4 sigma, 5 sigma or even 6 sigma limits. Maybe Bolt is one of these people? They would have always been there but 30 years ago the world's population was 4.5 billion. Now it's 7 billion. 30 years ago you ran for fun and became a plumber, now you run to be a multi millionnaire. Isn't it natural that we should be finding more of these talented (high sigma) athletes?

However I will still be a bit wary of him.

And it is not just Track and Cycling, but all Pro Sports steadily get better - marching to the tenets of Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest, Dr Demming's "Continuous Improvement", and D1CK's "Feed the Warrior".

Darwinian Theory would only be applicable if the rest of us slow pokes were killed off before reproducing due to our inability to outrun mortal danger. Since this doesn't happen and couch potatoes the world over are reproducing with gay abandon courtesy of social welfare, I don't expect "survival of the fittest" to cause an increase in our running speed.

 

[Merckx index]

The case against Bolt is a lot like that against LA. It's not just that he has won against a field of known dopers, but that he has dominated this field. The poster who claimed that there are quantum leaps in certain events should keep in mind that two quantum leaps are needed here. The first one is simply for a clean athlete to dominate clean competition. That may have happened occasionally in the past, but it's not very common. The second quantum jump is for a clean athlete to dominate doped competition. There is no very convincing evidence that that has ever happened, unless one really believes Bolt is clean. If he is, he has arguably accomplished something with no precedent ever in the history of sports.

World records in these events generally aren't set in steady progressive increments. They make sporadic big leaps forward.

There are only a handful of events where records last more than a few years. The rule is clearly that they are broken regularly and incrementally. Michael Phelps is as dominant athlete as there has ever been, but his records have involved incremental improvement, and haven't lasted long. Frequently they are broken by other swimmers. He is unusual mostly in being world class in three different strokes, not in his relative performance in any one of them relative to the field.

The events mentioned in T&F are to some extent a matter of chance, particularly in events involving jumping. Beamon never came close to his record leap before or after, so it was not as though he the athlete--as opposed to a single performance--was far above the rest. Though Carl Lewis never broke that record, or Powell's, he was clearly a better long jumper than either. He exceeded 28' far more than anyone else, and even aging in 1992, he beat Powell.

Keep in mind that when an event is performed hundred of times by world class athletes, statistical fluctuations happen. Beamon's record was clearly in that category, and so were some of the other long-lasting records you mention. If they were not, the guy setting the record would have had a history of multiple performances better than anything managed even once by any of his rivals.

But Bolt has done that. His performance is not a fluctuation, he is consistently far better than the competition. Granted there is as yet no smoking gun, one has to ignore a lot of history not to be very suspicious.

 

[Polish]

Give me 5 tdfs and 3 giros over a time period of 20 years, any day of the week over 7 tdfs in a row.

Your imaginary palamares are plenty impressive.

But an actual streak of 7 TdFs in a row is a bigger accomplishment lol.
That actual record will stand for 50 years at least I bet.
Hard to break, though many will try.

In 1965, people thought we'd be living in places like this by 2011:
(insert groovy picture here)

The World Record for the 100 meters in 1911 was 10.6 secs.
Today, 100 hundred years later, talented and non-doped high school students can run that fast. They just do it.
Next century, a talented high school student (or equivalent) will be beating Bolts 2011 time.

If you want to see a clean world record, watch a fast current day high schooler and pretend it is 1911 lol.
And your great great grand kids can watch a clean high schooler beat Bolt's records...

Non-Doped High School students rock!

 

[runninboy]

Your imaginary palamares are plenty impressive.

But an actual streak of 7 TdFs in a row is a bigger accomplishment lol.
That actual record will stand for 50 years at least I bet.
Hard to break, though many will try.



The World Record for the 100 meters in 1911 was 10.6 secs.
Today, 100 hundred years later, talented and non-doped high school students can run that fast. They just do it.
Next century, a talented high school student (or equivalent) will be beating Bolts 2011 time.

If you want to see a clean world record, watch a fast current day high schooler and pretend it is 1911 lol.
And your great great grand kids can watch a clean high schooler beat Bolt's records...

Non-Doped High School students rock!

Not to mention 21 year olds who break or tie FOUR world records in the span of only 45 MINUTES!
JESSE OWENS

100 yd dash 9.4 seconds
220(201.meters)20.3 seconds
220 low hurdles 22.6 seconds(first under 23)
long jump 26 feet 8.25 inches

Now his long jump record stood for 25 years or so not sure about the others. The next year he ran 10.2 to set the 100 meter world record.
That record stood for twenty years.
10.2 against what bolt did might not look impressive
but when you start thinking about how there were no starting blocks back then you had to dig a friggin hole in the track and the track was nowhere near as fast as todays artificial surfaces.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
75 years ago a guy dug two holes in a track for starting blocks in a ****ty track and came within two tenths of what the reigning world champion ran in his 2008 Olympic semifinal heat, wearing what amounted to dress shoes with track spikes attached for shoes.
ask Bolt how fast he could run in Jesse Owens shoes on a dirt track.
I doubt he could break 10. In fact i do not believe there has ever been a sub 10 on anything other than an artificial surface so 10.2 by a kid in lousy shoes 75 years ago doesnt look so much different than what Bolt does today.
MAYBE JESSE OWENS WAS DOPED!!!!
4 WORLD RECORDS IN 45 MINUTES PEOPLE!!!!
You people are amazed at a semifinal & world record final in 1 day pleaase....
learn your history people

 

[Hugh Januss]

Great thread. After reading the arguments I'm still not sure what to think. Remember the normal curve? In terms of runners, 99.7% of the population will fall within the +/-3 sigma distribution, but there exist certain individuals who are out at the 4 sigma, 5 sigma or even 6 sigma limits. Maybe Bolt is one of these people? They would have always been there but 30 years ago the world's population was 4.5 billion. Now it's 7 billion. 30 years ago you ran for fun and became a plumber, now you run to be a multi millionnaire. Isn't it natural that we should be finding more of these talented (high sigma) athletes?

However I will still be a bit wary of him.



Darwinian Theory would only be applicable if the rest of us slow pokes were killed off before reproducing due to our inability to outrun mortal danger. Since this doesn't happen and couch potatoes the world over are reproducing with gay abandon courtesy of social welfare, I don't expect "survival of the fittest" to cause an increase in our running speed.

If they are gay, how are they reproducing?
Darwinian Theory also requires multi hundreds of years to see real demonstrable changes in a species.

And to Runninboy, history would certainly indicate to me that the guys making obscene amounts of money to run real fast are using any method at their disposal to "be the best that they could be".

 

[Polish]

Darwinian Theory would only be applicable if the rest of us slow pokes were killed off before reproducing due to our inability to outrun mortal danger. Since this doesn't happen and couch potatoes the world over are reproducing with gay abandon courtesy of social welfare, I don't expect "survival of the fittest" to cause an increase in our running speed.

I was thinking "survival of the fittest" in a competitive sense, not really a life or death struggle with the surviving runners growing more/less toes lol.

History shows that in a hundred years or so an undoped amateur runner will match Bolt. How do you explain that?

I would argue an "evolution" of training, techniques, technologies, etc etc

http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

If they are gay, how are they reproducing?
Darwinian Theory also requires multi hundreds of years to see real demonstrable changes in a species.

Sometimes "evolution" can happen quicker than Darwin thought:

"In just a few decades the 5-inch-long (13-centimeter-long) lizards have developed a completely new gut structure, larger heads, and a harder bite, researchers say." (Hey - sounds like Lance...edit)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

 

[stephens]

I think it's a sad way to go through life, but clearly most of you here agree with the following statement: Human athletes have already become as great (naturally) as they will ever be capable of becoming and we should just close all the record books now.

 

[skidmark]

Yes what a coincidence. It would have been sufficient at every olympics up to the epo era

I'm really asking because I have little idea, but what benefit does EPO give to 100m sprinters? I've been under the impression from other threads I've read that it really would benefit distance runners more, and sprinters very little.

 

[Nederick]

I'm really asking because I have little idea, but what benefit does EPO give to 100m sprinters? I've been under the impression from other threads I've read that it really would benefit distance runners more, and sprinters very little.

As already mentioned, epo use during training phase allows for more sustained quality training. Chambers talks about this in his book.

 

[Nick777]

Your imaginary palamares are plenty impressive.

But an actual streak of 7 TdFs in a row is a bigger accomplishment lol.
That actual record will stand for 50 years at least I bet.
Hard to break, though many will try.



The World Record for the 100 meters in 1911 was 10.6 secs.
Today, 100 hundred years later, talented and non-doped high school students can run that fast. They just do it.
Next century, a talented high school student (or equivalent) will be beating Bolts 2011 time.

If you want to see a clean world record, watch a fast current day high schooler and pretend it is 1911 lol.
And your great great grand kids can watch a clean high schooler beat Bolt's records...

Non-Doped High School students rock!

Unlike you to pull something out of your A$$

According to the Science of Sport guys, Bolt is approaching the human limit.

In the 100m, Bolt came along and blew away the record books, but he hasn't done anything that mathematical models suggested would be impossible - they have the record limit at 9.48s, based on hundreds of years of data. He just took us closer to it long before anyone thought it might happen

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/11/limit-of-human-performance-how-much.html

 

[Mambo95]

It's not just that he has won against a field of known dopers, but that he has dominated this field.

<snip>

There are only a handful of events where records last more than a few years. The rule is clearly that they are broken regularly and incrementally.

Two points, second one first.

You quoted my post but you don't seem to have read it.

Here again is a list of records that lasted over a decade:

200m Pietro Menna (WR lasted 17 years) Michael Johnson (12 years)
400m Lee Evans (20 years)
800m Seb Coe (16 years)
110m Hurdles Colin Jackson (13 years)
400m Hurdles Kevin Young (18 years and counting)
Long Jump Bob Beamon (23 years), Mike Powell (19 years and counting)
Triple Jump Jonathon Edwards (15 years and counting)
High Jump Javier Sotomayor (17 years and counting)
Pole vault Sergei Bubka (16 years and counting)

That's all the sprints and all the jumps, not a handful. There's no frequent and incremental breaking going on there. The only one missing is the 100m, but I think that may now have it's long lasting record holder.

(You can bang on about Phelps all you like, but that's a completely different sport).


The second point. How can he beat all those dopers? Well here's an idea you won't see anywhere else on this forum - maybe the drugs don't work (for men). Or at least maybe they make far less difference than many people believe.

After all look, at East Germany. They were more drugged up than any team before or since. In the women's sprints they dominated, won almost everything -the drugs clearly worked. But the men? Well, they didn't really make any impression at all. The drugs didn't seem to help them much.

 

[BotanyBay]

I think it's a sad way to go through life, but clearly most of you here agree with the following statement: Human athletes have already become as great (naturally) as they will ever be capable of becoming and we should just close all the record books now.

I think as nutrition improves and disease decreases, we'll see a slight upward progression (to a point). But nothing natural in the current day and age adequately explains people who smash records the way that people still seem to be doing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

USA Track and Field

Ever since the whole Marion Jones story I've come to the conclusion that USA Track and Field is as suspect and Pat and the UCI. An entire career of doping and never a single positive. Really?

So, Track and Field is now looking the other way too. As the UCI knows, It makes a great show.

 

[The Hitch]

After all look, at East Germany. They were more drugged up than any team before or since. In the women's sprints they dominated, won almost everything -the drugs clearly worked. But the men? Well, they didn't really make any impression at all. The drugs didn't seem to help them much.

But bare in mind that the drugs during the time of a divided Germany were by all accounts significantly inferior to the ones available right now.

Amphetamines to epo is like the Cipressa to the Zoncolan.

And from what ive heard, the US was doping their men a lot as well (though i dont know exactly when that started) so i dont think it was just East Germany, hence the advatnages are minimised if others are doping too.

 

[fujisst]

Still goin' strong on this lame thread...

Go points some fingers where they're more appropriately placed - swimmers...Y'all will find more credibility in your speculation. Afterall, last I checked, top to bottom event-wise, swimming was much more an endurance sport than track and field...carry on, I'm sure...

 

[Mambo95]

But bare in mind that the drugs during the time of a divided Germany were by all accounts significantly inferior to the ones available right now.

Amphetamines to epo is like the Cipressa to the Zoncolan.

And from what ive heard, the US was doping their men a lot as well (though i dont know exactly when that started) so i dont think it was just East Germany, hence the advatnages are minimised if others are doping too.

Were the drugs that much inferior. The all-time lists still feature a lot of East German names around the top (alongside Jones and Flo-Jo).

And were the US only doping men and not women? And when the US missed the 1980 Olympics, why did the East German men still not make an impression while the women cleaned-up.

(Amphetamines & EPO - that's cycling, not sprinting. Steroids are the issue in sprinting, and they've been around a long time and haven't changed much).

 

[Benotti69]

Bolt does seem to be an exceptional athlete and doesn't appear to be doped up, time will tell. I'm glad I saw the 2009 finals, maybe we'll never see that again.

unbelievable to think that people believe that Bolt is PED free.

 

[Polish]

Unlike you to pull something out of your A$$

According to the Science of Sport guys, Bolt is approaching the human limit.

In the 100m, Bolt came along and blew away the record books, but he hasn't done anything that mathematical models suggested would be impossible - they have the record limit at 9.48s, based on hundreds of years of data. He just took us closer to it long before anyone thought it might happen

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/11/limit-of-human-performance-how-much.html

Oh, the Sports Science guys have determined the limit is 9.48s.
Ok then, there you have it lol.

BTW, ancient Mayan Scientists put the limit at Bolt's time - assuming the record holds until December 2012.

And Scientists 100 years ago would have considered 9.480s impossibly fast, but would have shrugged their shoulders and said "it's all relative".

And the Scientists of the Future? When wonder drugs and miracle advances in genetic engineering have increased a human lifespan to 149 years and there are 45 year olds routinely racing the most prestigious bike race on Earth (China Global Tour of Happiness). Will the 100m human limit still be set at 4.8s?

Here again is a list of records that lasted over a decade:

200m Pietro Menna (WR lasted 17 years) Michael Johnson (12 years)
400m Lee Evans (20 years)
800m Seb Coe (16 years)
110m Hurdles Colin Jackson (13 years)
400m Hurdles Kevin Young (18 years and counting)
Long Jump Bob Beamon (23 years), Mike Powell (19 years and counting)
Triple Jump Jonathon Edwards (15 years and counting)
High Jump Javier Sotomayor (17 years and counting)
Pole vault Sergei Bubka (16 years and counting)

Jesse Owens held the Long Jump World Record for many many years before Bob Beamon was able to top it.

These days top High Schoolers routinely beat Jesse Owens World Record.