I am very sorry sir, he wasn't on mine yet. But he is now.Alpe d'Huez said:Actually, I think you're on everyone's ignore list.
I am very sorry sir, he wasn't on mine yet. But he is now.Alpe d'Huez said:Actually, I think you're on everyone's ignore list.
Yeah, there were days like when Pantani beat Tonkov in the TT of the Giro to secure the win that really threw my belief. I think the ol' Gas Bus was full on that day.Escarabajo said:I really appreciate Manzano's confessions because he was the first one in giving tips how to recognize a rider that is starting to dope. For example when he was talking about the most important moments for doping were the time trials. I for once thought that it was the mountains, but based on what he said it was the time trials.
So looking at the progression results of some time trials of notable riders you can fit this doping pattern. It helped me be cautious when to cheer for a rider or not. A good example of this can be Basso. Sastre could also fit this pattern in the 2008 Tour de France.
There are also known bad Time Trialists such as Rasmussen, Cunego, Pantani and others that when they were riding doped they could sustain a good time trial to be in the top ten.
Remember Pedro Delgado. In 1988 Tour he really became a good time trialist in the flats and medium mountains. I thought it was weird at the time. Well now we understand.
Good tip that stuck with me ever since I heard him.
That won't really ever change. No matter how many scandals there are, the vast majority of fans will continue to react to almost every scandal the exact same way.red_flanders said:The sheer number of drugs and the recklessness with which they were administered staggered belief for some. No one wanted to believe it was that bad, but these confirmations really hammer home how bad some teams can be.
When I first read/heard/saw Manzano's accusations (I live in Spain), I didn't believe him for this simple reason:- I thought no doctor (how naive I was!) would give anyone such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication. As time went on, and these "medications" became everyday words in the cycling community, I felt Manzano was owed an apology from all who'd doubted him. Instead, he was the pariah, the one who suffered while the "doctor" and the people who supplied the products were walking around free, instead of being locked up and the key thrown away. The anti-doping authorities are still chasing & punishing the wrong people.issoisso said:That won't really ever change. No matter how many scandals there are, the vast majority of fans will continue to react to almost every scandal the exact same way.
With absolute shock as they truly believed the sport was clean "after the last one".
Which is why throughout my (admittedly not very long) life, throughout the years, no matter how much evidence I present that not much has changed, I'm usually greeted with the "You're wrong, I just know most are clean now" attitude.
The same way that everyone "knew" everyone was clean after the 98 scandals. Until they found out with the 99 scandals that it wasn't true. But then they "knew" it was all clean by then. Until they found out it wasn't after the 2001 Giro scandals. But then they "knew" it was clean then. Until the.....(rinse and repeat)
Due to the fact I won my point on what doping does for a cyclists performance & what it would have done for Armstrong. Sweet FA.Alpe d'Huez said:Actually, I think you're on everyone's ignore list.
Bingo. Exactly why I posted this thread--the follow up has to be there so people can see how crazy the current system is. The people trying to fix it are constantly attacked, while the scumbags enabling it go free.quiensabe said:When I first read/heard/saw Manzano's accusations (I live in Spain), I didn't believe him for this simple reason:- I thought no doctor (how naive I was!) would give anyone such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication. As time went on, and these "medications" became everyday words in the cycling community, I felt Manzano was owed an apology from all who'd doubted him. Instead, he was the pariah, the one who suffered while the "doctor" and the people who supplied the products were walking around free, instead of being locked up and the key thrown away. The anti-doping authorities are still chasing & punishing the wrong people.
Its unfortunate such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication wouldn't have worked for any rider in the Kelme team, trying to claim a Tour De France. But there you go. The history of honking dopers states that fact. Maybe you can go ask the Kelme-Costa Blanca team, maybe they will tell you what this crap did for there potentials & performances in the Tours, Classics???.. Suddenly they were beating everyone under the sun. Right?. WRONG. Doping doesn't work.quiensabe said:When I first read/heard/saw Manzano's accusations (I live in Spain), I didn't believe him for this simple reason:- I thought no doctor (how naive I was!) would give anyone such an evil mixture of chemicals, hormones & vetinary medication.
Shhh, don't feed the troll.Grilled said:Yeah Deadlift, you're totally right. What's Lance on? His bike! 6 hours a day!
And totally, doping doesn't work at all. Didn't work for Lance, Di Luca, Flandis, Heras, Hamilton, Museeuw, Riis, Zabel, Ullrich - all those guys. They're winnings were down to hard work! It's just spending money for the placebo effect. I am so happy you've trolled your way here to enlighten us.
Thanks for the info. I guess my impression was mistaken. Do you know if his popularity rebounded at all after his return from suspension and before his retirement? he won a few big races after his suspension (paris-tours, tour stage...). maybe this helped get some of his popularity back?petethedrummer said:Not True, I'll quote somebody else on Bike Rader
David Walsh also mentions the poll where Virenque was voted the 2nd mosted hated celebrity in France somwhere in this interview:
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2007/07/148david-walsh-part-1/
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2007/07/149david-walsh-part-2/
The poll gets mentioned here too.... http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling-the-feted-and-hated-one-1105795.html
Unfortunately my French is too poor to find the actual poll in French.
Thanks. by the way, what does "guignol" mean?poupou said:As French, I confirm that Virenque, and his family, had to face to very hard days that lasted for 2 years.
He is still used as symbol of doping...
If you want to have an idea just google "Virenque guignol" and look at some videos.
please don't quote you know who.Hugh Januss said:As far as I'm concerned you captured the entire podium singlehanded. You made it a one man (?) argument. So now that you've won why don't you go somewhere (else) and celebrate.
quoting feeds trolls.Alpe d'Huez said:Actually, I think you're on everyone's ignore list.
I want all the upcoming juniors who go on to turn professional to remember, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, you won't come ahead of a clean Cavendish in the sprint, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to beat a clean Cancellara in TT, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to take a clean Contador's crown in the Tour, if your going to start honking EPO/HGH etc, your not going to be as great as Armstrong...Grilled said:Yeah Deadlift, you're totally right. What's Lance on? His bike! 6 hours a day!
And totally, doping doesn't work at all. Didn't work for Lance, Di Luca, Flandis, Heras, Hamilton, Museeuw, Riis, Zabel, Ullrich - all those guys. They're winnings were down to hard work! It's just spending money for the placebo effect. I am so happy you've trolled your way here to enlighten us.
Maybe the hunger factor of reaching the top, the been there, done that, were probably bigger factors than doping in succeding & faultering at the highest level shown to be the case by so many of the top riders who doped...
Guignol is a muppet... and there is a french sarcastic TV show named "The Guignols of the News" or "News puppets".gregod said:Thanks. by the way, what does "guignol" mean?
The Guignols have had a tremendous impact on French popular culture, in many case introducing or popularizing phrases. For instance, à l'insu de mon plein gré ("without the knowledge of my own free will"), repeated by the puppet representing Richard Virenque is now attributed in jest to people who hypocritically deny having willfully committed attributed acts.
There are plenty of Guignol's type hanging round these boards...poupou said:Guignol is a muppet
Alpe d'Huez said:Actually, I think you're on everyone's ignore list.
Hugh Januss said:I am very sorry sir, he wasn't on mine yet. But he is now.![]()
......................gregod said:please don't quote you know who.
cheers
cool. thanks for the information. i'll try to check it out on youtube.poupou said:Guignol is a muppet... and there is a french sarcastic TV show named "The Guignols of the News" or "News puppets".
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Guignols_de_l'info
My understanding is that because he's always drawn a lot of attention, even after his suspension he was both very popular, and unpopular in France.gregod said:Do you know if (Virenque's) popularity rebounded at all after his return from suspension and before his retirement?
Are you talking about the 2009 Astana drip bags?Mellow Velo said:Yes and after Pat's grand proclamation about a passport enduced, clean era, I expect a major bust in France or Italy, during 2010.