Male 100 Meter Sprinters

[Monte Zoncolon]

If cycling news want to delete this thread immediately in case of litigation please proceed. This is not a thread intended to make unsubstantiated claims against Athletes doping in the Men's 100 Meters. But merely to pose question's about the legitimacy of the extraterrestrial times that these Guys are now running on such a regular basis.

The abuse of drugs in Cycling is on par with the use of Drugs on Athletics.

Ben Johnson has said that.....though he did not name any names......the times the top guy's are running, are not possible to sustain without the use of Performance Enhancing Drugs.

Ben Johnson would Know. He of course, subsequent to the 1988 Olympic Games
was stripped of his 100 Meter title after testing positive for the banned substance stanozolol. His new world record of 9.79 was rescinded.

Tim Montgomery set a new world record in 2002 of 9.78 second's. Surpassing Maurice Green's record of 9.79 seconds. But this time of 9.78 second's was rescinded because he was found guilty of using performance enhancing drugs.

In 2006 Justin Gatlin equaled Asafa Powell's world record of 9.77 second's but his time was later annulled because he returned a positive test for Testosterone.

Usain Bolt currently holds the world record with a time of 9.58 second's. Approximately 2 meters quicker than the above mentioned Athlete's who have tested positive.

Tyson Gay hold's the second quickest time in history ( an american record ) 9.69 second's. One meter quicker than both Johnson and Montgomery's 9.79.

Asafa Powell has run the third fastest time in history. 9.72 second's. He also holds the record for the most sub 10 second 100 meter times. 65 times in total.

How are these three Guy's Bolt, Gay and Powell evading testing positive for performance enhancing Drug's.

 

[TexPat]

Welcome back.
Track and field is likely just as bad as cycling. However, since I have no first hand knowledge of doping in either, I'll keep my comments to myself.

 

[The Hitch]

I have no idea how they keep evading the testers. Probably the same way Justin Gatlin won 2 wc's and an olympic gold, evading the testers, before finaly being caught in 06.

What i do know is that they are doping. Especially Bolt but especially Gay. Guy cant crack 9.80 (apart from with heavy wind). Then i see him at the WC saying he thinks he can match Bolt. And he goes and gets 9.71.

Magic i guess

The equivalent i suppose would be Contador getting 38 minutes on Alpe d huez and winning, then coming back 2 years later and getting 36 minutes but coming second.

Bare in mind that if you took Usain Bolt out of the picture, the second best sprinter of all time would be, ummm Tyson Gay. Second fastest 100m 3rd fastest 200m and second best 100m 200m combo at an event. All behind Usain Bolt.

Not long ago the 9.8 barrier seemed unbreakable, and all the guys who got under 9.9 were doping.

Now Bolt is getting 9.9 during the qualifiers.

Actually i remember the first 100m major final i watched was Paris World champs when Kim Collins won gold with 10.07.

At the last olympics the entire final beat that score. At the last WC 7 out of 10 did. I think there have been some drastic improvements in the last few years.

1 or 2 guys improving is a maybe. But the entire final of 09 beating the entire final of 03.

No theres something more at work here.

 

[The Hitch]

Look at this.

(bolded are times under 10 seconds.


2005 World Championships Helsinki

100m FINAL

1. United States Justin Gatlin, United States 9.88 s (SB)
2. Jamaica Michael Frater, Jamaica 10.05 s
3. Saint Kitts and Nevis Kim Collins, Saint Kitts and Nevis 10.05 s
4. Portugal Francis Obikwelu, Portugal 10.07 s
5. Jamaica Dwight Thomas, Jamaica 10.09 s
6. United States Leonard Scott, United States 10.13 s
7. Trinidad and Tobago Marc Burns, Trinidad and Tobago 10.14 s
8. Ghana Aziz Zakari, Ghana 10.20 s



2003 World Championships Paris

100m FINAL

Med 1.png Kim Collins (SKN) 10.07
Med 2.png Darrel Brown (TRI) 10.08
Med 3.png Darren Campbell (GBR) 10.08
4. Bernard Williams (USA) 10.13
5. Deji Aliu (NGR) 10.21
6. Uchenna Emedolu (NGR)


2009 World championships Berlin

100 m SEMIfinasl ( the top guys take it EASYIER on this as they are saving themselves for the final)

Semifinal 1

1 6 Usain Bolt Jamaica 9.89 Q
2 4 Daniel Bailey Antigua and Barbuda 9.96 Q
3 3 Darvis Patton United States 9.98

Semifinal 2

1 5 Tyson Gay United States 9.93 Q
2 4 Asafa Powell Jamaica 9.95 Q
3 3 Richard ThompsonsTrinidad and Tobago 9.98

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

The equivalent i suppose would be Contador getting 38 minutes on Alpe d huez and winning, then coming back 2 years later and getting 36 minutes but coming second.



No theres something more at work here.

Yea I agree absolutely. I don't think that there is random drug testing in Jamaica. Which may have something to do with evading positive tests.

The Jamaican sprinter's are now winning more medal's on the world level than the American's. Very suspicious indeed. The balance of power has changed in both men's and women's sprinting.

One thing for sure. It is very evident that these athletes are doping.

But they are getting away with it, somehow.

The money on offer is Huge. Set a person up for life.

On the subject of Alberto Contador. His winning time on Alpe D'Huez in this Year's Dauphine was 45 Minutes, + seconds?. Along way's of pantani's EPO record.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

Look at this.

(bolded are times under 10 seconds.


2005 World Championships Helsinki

100m FINAL

1. United States Justin Gatlin, United States 9.88 s (SB)
2. Jamaica Michael Frater, Jamaica 10.05 s
3. Saint Kitts and Nevis Kim Collins, Saint Kitts and Nevis 10.05 s
4. Portugal Francis Obikwelu, Portugal 10.07 s
5. Jamaica Dwight Thomas, Jamaica 10.09 s
6. United States Leonard Scott, United States 10.13 s
7. Trinidad and Tobago Marc Burns, Trinidad and Tobago 10.14 s
8. Ghana Aziz Zakari, Ghana 10.20 s



2003 World Championships Paris

100m FINAL

Med 1.png Kim Collins (SKN) 10.07
Med 2.png Darrel Brown (TRI) 10.08
Med 3.png Darren Campbell (GBR) 10.08
4. Bernard Williams (USA) 10.13
5. Deji Aliu (NGR) 10.21
6. Uchenna Emedolu (NGR)


2009 World championships Berlin

100 m SEMIfinasl ( the top guys take it EASYIER on this as they are saving themselves for the final)

Semifinal 1

1 6 Usain Bolt Jamaica 9.89 Q
2 4 Daniel Bailey Antigua and Barbuda 9.96 Q
3 3 Darvis Patton United States 9.98

Semifinal 2

1 5 Tyson Gay United States 9.93 Q
2 4 Asafa Powell Jamaica 9.95 Q
3 3 Richard ThompsonsTrinidad and Tobago 9.98

These result's sure do paint a rather telling picture.

 

[Mambo95]

The type of track makes as much difference as anything.

Bolt's been seen as a once in a lifetime phenomenon since he was a 15 year old schoolboy. He's not doing anything that people thought he wasn't capable of back then.

 

[The Hitch]

The type of track makes as much difference as anything.

Bolt's been seen as a once in a lifetime phenomenon since he was a 15 year old schoolboy. He's not doing anything that people thought he wasn't capable of back then.

Are you serious. They thought this when he was 15. That he was capable of running the 100m in 9.59 by the age of 23. That he was capable of pushing the boundaries of science and not just beat the fastest times by the fastest people on the best dope, but ANHILATE them.

People saw him capable of that?

People doubted man yet alone Bolt, was capable of breaking 9.7. And yet Bolt has broken 9.6.

THis reminds me of some of Polish's stuff. People predicted Lance to be a phenomenon when he was a teen, bla bla bla. IF he got 9.95 id grant that to you. But getting 9.59, when Justin Gatlin, the worlds fastest man doped to the gills was 0.3 seconds slower. As one of Hogs articles put it, that doesnt pass the straight face test.

Oh and if the track makes so much difference, well then consider that Bolts 9.59 was on the Berlin track, one considered to be quite SLOW.

 

[Mambo95]

Are you serious. They thought this when he was 15. That he was capable of running the 100m in 9.59 by the age of 23. That he was capable of pushing the boundaries of science and not just beat the fastest times by the fastest people on the best dope, but ANHILATE them.

People saw him capable of that?

Yes, they saw him capable of that.

Here's an article from when he was 16: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics-the-boy-they-call-lightning-is-frightening-536129.html

Here he is becoming the youngest ever World Junior champion (in any event) aged 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm86eEVukiI

Aged 16 he was ranked no.9 in the World at 200m.
Aged 17, he was no.2

He been seen as very,very special for many years now.


(Also a slow track in 2009 is faster than a fast track in 2003)

Exactly have much improvement do you think drugs make? Dwain Chambers isn't much slower now than when he was drugged up (PB 9.99 v 9.87)
And how do you think they work? (Note: Usain Bolt has a reputation as a relatively lazy trainer).

 

[Granville57]

Yet another reason why I love The Clinic.
I have to admit, at first glance I thought, Why is this in a cycling forum?
But it is has proved to be fascinating. Great exchanges. Truly.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, they saw him capable of that.

Here's an article from when he was 16: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics-the-boy-they-call-lightning-is-frightening-536129.html

Here he is becoming the youngest ever World Junior champion (in any event) aged 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm86eEVukiI

Aged 16 he was ranked no.9 in the World at 200m.
Aged 17, he was no.2

He been seen as very,very special for many years now.


(Also a slow track in 2009 is faster than a fast track in 2003)

Exactly have much improvement do you think drugs make? Dwain Chambers isn't much slower now than when he was drugged up (PB 9.99 v 9.87)
And how do you think they work? (Note: Usain Bolt has a reputation as a relatively lazy trainer).

Nowhere in what you posted is there even a hint that they feel his capable of breaking the scientific boundaries with his speed.

Theres a difference between being special and being by far and away the fastest of all time.

That article just says hes fast and might win a medal. Big deal. And the video shows him winning a big race while young. Qualities shared by Armstrong and Valverde if i may add.

Have you even payed attention to what Bolt has achieved since? He hasnt just won a medal and challenged Johnsons time. He has in a period of a year gone from 200m prospect - 19.93 Osaka WC 2007, to superman - 9.69 and 19.31 Beijing Olympics 2008.

He ran/jogged his semi final in 2009 in a speed sufficient for a gold medal at most olympic and world championship races. He was messing around and it was still one of the fastest ever.

In america, a land of great sprintes, the fastest man the countries extremely well funded athletics department, could find out of a population of 300 million was Justin Gatlin. They took him, trained him, doped him to the gills, and out comes Usain Bolt and trumps his best time by 0.26

0.26 seconds in spritning. Not over amateurs but over the best in the world. Thats like beating Armstrong at the Tour by 10 minutes.



And how do you know Chambers isnt drugged. This is afterall a man who claimed it was impossible to compete without drugs. That they give such a big advantage.

 

[M Sport]

"It is the responsibility of the JAAA to ensure that this new-found treasure receives nurturing and protection," he wrote. "Usain Bolt is the most phenomenal sprinter ever produced by this island and history will judge them harshly if they fail."

That said that when he was 16. Jeez, no pressure then eh.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Bolt is most certainly the most outstanding sprint talent ever, but he took a massive leap forward in 2008 which was emulated by half a million other jamaicans. That's kinda fishy.

Chambers was supposedly clean pre-BALCO (I believe that's what Conte said anyway) and if so didn't improve by more than 0.1s. His pre-BALCO PB was 9.97 and I think he ran 9.86 before getting caught. He was a 10.0x sprinter at 18-19. Perhaps a poor responder?

 

[ricara]

What drugs are they using?

We know that EPO and similar (CERA, blood transfusions) works for endurance events. The consensus is that those drugs don't help much for sprinting.

So what drugs are these track sprinters taking? And the obvious questions is, are the cycling sprinters also taking these drugs?

What can explain Petacchi's incredible comeback at last year's Tour besides drugs? We know that every sprinter in the field has "asthma" with TUE's for salbutamol and so forth. But I don't think that is what the track sprinters are taking. Thanks for your input.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Nowhere in what you posted is there even a hint that they feel his capable of breaking the scientific boundaries with his speed.

Theres a difference between being special and being by far and away the fastest of all time.

That article just says hes fast and might win a medal. Big deal. And the video shows him winning a big race while young. Qualities shared by Armstrong and Valverde if i may add.

There's also a difference between being special and being by far and away the fastest of all time at every age from age 15 (and probably earlier) and up. You are grossly underestimating Bolt's talent by comparing him to Valverde and Lance.

He hasn't broken any "scientific boundaries". That's a ludicrous statement!
It's also clear that you didn't watch the 2009 worlds...

 

[Nederick]

Chamber's book is an interesting read. If you buy into it, then all BALCO gave him was a lot of stress about not getting caught, more injuries through his time on that program, and all for 0.1 seconds or so. And at the end of it shunned by team mates, the british athletics establishment and the press.
Anyway, his book is a pretty good advertisment for the (substantial and more enduring than the glory days) downsides to heading down that path.

Hitch, I'm interested when you suggest that Bolt defies scientific boundaries. I'm trying not to be smart here, just curious what studies are out there?

 

[Mambo95]

Nowhere in what you posted is there even a hint that they feel his capable of breaking the scientific boundaries with his speed.

Theres a difference between being special and being by far and away the fastest of all time.

That article just says hes fast and might win a medal. Big deal. And the video shows him winning a big race while young. Qualities shared by Armstrong and Valverde if i may add.

Have you even payed attention to what Bolt has achieved since? He hasnt just won a medal and challenged Johnsons time. He has in a period of a year gone from 200m prospect - 19.93 Osaka WC 2007, to superman - 9.69 and 19.31 Beijing Olympics 2008.

He ran/jogged his semi final in 2009 in a speed sufficient for a gold medal at most olympic and world championship races. He was messing around and it was still one of the fastest ever.

In america, a land of great sprintes, the fastest man the countries extremely well funded athletics department, could find out of a population of 300 million was Justin Gatlin. They took him, trained him, doped him to the gills, and out comes Usain Bolt and trumps his best time by 0.26

0.26 seconds in spritning. Not over amateurs but over the best in the world. Thats like beating Armstrong at the Tour by 10 minutes.



And how do you know Chambers isnt drugged. This is afterall a man who claimed it was impossible to compete without drugs. That they give such a big advantage.

The article is tipping a 16 year old boy to win a medal at the World Championships, pointing out that he was already running faster than Johnson did until he was 20. Doesn't that seem a little extraordinary?

Now the journalist is too sensible to be making big predictions, but you can still see posts on the Track and Field News forum from 2003 discussing whether Bolt will break Michael Johnson's records (he did 200m & 400m back then).

This isn't someone who is merely 'fast'. It's someone who is seen as potentially the greatest ever seen

His improvement from 2007 onwards is largely down to being injury free (he had plenty of problems from 2003-2007)

Now maybe he is on drugs, but at what point did he feel he needed to take them? There's never been a point in his career when he would have thought 'I'm just not good enough'.

Sometimes, in all walks of life, someone comes along who is just that much better than everyone else. But if you automatically see drugs as the answer to everything, then you'll miss that.

Why was the nauseating pious Jonathon Edwards so much better at triple jump - drugs! Why is Bradman's batting average so much better than everyone else ever - drugs! Why is the music of Mozart or the drama of Shakespeare still unparallelled - drugs! Drugs, drugs, drugs. It's the only possible answer to you, isn't it?

 

[D-Queued]

<Sigh>

Honestly, the only thing missing from Jamaica is a USPS/Disco training camp.

NY Times: no sprinter who trains primarily in Jamaica has tested positive for steroids

... “We love to be dubbed drug free,” the former prime minister Portia Simpson-Miller said.

“Sportsmen and sportswomen inspire the nation,” she added. “It is amazing how they can unite the country and pull all the emotions of people to be successful.”

In the lead up to Beijing 2008, there was a lot of concern about the lack of out-of-competition testing in Jamaica:

Jamaica does not have an independent, out-of-competition testing program for its athletes, nor has it joined the Caribbean Regional Anti-Doping Organization

Victor Conte, of Balco fame:

On December 12, 2007, I advised WADA's **** Pound to routinely send disguised drug testers to Jamaica, and to begin doing so immediately. I had received information about a specific drug supplier - WADA received this person's name, address and phone number - who was allegedly working with elite track athletes. I also explained to Pound the importance of "offseason" testing and that testing at competitions is ineffective. The offseason is when athletes use anabolic steroids in conjunction with intensive weight training and develop the explosive strength base that serves them throughout the competitive season

The IAAF did conduct out-of-competition tests in Jamaica, when there was nobody else to do it. But, it is worth remembering that WADA was set up because the international sport federations had natural conflicts of interest - which we, in cycling, are well familiar with given our example of the UCI.

Jamaica (and other Caribbean coutnries) had no independent anti-doping federation - no USADA equivalent - prior to 2005. This past summer, after a review by WADA, the entire JADCO board was dissolved due to various conflicts of interest:

"The minister just said that based on the review that was done by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), she would like to restructure the board and therefore, she was asking everybody to resign and then she would reappoint those that they wanted to reappoint."

Later, when five athletes returned positives, the 'separate' and 'independent' Jamaica Anti-Doping Disciplinary Panel (appointed by the Jamaican sports Minister Olivia 'Babsy' Grange) cleared all five athletes.

Unlike the infamous study of US teens that showed alarmingly high use of steroids:

Ellen Campbell-Grizzle, the director of the National Council on Drug Abuse, said surveys of Jamaican adults and teenagers showed “0.0000 percent” had used steroids.

Not a single one. Amazing lack of drug abuse from the home of Ganja and the birthplace of Bob Marley.

Dave.

 

[Mambo95]

<Sigh>

Honestly, the only thing missing from Jamaica is a USPS/Disco training camp.

In the lead up to Beijing 2008, there was a lot of concern about the lack of out-of-competition testing in Jamaica:

Victor Conte, of Balco fame:

The IAAF did conduct out-of-competition tests in Jamaica, when there was nobody else to do it. But, it is worth remembering that WADA was set up because the international sport federations had natural conflicts of interest - which we, in cycling, are well familiar with given our example of the UCI.

Jamaica (and other Caribbean coutnries) had no independent anti-doping federation - no USADA equivalent - prior to 2005. This past summer, after a review by WADA, the entire JADCO board was dissolved due to various conflicts of interest:



Later, when five athletes returned positives, the 'separate' and 'independent' Jamaica Anti-Doping Disciplinary Panel (appointed by the Jamaican sports Minister Olivia 'Babsy' Grange) cleared all five athletes.

Unlike the infamous study of US teens that showed alarmingly high use of steroids:

Ellen Campbell-Grizzle, the director of the National Council on Drug Abuse, said surveys of Jamaican adults and teenagers showed “0.0000 percent” had used steroids.

Not a single one. Amazing lack of drug abuse from the home of Ganja and the birthplace of Bob Marley.

Dave.

To be fair to Jamaica, they haven't got any money. The average wage is only US$2700 pa. It's hard to have a comprehensive testing programme when you can't afford to pay for it.

 

[Polish]

Experts predict speeds of 35+mph will be possible someday.
With and without dope I assume...

"The newly published evidence identifies the critical variable imposing the biological limit to running speed, and offers an enticing view of how the biological limits might be pushed back beyond the nearly 28 miles per hour speeds achieved by Bolt to speeds of perhaps 35 or even 40 miles per hour."

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblo...of-3540-mph-may-be-biologically-possible.html


might we see sprints into Bordeaux someday at 50mph+?
.
.
.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, they saw him capable of that.

Here's an article from when he was 16: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics-the-boy-they-call-lightning-is-frightening-536129.html

Here he is becoming the youngest ever World Junior champion (in any event) aged 15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm86eEVukiI

Aged 16 he was ranked no.9 in the World at 200m.
Aged 17, he was no.2

He been seen as very,very special for many years now.

Marion Jones, teenage phenom, Qualified for Olympics at 16....Doper.
Alex Rodriguez, #1 draft pick out of High School.....Doper
Lance Armstrong. Professional Athlete at 16.....Doper.
Barry Bonds, 1st round draft pick......Doper
Jan Ulrich, U23 World Champion......Doper

Being fast, Special, whatever at a young age is no indication of cleanliness.....just saying.

 

[Race Radio]

The mens 100 and the Tour have been perhaps the most doped up competitions in sports. What would anyone on this board say if next year Schleck broke Pantani's record on Alp d'Huez by over a minute? Would anyone think he is clean? Of course not.

That is what Bolt has done to the 100 record. He took one of the doped up records in sports and demolished it. The 200 as well.

 

[blackcat]

<Sigh>
Honestly, the only thing missing from Jamaica is a USPS/Disco training camp.

touche!

lets ask Race Radio if he knows of any ahem, training camps? We know they got the blow, but do they have the quality hookers, oops, table top dancers that Yellow Rose of Austin do?

 

[fujisst]

Oh brother...

here we go AGAIN with that lame of the lamest threads - the let's put it all in perspective thread.

All together now - "Cyclists aren't so bad. Look at what those guys in sport 'X' are doing and getting away with." Fill in your favorite hate-a-sport at the 'X'.
Guess this exercise makes some of you feel better...as I've said a million times, literally, pro cycling needs to focus on looking in the mirror, rather than looking over the fence at someone else's backyard...

A lot of pro cyclists are dirty cheats. Doesn't make them any less so just because others in other sports may be just as dirty...

This thread stinks, and will do nothing to further eradicate pro cycling's dirty little secrets and pervasive culture...

 

[M Sport]

The mens 100 and the Tour have been perhaps the most doped up competitions in sports. What would anyone on this board say if next year Schleck broke Pantani's record on Alp d'Huez by over a minute? Would anyone think he is clean? Of course not.

That is what Bolt has done to the 100 record. He took one of the doped up records in sports and demolished it. The 200 as well.

Playing devils advocate here I don't think that's a fair comparison. To make a comparison against a rampantly EPO fueled Pantani you were need to prove a similar drug existed in previous 100m record holders, but now they were only at best micro dosing on that drug. i.e EPO use was rampant in the mid to late 90's, now at best they can only micro dose on it.

Aside from that your math is wrong. Schleck would need to beat the record by 43 seconds to be a similar comparison, not one minute