Manzano's testimony confirmed...yet again.

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Escarabajo said:
I really appreciate Manzano's confessions because he was the first one in giving tips how to recognize a rider that is starting to dope. For example when he was talking about the most important moments for doping were the time trials. I for once thought that it was the mountains, but based on what he said it was the time trials.

So looking at the progression results of some time trials of notable riders you can fit this doping pattern. It helped me be cautious when to cheer for a rider or not. A good example of this can be Basso. Sastre could also fit this pattern in the 2008 Tour de France.

There are also known bad Time Trialists such as Rasmussen, Cunego, Pantani and others that when they were riding doped they could sustain a good time trial to be in the top ten.

Remember Pedro Delgado. In 1988 Tour he really became a good time trialist in the flats and medium mountains. I thought it was weird at the time. Well now we understand.

Good tip that stuck with me ever since I heard him.
Yeah, there were days like when Pantani beat Tonkov in the TT of the Giro to secure the win that really threw my belief. I think the ol' Gas Bus was full on that day.

I think the other thing that Manzano really pointed out, and why people reacted to him so strongly, was the utter insanity of it all. The sheer number of drugs and the recklessness with which they were administered staggered belief for some. No one wanted to believe it was that bad, but these confirmations really hammer home how bad some teams can be.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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red_flanders said:
The sheer number of drugs and the recklessness with which they were administered staggered belief for some. No one wanted to believe it was that bad, but these confirmations really hammer home how bad some teams can be.
That won't really ever change. No matter how many scandals there are, the vast majority of fans will continue to react to almost every scandal the exact same way.

With absolute shock as they truly believed the sport was clean "after the last one".

Which is why throughout my (admittedly not very long) life, throughout the years, no matter how much evidence I present that not much has changed, I'm usually greeted with the "You're wrong, I just know most are clean now" attitude.

The same way that everyone "knew" everyone was clean after the 98 scandals. Until they found out with the 99 scandals that it wasn't true. But then they "knew" it was all clean by then. Until they found out it wasn't after the 2001 Giro scandals. But then they "knew" it was clean then. Until the.....(rinse and repeat)
 
Aug 26, 2009
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Manzano

issoisso said:
That won't really ever change. No matter how many scandals there are, the vast majority of fans will continue to react to almost every scandal the exact same way.

With absolute shock as they truly believed the sport was clean "after the last one".

Which is why throughout my (admittedly not very long) life, throughout the years, no matter how much evidence I present that not much has changed, I'm usually greeted with the "You're wrong, I just know most are clean now" attitude.

The same way that everyone "knew" everyone was clean after the 98 scandals. Until they found out with the 99 scandals that it wasn't true. But then they "knew" it was all clean by then. Until they found out it wasn't after the 2001 Giro scandals. But then they "knew" it was clean then. Until the.....(rinse and repeat)
When I first read/heard/saw Manzano's accusations (I live in Spain), I didn't believe him for this simple reason:- I thought no doctor (how naive I was!) would give anyone such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication. As time went on, and these "medications" became everyday words in the cycling community, I felt Manzano was owed an apology from all who'd doubted him. Instead, he was the pariah, the one who suffered while the "doctor" and the people who supplied the products were walking around free, instead of being locked up and the key thrown away. The anti-doping authorities are still chasing & punishing the wrong people.
 
Dec 26, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Actually, I think you're on everyone's ignore list.
Due to the fact I won my point on what doping does for a cyclists performance & what it would have done for Armstrong. Sweet FA.

EPO & doping in general is so overly exaggerated & overrated, its unbelieveable.

When the sports gets 100% clean, we will still see clean riders producing remarkable performances, times etc without the use of doping.

I want all the upcoming juniors who go on to turn professional to remember, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, you won't come ahead of Cavendish in the sprint, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to beat Cancellara in TT, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to take a clean Contador's crown in the Tour, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to be as great as Armstrong...


Its all people talk about. Sorry, its not the be all, end all... Your wasting your time talking about what such huge influence it has on success in cycling... F all... Agreed its against the rules, doesn't mean its great..
 
quiensabe said:
When I first read/heard/saw Manzano's accusations (I live in Spain), I didn't believe him for this simple reason:- I thought no doctor (how naive I was!) would give anyone such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication. As time went on, and these "medications" became everyday words in the cycling community, I felt Manzano was owed an apology from all who'd doubted him. Instead, he was the pariah, the one who suffered while the "doctor" and the people who supplied the products were walking around free, instead of being locked up and the key thrown away. The anti-doping authorities are still chasing & punishing the wrong people.
Bingo. Exactly why I posted this thread--the follow up has to be there so people can see how crazy the current system is. The people trying to fix it are constantly attacked, while the scumbags enabling it go free.
 
Dec 26, 2009
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quiensabe said:
When I first read/heard/saw Manzano's accusations (I live in Spain), I didn't believe him for this simple reason:- I thought no doctor (how naive I was!) would give anyone such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication.
Its unfortunate such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication wouldn't have worked for any rider in the Kelme team, trying to claim a Tour De France. But there you go. The history of honking dopers states that fact. Maybe you can go ask the Kelme-Costa Blanca team, maybe they will tell you what this crap did for there potentials & performances in the Tours, Classics???.. Suddenly they were beating everyone under the sun. Right?. WRONG. Doping doesn't work.

Live & let die.
 
Dec 26, 2009
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Errrrrr. If it didn't work for the Kelme team, then errrrrr.... Whats it gonna do for Armstrong again?...

Thats right...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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totally

Yeah Deadlift, you're totally right. What's Lance on? His bike! 6 hours a day!

And totally, doping doesn't work at all. Didn't work for Lance, Di Luca, Flandis, Heras, Hamilton, Museeuw, Riis, Zabel, Ullrich - all those guys. They're winnings were down to hard work! It's just spending money for the placebo effect. I am so happy you've trolled your way here to enlighten us.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Grilled said:
Yeah Deadlift, you're totally right. What's Lance on? His bike! 6 hours a day!

And totally, doping doesn't work at all. Didn't work for Lance, Di Luca, Flandis, Heras, Hamilton, Museeuw, Riis, Zabel, Ullrich - all those guys. They're winnings were down to hard work! It's just spending money for the placebo effect. I am so happy you've trolled your way here to enlighten us.
Shhh, don't feed the troll.

 
Apr 20, 2009
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petethedrummer said:
Not True, I'll quote somebody else on Bike Rader

David Walsh also mentions the poll where Virenque was voted the 2nd mosted hated celebrity in France somwhere in this interview:
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2007/07/148david-walsh-part-1/
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2007/07/149david-walsh-part-2/

The poll gets mentioned here too.... http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling-the-feted-and-hated-one-1105795.html

Unfortunately my French is too poor to find the actual poll in French.
Thanks for the info. I guess my impression was mistaken. Do you know if his popularity rebounded at all after his return from suspension and before his retirement? he won a few big races after his suspension (paris-tours, tour stage...). maybe this helped get some of his popularity back?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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poupou said:
As French, I confirm that Virenque, and his family, had to face to very hard days that lasted for 2 years.
He is still used as symbol of doping...

If you want to have an idea just google "Virenque guignol" and look at some videos.
Thanks. by the way, what does "guignol" mean?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Hugh Januss said:
As far as I'm concerned you captured the entire podium singlehanded. You made it a one man (?) argument. So now that you've won why don't you go somewhere (else) and celebrate.
please don't quote you know who.

cheers
 
Dec 26, 2009
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Grilled said:
Yeah Deadlift, you're totally right. What's Lance on? His bike! 6 hours a day!

And totally, doping doesn't work at all. Didn't work for Lance, Di Luca, Flandis, Heras, Hamilton, Museeuw, Riis, Zabel, Ullrich - all those guys. They're winnings were down to hard work! It's just spending money for the placebo effect. I am so happy you've trolled your way here to enlighten us.
I want all the upcoming juniors who go on to turn professional to remember, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, you won't come ahead of a clean Cavendish in the sprint, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to beat a clean Cancellara in TT, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to take a clean Contador's crown in the Tour, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to be as great as Armstrong...

I may end it there... Not sure... History proves riders who took EPO didn't see success straight away in competetion nor did they ever stay on top when honked up against clean riders, but performances actually faultered, went backwards under the influence... Maybe a rider needs to dope for a decade before we see any viable results in the big events, not sure. Credibility factor over the long term usage of EPO in terms of consistant performances in the big events?. Not good. Maybe the hunger factor of reaching the top, the been there, done that, were probably bigger factors than doping in succeding & faultering at the highest level shown to be the case by so many of the top riders who doped...
 
Dec 26, 2009
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Cadel, Cancellara, Armstrong, Contador....

ALL WINNING, ALL CLEAN, ALL WITH THE FIRE IN THERE BELLYS...

Maybe the hunger factor of reaching the top, the been there, done that, were probably bigger factors than doping in succeding & faultering at the highest level shown to be the case by so many of the top riders who doped...
 
Dec 26, 2009
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So, lets get off doping's sack...

Told you from the beginning, I'm telling all you slimeballs now...

Doping doesn't give an advantage over clean riders... Recent successes prove me right...

Off its sack please.

Thankyou...
 
Dec 26, 2009
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Forget about what there saying in the laboratories, the graphs, the pie charts, its in competition where the real stats are that count, not guys in white coats putting rats through there paces on treadmills, honking the rats to there eyeballs on EPO... & telling us that rats can bonk 6 hours longer doped up & certainly not a bunch of narrow minded forum warriors who can't see past there noses....
 
Jul 19, 2009
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gregod said:
Thanks. by the way, what does "guignol" mean?
Guignol is a muppet... and there is a french sarcastic TV show named "The Guignols of the News" or "News puppets".

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Guignols_de_l'info
The Guignols have had a tremendous impact on French popular culture, in many case introducing or popularizing phrases. For instance, à l'insu de mon plein gré ("without the knowledge of my own free will"), repeated by the puppet representing Richard Virenque is now attributed in jest to people who hypocritically deny having willfully committed attributed acts.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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poupou said:
Guignol is a muppet... and there is a french sarcastic TV show named "The Guignols of the News" or "News puppets".

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Guignols_de_l'info
cool. thanks for the information. i'll try to check it out on youtube.

a question about virenque's popularity; i seem to recall that he was the housewives' favorite. I think it was this group that his "admission" did not have much impact. Is this correct?
 
All ribbing aside, I think it's important that people know there is an ignore feature, and how to use it. This helps keep the forum self-policed, and helps keep my inbox from being filled with complaints about posts and members. The ignore feature is easy to use, and pretty effective:

Simply click on someone's name. This will lead you to their profile. From there, look for the drop down "User List" menu. In that menu you'll see an option to "Add to Ignore List".

gregod said:
Do you know if (Virenque's) popularity rebounded at all after his return from suspension and before his retirement?
My understanding is that because he's always drawn a lot of attention, even after his suspension he was both very popular, and unpopular in France.

Mellow Velo said:
Yes and after Pat's grand proclamation about a passport enduced, clean era, I expect a major bust in France or Italy, during 2010.
Are you talking about the 2009 Astana drip bags?
 

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