Matt White stands down from all positions

[MattCla]

And I know riders who were awesome who came back after 1 year in Europe and didn't race again, disillusioned. They chose not to dope.

Personal responsibility trumps all in my book.

If Jonker was training with a doped up LA in the mountains day in day out, he's either doped enough to keep up, or stronger than LA.

So, if you were awesome and didnt come back disillusioned from 1 year in Europe, then clearly you must have been doping... Maybe Jonkers is more uber awesome than the riders you knew Maybe he had different expectations. Maybe there were different expectations of him. Maybe he had a different support structure over in Europe. Maybe he was on different teams.

You were at the LA training camp with Jonkers or know someone who was? LA was doped to the gills going at 100% and Jonkers could keep up day after day? You know that how?

If Jonkers comes out I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but until then it's just another unstantiated smear from behind the anonymity of a keyboard. Maybe take some of that personal responsibility buddy.

 

[sittingbison]

...The Today show could give two hoots whether Wiggins cheated.

...so didn't know it was those top notch journos at the Today show asking the questions.

top notch journos at the Today:
"So Skylar, when did you move shows from Heroes to Simpsons?"

 

[MattCla]

jonker has been spruiking Armstrong talking points in the last 6 months, he deserves scorn

there is that

 

[dsut4392]

I am sure it does....I do not know why the media are not questioning how Rogers only got a "training program"??? Apparently you only get dope with that training program if you are not Australian.... And you are clean cause you ride with Sky....Give me a break....

C'mon, why would Rogers have needed to get dope from Ferrari when the team had the Freiburg setup?

 

[PACONi]

In his book, Hamilton certainly makes it sound like Rihs had no idea what he was up to.

Still, I don't know why Tyler would make that statement. He can't possibly know what Evans has been up to the last 5 or 6 years. Unless Evans was widely recognized as clean in the peloton when he was still there? That sounds far-fetched, and I imagine Tyler would have mentioned it if that was the case.

My bad, I don't remember that from his book. But I do have a vague memory of Landis saying that Rihs helped fund his program. I probably read that here, so it might not be true also.

 

[sittingbison]

one thing to remember is Ferrari had already been banned. Then let back. Simeoni had already testified. Lance had already ridden him down, sworn at him and did the zip lips gesture. Two years before Dodgers Ferrari admission and a year before his Tenerife trip.

So, why would Dodger go to Tenerife with Ferrari AFTER all this crap?

More must be asked now about White sending Lowe to del Morral. This might be the smoking gun that shoots Cycling Australia in the foot.

 

[msjett]

C'mon, why would Rogers have needed to get dope from Ferrari when the team had the Freiburg setup?

I forgot about that one....so why aren't they looking more carefully at Rogers? I figure White must have put his hand up to take the bullet....

 

[PACONi]

What reason would Hamilton have to comment about Evans win and not Wiggins? Those comments of his raise a lot more questions in my mind.

Edit : beaten to it by about 3 others.....

 

[msjett]

I couldn't get the video to run on my work pc, but I'm assuming that an Aust reporter put a direct question to Hamilton re: Evans and that resulted in the quotes. Being so Oz focused the interviewer probably never thought to lump Wiggins into the bargain.

But again, I haven't seen the original interview.

All good...I haven't seen it either.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You were at the LA training camp with Jonkers or know someone who was? LA was doped to the gills going at 100% and Jonkers could keep up day after day? You know that how?

Yes. Jonkers himself: 2000: US Postal Service (United States)

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239661077326094336

Why support @lancearmstrong? I was there training 6-7hrs a day beside him in the mountains- freezing rain up Mt Ventoux-Izoard-Avoriaz.

Please tell me Lance did not dope when he was training in 2000.

If Jonkers comes out I'll gladly admit I'm wrong but until then it's just another unstantiated smear from behind the anonymity of a keyboard. Maybe take some of that personal responsibility buddy.

I ain't your buddy.

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239661171282677760

It was not some drug that made @lancearmstrong win it was something far more powerful deep within .

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239661263372836864

as there is no drug on the planet that can make a man achieve what @lancearmstrong achieved.

ETA: August/September, 2012

Just FYI: EPO, testosterone and cortisone are the three drugs that can make a man achieve what @lancearmstrong achieved. But Jonker is right - it's not just the drugs. There's a whole bunch of bribes and UCI complicity that is required also, a good doctor to match the drugs to the training program, suppliers of those drugs, drug delivery people. In fact you could almost say an entire conspiracy would be required, beyond just the drugs.

I wasn't there though. So feel free to disregard anything I say.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239291322916290560

The real winners of Armstrongs Tours? was Armstrong .Microscopic anomolies which have taken years to dig up to then crusify - Why ???

ETA: August, 2012

 

[Hillavoider]

lol, looks like jonkers has decided to martyr himself

 

[PCutter]

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239291322916290560


ETA: August, 2012

Patrick Jonker, what a plonker.

Glad he's Dutch

 

[Ferminal]

Yes, even if Jonker actually was clean you certainly wouldn't take his word for it given the way he has dismissed claims against Armstrong for years.

 

[dsut4392]

I forgot about that one....so why aren't they looking more carefully at Rogers? I figure White must have put his hand up to take the bullet....

The cynic in me says it's just a continuation of the usual Cycling Australia policy "don't ask, don't tell".

I nearly choked on my toast when Tomo said something like "this must be a real disappointment for Cycling Australia after all the hard work they have been doing to clean up the sport" in the CyclingCentral video linked a few posts up. Hard work? Cleaning? Lots of sweeping maybe, but only under the carpet!

Unfortunately "sports administrators" seem to have become so used to the whole "plausible deniability" game that even when they're up to their necks in excrement they can't smell it. Honestly, who could take White's Del Moral excuse seriously after JV threw him under the bus?

I doubt White "put his hand up to take the bullet". The analogy that comes to mind is more like a farmer with infected animals who waits too long to start shooting them. White has finally taken a bullet, but his obvious case of foot and mouth disease has been wilfully ignored for so long now that the whole herd will probably have to be shot, bulldozed into a hole in the ground, and burned.

 

[msjett]

The cynic in me says it's just a continuation of the usual Cycling Australia policy "don't ask, don't tell".

I nearly choked on my toast when Tomo said something like "this must be a real disappointment for Cycling Australia after all the hard work they have been doing to clean up the sport" in the CyclingCentral video linked a few posts up. Hard work? Cleaning? Lots of sweeping maybe, but only under the carpet!

Unfortunately "sports administrators" seem to have become so used to the whole "plausible deniability" game that even when they're up to their necks in excrement they can't smell it. Honestly, who could take White's Del Moral excuse seriously after JV threw him under the bus?

I doubt White "put his hand up to take the bullet". The analogy that comes to mind is more like a farmer with infected animals who waits too long to start shooting them. White has finally taken a bullet, but his obvious case of foot and mouth disease has been wilfully ignored for so long now that the whole herd will probably have to be shot, bulldozed into a hole in the ground, and burned.

I like your analogy...

As for Tomo and Tan on Cycling Central I think I spent the whole 15 minutes they were crapping on giving myself a face palm.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I like your analogy...

As for Tomo and Tan on Cycling Central I think I spent the whole 15 minutes they were crapping on giving myself a face palm.

Why do I instantly think, Dumb and Dumber...

 

[MattCla]

Sorry, old news but just to reiterate the new 'clean cycling' stewardship the UCI provide us punters and the peloton...

In May last year a UCI report was leaked to the French daily sports newspaper L’Equipe. It was a list of the riders who competed in the 2010 Tour de France, ranking each on suspicion of doping.

Australians Michael Rogers, a triple world time-trial champion, and Matthew Lloyd were placed in a category that contained riders who showed “overwhelming evidence of some kind of doping, due to recurring anomalies, enormous variations in parameters, and even the identification of doping products or methods”.

Pre-race blood tests were compared with each rider’s UCI biological profile, with variations between the two determining the level of suspicion. The UCI was quick to point out there had been no actual detection of illegal substances.

Soooo that makes it ok does it??? What’s the point of the passport if they don't act on "overwhelming evidence"? What more do these impotent sycophants require? We know about a similar finding re Contador. How many others are the UCI conveniently sweeping under the carpet?

 

[peterst6906]

I forgot about that one....so why aren't they looking more carefully at Rogers? I figure White must have put his hand up to take the bullet....

It might happen:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...eview-australians-conduct-20121014-27kzk.html

From only 12 hours ago, so there are still developments to come in Australia and the 4 Corners program tonight might provide further momentum to the current reporting and push for a broader review.

 

[MattCla]

Yes. Jonkers himself: 2000: US Postal Service (United States)

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239661077326094336


Please tell me Lance did not dope when he was training in 2000.




I ain't your buddy.

https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239661171282677760


https://twitter.com/patjonker/status/239661263372836864


ETA: August/September, 2012

Just FYI: EPO, testosterone and cortisone are the three drugs that can make a man achieve what @lancearmstrong achieved. But Jonker is right - it's not just the drugs. There's a whole bunch of bribes and UCI complicity that is required also, a good doctor to match the drugs to the training program, suppliers of those drugs, drug delivery people. In fact you could almost say an entire conspiracy would be required, beyond just the drugs.

I wasn't there though. So feel free to disregard anything I say.

I am well aware of Jonker's tweets which are embarrissing to say the least. I am also well aware that he trained with him for 6-7 hours up 'some mountain' in France... My issue is your claim that Jonkers is a drug cheat with NO evidence what-so-ever. Just guilt by association.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I am well aware of Jonker's tweets which are embarrissing to say the least. I am also well aware that he trained with him for 6-7 hours up 'some mountain' in France... My issue is your claim that Jonkers is a drug cheat with NO evidence what-so-ever. Just guilt by association.

It's guilt by logic, not association. If Jonker was training with that master's dude who doped for the grand fondo in NY - no probs. Pat can ride with him for 6-7 hrs/day and no question in my mind he could do it clean. Even associated with a doper.

What I said was,

If Jonker was training with a doped up LA in the mountains day in day out, he's either doped enough to keep up, or stronger than LA.

It's just logic. If a doped LA is training 6-7 hrs in the mountains, he's not doing a coffee shop ride. If he's training in the mountains, and he's doped, and you can ride next to him 6-7 hrs/day, then you are either:
1. as strong clean as armstrong is doped OR
2. doped yourself.

Hence, "doped or stronger than LA". You seem to have ignored the second bit. So I am repeating it here to show you I allowed for both possibilities in this logic problem.

Tell me LA was training clean, and I am prepared to accept that Jonker could be as strong as LA clean, and hence ride next to him 6-7hrs/day clean. But then I would wonder why he was not chosen to ride the Tour.

But LA? LA who already won a Tour in a dominating fashion? LA who was doing test, cort and EPO and got caught using them? LA who was being trained by Ferrari? To ride next to him for 6-7 hrs/day in the mountains, you need to be special, doped, or both.

There is another possibility: LA trained for 6 days, 6-7hrs/day, and Pat did 3 days, then had a break while the A team kept going. I read somethign similar in a cycling magazine many years ago. But Pat is not clarifying this. So I did not initially consider it.

Pat's tweet seems to be saying:

Lance was clean, coz I was clean and I did the same training he did.

Lance was not clean. So the argument fails. Unless clean Pat was as strong as doped Lance.

Logic.

 

[Galic Ho]

I am disgusted with Matt White, the coward. Sitting there pretending to be clean, running a team, talking to the press, just disgraceful cowardly behavior.

This dirty rotten drug cheat has brought great shame upon Australian Cycling. I hope he is ostracised from the sport. I wouldnt spit on him if he was on fire, the dirty rotten stinking drug cheat.

Adn yet you've been here since 2009 and all silent. Why now dude?

Oh that's right, jumping on the bandwagon. So your reaction just needs to be given time to simmer. Guess USADA can be thanked for opening the eyes of many. Still there are way too many new faces around here posting who have old accounts but been eerily silent.

For what it is worth, you and other like minded people should be allowed to vent, but not paid too much attention too until you get back to planet earth. This sh1te has been obvious for a long time. Especially with the Aussies. Your reaction is really a joke...they're all doping champ. All of them. Evans, Gerrans, Rogers and Porte. Two worked with Ferrari, albeit only once with Cadel, Rogers for a long time (old news) and Gerrans use to go riding in Colorado with Lance and Levi (and we know who trained them).

So what are you going to do if the trail leads to Cadel? He's quiet because he can have his Tour win stripped. He won't say a damn thing. Nor will Rogers. Rogers talks, Sky go down. It is that simple. Rogers is part of the Sky inner sanctum and they are the four dirtiest riders ATM.

White at least isn't working for now. Can't say that about Riis can we?

@blackcat. Sure White's wife Jane Saville was for a period there one of the elite women walkers. But that was 12 years ago around Sydney. That sport is super dirty, just like all running disciplines. She needn't have gone far to get some nifty drugs. It's not coincidence that her decline coincided around when White left USPS and also his ability took a nose dive. Not that he was clean at Cofidis.

As for Gainsford Taylor. Was a member of Parliament, in the Legislative Assembly in Victoria, her home state. That's no small thing. It is big. Very big. She created controversy for being the first female to breastfeed in session. Her PB in the 100m is 11.12 sec. The current Aussie champ Melissa Breen struggles to make 11.3 sec and her PB is either 11.27 or 11.28 sec. Gainsford Taylor is right on the cusp of what I think is the maximal time a clean and uber gifted runner can make (11.1 BTW and for men 9.9). Now contrast with the Jamaicans and Americans from this year. Particularly Carmelita Jeter. Back in 2003-2004 her PB was barely over 11.5 sec. In one season, after a massive physical transformation, she shaved half a second off and this year she ran sub 10.8. Contrast Gainsford Taylors 200m PB with Alyson Felix this years fastest runner. Felix has a PB of 21.69 sec and ran 21.88 in the Olympic final for Gold. Gainsford Taylors best was 22.23, meaning she'd have made fourth at the Olympics this year on that time. Note Felix was the only woman to crack 22 seconds this year at a major meet. Now to contrast with a legendary Aussie runner Betty Cuthbert. Olympic Gold in Melbourne and PB's of 11.4 and 23.2 respectively for the 100m and 200m.

So was Gainsford Taylor dirty? Probably, but nothing like the Jamaicans now are doing and were doing, let alone what the Americans have done and still are doing. Gainsford Taylor physique wise was always really solid, so there is that and she doesn't have an iota of the technique and form let alone natural build the current Aussie champ has and Breen is much slower. So yeah, you have a point. Hackett? Bahahaha. Don't make me laugh. If he didn't leave Dennis Cottrell he'd have 3 gold medals for the 1500m. He was defending the Chinese 400IM girl on tv FFS. Was really, really painful to listen to. Nice guy but I have no doubt he wishes no doping questions or talk is EVER mentioned by anyone. And I know why.

On this note, ASADA needs to start getting their act together. Maybe if we clean up house, the Brits will be forced to and we all know they are the dirtiest English speaking nation at the moment. If Matt White were Danish he'd have no explaining to do. Perhaps also if he were Dutch or Belgian. I'm going to go see what SBS are saying on Cycling Central. They better be talking...they were dead silent in August. Matt White is tame. Someone should really be onto Rogers, heck even Scott Sunderland. He has a lot to answer for. Someone should definitely bring Del Moral up. This whole business with USADA and now White makes JV and Garmin appear to be squeaky clean (they aren't) and I have a problem with that. The 'Pro cycling is now Clean' card keeps getting used. Worse, by the dodgy questionable tools like Brailsford...not good. I'll give it time though. Some journalists are waking up

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Adn yet you've been here since 2009 and all silent. Why now dude?

Oh that's right, jumping on the bandwagon. So your reaction just needs to be given time to simmer. Guess USADA can be thanked for opening the eyes of many. Still there are way too many new faces around here posting who have old accounts but been eerily silent.

For what it is worth, you and other like minded people should be allowed to vent, but not paid too much attention too until you get back to planet earth. This sh1te has been obvious for a long time. Especially with the Aussies. Your reaction is really a joke...they're all doping champ. All of them. Evans, Gerrans, Rogers and Porte. Two worked with Ferrari, albeit only once with Cadel, Rogers for a long time (old news) and Gerrans use to go riding in Colorado with Lance and Levi (and we know who trained them).

So what are you going to do if the trail leads to Cadel? He's quiet because he can have his Tour win stripped. He won't say a damn thing. Nor will Rogers. Rogers talks, Sky go down. It is that simple. Rogers is part of the Sky inner sanctum and they are the four dirtiest riders ATM.

White at least isn't working for now. Can't say that about Riis can we?

@blackcat. Sure White's wife Jane Saville was for a period there one of the elite women walkers. But that was 12 years ago around Sydney. That sport is super dirty, just like all running disciplines. She needn't have gone far to get some nifty drugs. It's not coincidence that her decline coincided around when White left USPS and also his ability took a nose dive. Not that he was clean at Cofidis.

As for Gainsford Taylor. Was a member of Parliament, in the Legislative Assembly in Victoria, her home state. That's no small thing. It is big. Very big. She created controversy for being the first female to breastfeed in session. Her PB in the 100m is 11.12 sec. The current Aussie champ Melissa Breen struggles to make 11.3 sec and her PB is either 11.27 or 11.28 sec. Gainsford Taylor is right on the cusp of what I think is the maximal time a clean and uber gifted runner can make (11.1 BTW and for men 9.9). Now contrast with the Jamaicans and Americans from this year. Particularly Carmelita Jeter. Back in 2003-2004 her PB was barely over 11.5 sec. In one season, after a massive physical transformation, she shaved half a second off and this year she ran sub 10.8. Contrast Gainsford Taylors 200m PB with Alyson Felix this years fastest runner. Felix has a PB of 21.69 sec and ran 21.88 in the Olympic final for Gold. Gainsford Taylors best was 22.23, meaning she'd have made fourth at the Olympics this year on that time. Note Felix was the only woman to crack 22 seconds this year at a major meet. Now to contrast with a legendary Aussie runner Betty Cuthbert. Olympic Gold in Melbourne and PB's of 11.4 and 23.2 respectively for the 100m and 200m.

So was Gainsford Taylor dirty? Probably, but nothing like the Jamaicans now are doing and were doing, let alone what the Americans have done and still are doing. Gainsford Taylor physique wise was always really solid, so there is that and she doesn't have an iota of the technique and form let alone natural build the current Aussie champ has and Breen is much slower. So yeah, you have a point. Hackett? Bahahaha. Don't make me laugh. If he didn't leave Dennis Cottrell he'd have 3 gold medals for the 1500m. He was defending the Chinese 400IM girl on tv FFS. Was really, really painful to listen to. Nice guy but I have no doubt he wishes no doping questions or talk is EVER mentioned by anyone. And I know why.

On this note, ASADA needs to start getting their act together. Maybe if we clean up house, the Brits will be forced to and we all know they are the dirtiest English speaking nation at the moment. If Matt White were Danish he'd have no explaining to do. Perhaps also if he were Dutch or Belgian. I'm going to go see what SBS are saying on Cycling Central. They better be talking...they were dead silent in August. Matt White is tame. Someone should really be onto Rogers, heck even Scott Sunderland. He has a lot to answer for. Someone should definitely bring Del Moral up. This whole business with USADA and now White makes JV and Garmin appear to be squeaky clean (they aren't) and I have a problem with that. The 'Pro cycling is now Clean' card keeps getting used. Worse, by the dodgy questionable tools like Brailsford...not good. I'll give it time though. Some journalists are waking up

But CA president Klaus Mueller said yesterday it could be reopened should any new evidence come to light. ''With them [ASADA], it's always open. If they get information [and] subsequently it implicates people, then they will act on it,'' he said.
Asked if ASADA could go back and look at Davis' case, Mueller said: ''Absolutely. As I understand it, he has certainly not been cleared for all time.''
Mueller said he was ''not particularly'' wanting Davis to be put under another probe. But that ''generally, we would like ASADA to go through the evidence that has come out from the USADA inquiry and to then determine who needs to be [subjected to] an investigation''.
Rogers, meanwhile, was twice named in the USADA report in the affidavit of American cyclist Levi Leipheimer, a former teammate of Armstrong who has been banned for life by the agency and stripped of all his race results since August, 1998 - including seven Tour de France titles from 1999 to 2005.
Rogers, who rides for the British Sky team, was named in reference to his attendance at training camps on Tenerife in the Canary Islands in May and June 2005 to prepare for the Tour under the guidance of Italian doctor Michele Ferrari, who the USADA has also banned for life.
Rogers last week denied ever being offered or using drugs from Ferrari and that he only drew on the Italian for training programs. But the ACT rider admitted that being linked with him may have ''tainted'' his reputation.
Mueller said he was confident the outcome of the CA inquiry into Rogers' association with Ferrari, after it was revealed during the 2006 Tour, was the correct one, and that a doping watchdog review of the US report would reinforce that.
''Mick, I thought, gave a pretty good response to that [association with Ferrari]. Mick has always come across, to me, as one of the good guys. I have got no reason to believe that was anything but the truth,'' he said.
''His problem is, if you lie down with dogs, you end up with fleas. I am not sure that I am terribly uncomfortable about the way we have dealt with Mick over the years.''

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycl...case-sought-20121014-27l0v.html#ixzz29ME0UrCs

 

[One Eyed Aussie]

As for Gainsford Taylor. Was a member of Parliament, in the Legislative Assembly in Victoria, her home state.

That's not true. Melinda Gainsford Taylor's home state is NSW.

The athlete who was a member of the Victorian parliament and breastfed her baby was the winter olympics aerial skier - Kirstie Marshall.

 

[hrotha]

Jonker got his best results riding for ONCE, whose doping program at the time was even more extensive than US Postal's some years later according to Bruyneel, and just before the introduction of the hematocrit cap. We also know the ONCE program at the time, and long after that, was team-wide in its most literal sense. He never did much else later in his career.

Not only do I think he doped. I think he was probably one of the heaviest superchargers/best responders of 1996.