Mathieu Van der Poel

[OldCranky]

Not sure what all the fuss is about, regarding Mathieu this year. Clearly a very talented rider, he places emphasis on all aspects of training, nutrition, and race preparation. Okay, he's had some good performances, but nothing that exceptional. At Amstel Gold, he had a nice finishing surge -- nothing too outlandish. He looks after his health, washes hands properly, works to maximize dietary benefit, and trains very hard. He places tremendous focus on many factors -- none of which taken alone would account for huge differences in performance, but taken together, the marginal gains harvested by his dedication and discipline have added up to some good outcomes.

If he can just get one of those special pillows he'll sweep the Monuments next year.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

it's funny because mvdp is as un-scientific / sky like as can be.

He trains more on feeling, and then in the youth his dad forced him to rest and now his team does, otherwise he'll train too hard. Then he eats french fries after every sunday cx race because he wants to. And his tactics make no sense at all. He defies all logic.

 

[JosephK]

Re:

it's funny because mvdp is as un-scientific / sky like as can be.

He trains more on feeling, and then in the youth his dad forced him to rest and now his team does, otherwise he'll train too hard. Then he eats french fries after every sunday cx race because he wants to. And his tactics make no sense at all. He defies all logic.

I think these may actually be hopeful signs. I was being a bit of a smartass with my earlier comment on MVDP . . . anything for a laugh.

 

[Ripper]

Re:

it's funny because mvdp is as un-scientific / sky like as can be.

He trains more on feeling, and then in the youth his dad forced him to rest and now his team does, otherwise he'll train too hard. Then he eats french fries after every sunday cx race because he wants to. And his tactics make no sense at all. He defies all logic.

Honestly, I don't think any of it matters and there's so much BS. Who really knows - the spin docs will spin it either way. Sky was more 'scientific' (mmhmm). Lance just trained harder/longer. MvdP just trains by feel. Whatever. None of it means much of anything TBH

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I think, while scientific training can really help a lot of riders, it all comes down to personal feeling in the end. What works for rider x doesn't work for rider y.

While Ineos training regime works for Froome, it killed many other hopeful riders and would not work for a person like MvdP. Some people can train hard all the time. Some people need to rest a lot to be good. Some riders need to race a lot to get in the form, while others just need 1 good altitide camp.

There is indeed a whole lot of BS, based on incidental succes and not a large sample size of cause/=/effect.

 

[Ripper]

Nice attack today!

 

[glassmoon]

Nice attack today!

Basically a trademark attack at this point... (love it)

 

[Ripper]

Nice attack today!

Basically a trademark attack at this point... (love it)

Yup, pretty much. Completely alien on repeat mode :lol:

 

[glassmoon]

Wow, another killer uphill attack in XCO. Too bad he's not going for the XCO WCH... guess he fancies his Road WCH chances pretty high this year.

 

[Ripper]

LOL
LOL
LOL

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

schurter did this for years like this and nobody batted an eye (killer attack on last lap). Where are his topics?

 

[glassmoon]

Re:

schurter did this for years like this and nobody batted an eye (killer attack on last lap). Where are his topics?

i recon this forum is 99% road races/riders/fans - pure mtb rider's threads are not very frequent here.
and I agree, he did this type of attacks for years - he's getting older though

 

[zastomito]

Mopped the floor with Schurter again.

 

[djerkson]

Nothing alien about MvdP. Good genes with Poulidor as grandfather and dad as a very good rider himself. I see pages with tons of bullsh*t accusations in them, but zero evidence. Mathieu is really that good and David van der Poel is really that normal. You would think if they both were doping, we would see something like the Schleck brothers, but nope. I see a hugely talented guy who has been winning ever since the first day he got on his bike. Take it or leave it, but I don't see anything suspicious about it.
Isn't it tiring, everytime a young, talented rider wins, to hop on this forum and make silly accusations based on nothing. Somebody compared Mvdp to Riis? Say whut? We are almost 23 years later, everthing has evolved, bikes, training methods, science, etc...

 

[Ripper]

Nothing alien about MvdP. Good genes with Poulidor as grandfather and dad as a very good rider himself. I see pages with tons of bullsh*t accusations in them, but zero evidence. Mathieu is really that good and David van der Poel is really that normal. You would think if they both were doping, we would see something like the Schleck brothers, but nope. I see a hugely talented guy who has been winning ever since the first day he got on his bike. Take it or leave it, but I don't see anything suspicious about it.
Isn't it tiring, everytime a young, talented rider wins, to hop on this forum and make silly accusations based on nothing. Somebody compared Mvdp to Riis? Say whut? We are almost 23 years later, everthing has evolved, bikes, training methods, science, etc...

LOL.
It's totally OK that you think he's 100% on the level. That's fine, and we can all have our opinion ... no need to get all hot under the collar and comment on accusations (this is the clinic ). Personally, I've already stated how much I think he's a great rider to watch and think he seems like a great person too, but that "I've seen this before so many times, and not once was it purely talent and training".

MvdP lays on some pretty alien level attacks though, so it's a bit contradictory to say "nothing alien" and then say he's "really that good". When he lays on an attack, it's like a Cat 1 attacking a Cat 5, or like when I'm going for a spin and an ebike blasts by.

 

[Ripper]

schurter did this for years like this and nobody batted an eye (killer attack on last lap). Where are his topics?

I guess some of the folks more into MTB were not commenting as much in the clinic? For sure, NS could be charging and feel free to start a thread. FWIW, MvdP's attacks just seem that much more alien then what I remember Schurter doing. It's just insane and I really find it difficult to suspend disbelief, which only tends to happen when I'm watching something silly.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Mathieu is really that good and David van der Poel is really that normal. You would think if they both were doping, we would see something like the Schleck brothers, but nope.

I don't see what his brother's performance has to do with anything. Maybe he doesn't dope, maybe he doesn't respond, or maybe not even doping can make him very good. The Schlecks and the Yates are actually quite unusual. Philippe Gilbert's brother not being good on a bike doesn't make Gilbert less suspicious. Prudencio Indurain, Juraj Sagan, Antonio Nibali and many others all say hi.

 

[Ripper]

I don't see what his brother's performance has to do with anything. Maybe he doesn't dope, maybe he doesn't respond, or maybe not even doping can make him very good. The Schlecks and the Yates are actually quite unusual. Philippe Gilbert's brother not being good on a bike doesn't make Gilbert less suspicious. Prudencio Indurain, Juraj Sagan, Antonio Nibali and many others all say hi.

I forgot about Prudencio! LOL

Siblings being vastly different in ability is only a sign that they are vastly different in ability.

 

[Bolder]

Schurter had a ... MVDP-like ... record in VTT, including a perfect season in 2017. Look at his palmares from 2012 until last year if you want to see dominance. He's probably just dropped off a bit this year from age. He's 33 or so. I used to follow VTT a little closer, but in the past there's been guys and women like him who could just ride away from the field, though he took it to another level. Clean? Unlikely.

MVDP's dominance in 3 disciplines this year -- he's basically been on a peak for 8 months now -- astounds me. I don't know what to make of it, frankly -- it's possible that overall, the field is cleaner and he is just that much better on a sub-threshold program.

 

[red_flanders]

Schurter had a ... MVDP-like ... record in VTT, including a perfect season in 2017. Look at his palmares from 2012 until last year if you want to see dominance. He's probably just dropped off a bit this year from age. He's 33 or so. I used to follow VTT a little closer, but in the past there's been guys and women like him who could just ride away from the field, though he took it to another level. Clean? Unlikely.

MVDP's dominance in 3 disciplines this year -- he's basically been on a peak for 8 months now -- astounds me. I don't know what to make of it, frankly -- it's possible that overall, the field is cleaner and he is just that much better on a sub-threshold program.

Just curious what you mean by this. Not a full-blown program? Thx.

Great point about the length of time he's been in dominant shape! Incredible.

 

[djerkson]

I don't see what his brother's performance has to do with anything. Maybe he doesn't dope, maybe he doesn't respond, or maybe not even doping can make him very good. The Schlecks and the Yates are actually quite unusual. Philippe Gilbert's brother not being good on a bike doesn't make Gilbert less suspicious. Prudencio Indurain, Juraj Sagan, Antonio Nibali and many others all say hi.

So you're admitting genes play a huge role, technically speaking.

 

[Bolder]

Just curious what you mean by this. Not a full-blown program? Thx.

Great point about the length of time he's been in dominant shape! Incredible.

By sub-threshold, meaning micro-dosing to avoid levels of EPO etc that could trigger red flags. So yes, not a full blown program. My personal belief, not based on anything except a feeling, is that the peloton is cleaner. My only evidence is that it's been a long time since we've seen a top level rider taken down, Froome notwithstanding.

 

[red_flanders]

By sub-threshold, meaning micro-dosing to avoid levels of EPO etc that could trigger red flags. So yes, not a full blown program. My personal belief, not based on anything except a feeling, is that the peloton is cleaner. My only evidence is that it's been a long time since we've seen a top level rider taken down, Froome notwithstanding.

Cool, thanks. Personally, for musing about the relative cleanliness of the peloton, I’d look at the level of performance over the season, which is admittedly very challenging to measure or approximate. Also I think the emergence of young talent might be an indicator, but while knows.

I think the powers that be have far too much incentive to cover up positives from the big riders, and the relative lack of busts could easily be an artifact of "we've learned our lesson". Froome a perfect case in point.

I would say that the thing that made me wonder about it this year is the seemingly more reasonable performances we saw in the Tour this year. But I think that bears more scrutiny than I’ve given it.

It is nice to see seemingly talented riders emerge instead of obvious frauds popping up late in their careers. It does give me, if not hope for a cleaner peloton, at least excitement about watching some fantastic battles between real talents over the next 10 years.

 

[Bolder]

Cool, thanks. Personally, for musing about the relative cleanliness of the peloton, I’d look at the level of performance over the season, which is admittedly very challenging to measure or approximate. Also I think the emergence of young talent might be an indicator, but while knows.

I think the powers that be have far too much incentive to cover up positives from the big riders, and the relative lack of busts could easily be an artifact of "we've learned our lesson". Froome a perfect case in point.

I would say that the thing that made me wonder about it this year is the seemingly more reasonable performances we saw in the Tour this year. But I think that bears more scrutiny than I’ve given it.

It is nice to see seemingly talented riders emerge instead of obvious frauds popping up late in their careers. It does give me, if not hope for a cleaner peloton, at least excitement about watching some fantastic battles between real talents over the next 10 years.

I agree -- All the young or youngish riders who have left a mark this season were pegged early on for greatness or have shown steady progression -- Bernal, Sivakov, Ciccone, MVDP, WVA, Alaphilippe (still 26 or maybe just 27), Remco, Ivan Sosa, Pogacar, Lambrecht, Carapaz. Roglic etc -- there really haven't been any "Where'd HE come from" moments.

In fact looking back on that list, it's incredible how many strong young riders there are right now. I'm under no illusions that they're all clean, but "cleanish" would be OK with me, tbh, because one bust triggers a domino effect of "well, if he was dirty, than so must rider x,y.z"

Regarding a coverup of positives -- that's something we can only speculate on. I'm probably naive but I'd like to think it's not the UCI's modus operandi.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I agree -- All the young or youngish riders who have left a mark this season were pegged early on for greatness or have shown steady progression -- Bernal, Sivakov, Ciccone, MVDP, WVA, Alaphilippe (still 26 or maybe just 27), Remco, Ivan Sosa, Pogacar, Lambrecht, Carapaz. Roglic etc -- there really haven't been any "Where'd HE come from" moments.

In fact looking back on that list, it's incredible how many strong young riders there are right now. I'm under no illusions that they're all clean, but "cleanish" would be OK with me, tbh, because one bust triggers a domino effect of "well, if he was dirty, than so must rider x,y.z"

Regarding a coverup of positives -- that's something we can only speculate on. I'm probably naive but I'd like to think it's not the UCI's modus operandi.

It is far more likely, that young talent has an easier way pushing through, because the rest of the peloton is a lot cleaner, instead of assuming these young guys are doped out of their eyeballs. As if along with them, came a new breed of dope that the old guys don't have access to.

Looking at this graph, it makes you wonder what happened between 2007 and 2008, concerning average race speed:

What is the average season race speed per year?

In the 100+ years of cycling history, races tend to become faster and faster. What was the average race speed over the past seasons? Are stages races in the WorldTour faster than oneday races?

www.procyclingstats.com