Manzano's testimony confirmed...yet again.

[Polish]

Kelme was a fun Team to watch over the many many years of their existence
Developing riders only to have them snatched up by bigger budget teams

That "70's Shower Curtain" kit was the most recognizable in the peloton
Too bad the Team was DOPED TO THE GILLS

For all their doping, however, they still could not win the "Big Dance"....
Escartin got pretty close...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmZQk3EvLvM

 

[Deadlift]

What do you base your theory on that doping doesn't work?

History of performances & results in Tours gone by of heavy honking EPO users which have seen there performances & results drop while doped & being beaten by clean riders. Check the results tables. We can see a classic case of performances dropping while using EPO.

So what do we see???... Riders starting EPO & not winning. Riders being on long term EPO & no continuation of success. That states EPO & doping doesn't work & can't win you a Tour for which Armstrong won 7 times.

 

[Ferminal]

History of performances & results in Tours gone by of heavy honking EPO users which have seen there performances & results drop while doped & being beaten by clean riders. Check the results tables. We can see a classic case of performances dropping while using EPO.

So what do we see???... Riders starting EPO & not winning. Riders being on long term EPO & no continuation of success. That states EPO & doping doesn't work & can't win you a Tour for which Armstrong won 7 times.

Why did Armstrong use EPO in 1999 if he didn't need it?

 

[Deadlift]

Umm, you know that you have not demonstrated this, ya?

The 1997 Tour de France. A doping Bjarne Riis (DEN) Team Telekom 26min' 34sec" down on Jan Ullrich.

Get ready... Riis's EPO success's.... This beats the hell out of training all winter, he was thinking!

1993: 5th Overall, Tour de France
1994: 14th Overall, Tour de France
1995: 3rd Overall, Tour de France
1996: 1st Overall Tour de France

Still Doped to the eyeballs...

1997: 7th Overall, Tour de France
1998: 11th Overall, Tour de France
1999: ?????..

Well you get the idea.... An increase in dope dosage = A drop in performance. This is what history is stating & what you guys are riding hard...

Were all the other riders doping too.

Take a walk.

EPO sure made him great...

LETS STOP OVERRATING DOPING as the sole factor in cycling achievements...

Lance's wins don't come down to doping because what where seeing is EPO doesn't guarante victory. Why dope? Lance has seen Riis's results faulter under the influence of EPO.???... Please go back to my other thread & reread my first post.

 

[Willy_Voet]

The 1997 Tour de France. A doping Bjarne Riis (DEN)
LETS STOP OVERRATING DOPING as the sole factor in cycling achievements...

So we agree then that doping IS one of the factors? Glad we cleared that up.

 

[red_flanders]

Lets not forget what the UCI said in their statement regarding Manzano.

"Since the beginning of the year, cycling has been the focus of numerous attacks which have severely prejudiced the image of our sport and the honour of its participants," said a UCI statement, quoted in l'Equipe.

Calling Manzano a rider "not beyond reproach," the UCI regretted the continued practice of doping in the peloton but asserted that the majority of riders are clean, citing a figure that blood tests show more than 90% of the peloton to be clean.

"The UCI will react against anyone who tarnishes the image of cycling and the riders," the statement continued, adding that the UCI is prepared to take legal action against "all who, by their actions, do such damage to cycling's image."

Good stuff. Here's Jean-Marie LeBlanc on the issue:

"I can't help but have some doubts over this wave of revelations," said Leblanc.

"They have to be checked and authenticated."

"If in the next few days it turns out that what Manzano said is true or false, we'll act accordingly."

"But my feeling is that mister Manzano is saying whatever he wants."


Now to be fair LeBlanc is leaving the door open in his initial statements that it might be true, but clearly the condemn first approach is in full force.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Deadlift - I'm not sure if you understand this, but one example of a doped rider not performing, is not solid evidence based on history as you insinuate. No reasonable person would make this same deduction unless they were completely uninformed. Please elaborate more on why you think "history" shows doping does not work. And be specific.

Your posting style is very, very similar to that of BPC, Arbiter, Earth Tribe, Great White, Max Power – all members who were banned for making repeatedly false statements, changing topics, and at times insulting members. Are you sure you wish to keep up this pattern of posting?

 

[Escarabajo]

Deadlift - I'm not sure if you understand this, but one example of a doped rider not performing, is not solid evidence based on history as you insinuate. No reasonable person would make this same deduction unless they were completely uninformed. Please elaborate more on why you think "history" shows doping does not work. And be specific.

Your posting style is very, very similar to that of BPC, Arbiter, Earth Tribe, Great White, Max Power – all members who were banned for making repeatedly false statements, changing topics, and at times insulting members. Are you sure you wish to keep up this pattern of posting?

+1...............

I think you hit in the nail. I was getting ready to say to please don't answer to this guy. Absolutely makes no sense at all.

 

[oldschoolnik]

Apologies in advance for off topic post:

This may be if use to some of you:
____________
Dealing with Troublesome Users
Can I block posts, emails and messages from specific users?

If there are particular members that bother you and you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. There are several ways to do this:

Through your User Control Panel: User CP, Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List. Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.

-------------
Back to the thread now.....

 

[Ripper]

+1...............

I think you hit in the nail. I was getting ready to say to please don't answer to this guy. Absolutely makes no sense at all.

+278.5!

I had to get some of it out of my system! But now I will try to not reply!

 

[tubularglue]

shopping bag circa 2004

Manzano's list

A list of the products that Manzano has referred to in his interviews.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant)

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar29news

"Why doesn't the ACP (Association of Professional Cyclists) do anything? I don't have an answer. I believe that the ACP should exist to support all cycling. I received a telephone message in which they told me that a pact of silence was taken. Not these exact words, but more or less. Then there was that petition that was signed by the peloton."

 

[Race Radio]

Again, this thread isn't about Lance

Actually there is a Lance ingredient to this story.

Back when the UCI ran the OOC testing and lance claimed to be the "Worlds most tested Athlete" it was Walter Virú who would tip off the USPS team in advance of any "Surprise" testing.

 

[cyclegeek]

if this was 1998 and Festina was Astana, Armstrong's career is dead, and potentially his political career prevented (or stunted at the very least).

US meedja is hopeless.

But guess what? It's not Astana. So what's your point as usual. What is the point of even a comparison. There is none.

 

[tubularglue]

Actually there is a Lance ingredient to this story.

Back when the UCI ran the OOC testing and lance claimed to be the "Worlds most tested Athlete" it was Walter Virú who would tip off the USPS team in advance of any "Surprise" testing.

some dots connected from the past, and post/thread relevant

hopefully not a repost.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/walter-viru-then-and-now

snipped:

But if Manzano was telling the truth about Kelme, what does that say about institutionalized doping at US Postal/Discovery? See Jean Issartel's story below, translated from the original l'Equipe story from June 5th, 2007:

 

[BroDeal]

Manzano's list

A list of the products that Manzano has referred to in his interviews.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
...

The Deca is interesting. I thought that stuff has a very long detectability window, like up to eighteen months. That would indicate that masking agents are being effectively used or the testing process is a sham.

Tyler Hamilton had a period of anabolic steroid use in his training program from Fuentes.

 

[Race Radio]

The Deca is interesting. I thought that stuff has a very long detectability window, like up to eighteen months. That would indicate that masking agents are being effectively used or the testing process is a sham.

Tyler Hamilton had a period of anabolic steroid use in his training program from Fuentes.

nandrolone. It really depends on the person and how they use it. The test is a measurement test. The limit is 2.0 ng and the average athlete has .4 ng

Steroids are a key part of any blood vector doping program. Need to build muscle mass so the increase oxygen carrying capability can be taken advantage of.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The Deca is interesting. I thought that stuff has a very long detectability window, like up to eighteen months. That would indicate that masking agents are being effectively used or the testing process is a sham.

Tyler Hamilton had a period of anabolic steroid use in his training program from Fuentes.

It seemed to me that there were a number of duplications on his complete list. Maybe taking micro doses of a number of similar but different substances produces the desired effect while evading detection?

 

[Galic Ho]

Why would he dope??. History states when riders doped there performances have suffered.

When Riis was honked up to the eyeballs on EPO in '97, 30 minutes down on a clean Ullrich, Armstrong was thinking 'wait a minute'..... Do I need to dope???...

Maybe your just using allegations?, or hating?, finding excuses?, sorry EPO doesn't make a Tour winner, nor are we seeing it improve performances over clean riders.

History proves me right...

Hi Rex Hunter, BPC, Arbiter, Great White, Sprocket01. How do you notch up so many posts in such a short time under each new guise?

The bold shows you neither listen nor learn, as dopers have excelled since 1990. Did you not get the brain transplant for Chrissie? I'll ask the others to pass the bucket around, to help you out.

 

[Galic Ho]

Why would Eufemiano Fuentes give a cyclist any illegal substance???. To hinder performance from which we can draw many examples from throughout cycling history????... I don't blame Fuentes, he needs to make a buck, I blame Kelme for being fools into believing the stuff might actually win one of there riders a Tour. & as we all know, it doesn't. Doping doesn't win Tours... Something Armstrong knew from the get go...

I'll go over why Manzano talked to the Guardia Civil in the first place. Because Fuentes and the goofballs at Kelme almost killed him when they foolishly gave him the wrong blood bag and he went into shock. Solution. Put him on a train, alone and send him home. Not only was he telling the truth, he had evidence backing everything he said up. Why you ask? Well the Guardia Civil are not morons like you and do not investigate baseless allegations. Now F#%K off and expand your mind before you are banned again.

As for Manzano. That took some massive cajones to do what he did. Ballsy and brave.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Delete Deadweight's drivel and this is an interesting, informative thread.

A little contribution, for those who grasp french. A 7 minute, mini-documentary.
For those that don't, the roadside shots that led to his "coming out".

http://www.videopeloton.com/dettaglio.aspx?CodFile=51062

Dice with death to take substances that have no effect?
Yeah, right.

 

[Deadlift]

Deadlift - I'm not sure if you understand this, but one example of a doped rider not performing, is not solid evidence based on history as you insinuate. No reasonable person would make this same deduction unless they were completely uninformed. Please elaborate more on why you think "history" shows doping does not work. And be specific.

I'm not referring to one example of a doped rider not performing, but it goes all across the board. Of course its solid evidence. Riders honked upto the eyeballs on EPO aren't performing, there results show it, its all there in black & white, gone down in history. Riders honked to the eyeballs are beaten by cleaner riders, fact. So what can we draw from EPO's qualities of enhancing performance, NOT IN THE LAB but in competetion, in the blood & sweat. Well, NOTHING, results state that fact. We have seen riders honked & there results diminish. We can quite clearly see that doping isn't needed to win Tours & isn't needed by Armstrong. So don't throw crap Armstrongs way that doping is needed, or he needed doping to win Tours, it isn't & he didn't...

The history of EPO's most prevalent users, didn't win tours & didn't see improvements in there performances. We can see that through the years. History says so.

 

[Ferminal]

The history of EPO's most prevalent users, didn't win tours & didn't see improvements in there performances. We can see that through the years. History says so.

It's the exact reason Kohl didn't finish 1st in 2008.

Saustre and Cuddles were on the secret but totally amazing supplements, whilst poor Bernie was stuck on plain old EPO (CERA).

That said, what was Kohl's previous best in a GT?

 

[Ripper]

I'm not referring to one example of a doped rider not performing, but it goes all across the board. Of course its solid evidence. Riders honked upto the eyeballs on EPO ...

It does not look like you even got close to answering the question put to you. Specific?

 

[Deadlift]

It does not look like you even got close to answering the question put to you. Specific?

Check the past records & results of honking dopers... With the use of EPO there performances have actually diminished, speeds have slowered, all registered over clean riders. Check there records, its all there. Don't put too much emphasis on doping, it won't win you cycle races, will it give you an edge?. Not according to the history books of the honkers.

 

[Ripper]

Check the past records & results of honking dopers... With the use of EPO there performances have actually diminished, speeds have slowered, all registered over clean riders. Check there records, its all there. Don't put too much emphasis on doping, it won't win you cycle races, will it give you an edge?. Not according to the history books of the honkers.

You still have not asnwered the question