Men Elite Road Race - UCI RWC Doha 2016

[glassmoon]

Re: Re:

I can count every spectator.

Good point. Shows it's about money and not about cycling. The athletes must feel weird racing with no spectators at a world champs.

Has any rider spoken against it yet? In my book they're all guilty of this charade.

by that logic, is also every TV spectator watching this charade too :idea:

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

I can count every spectator.

Good point. Shows it's about money and not about cycling. The athletes must feel weird racing with no spectators at a world champs.

Has any rider spoken against it yet? In my book they're all guilty of this charade.

by that logic, is also every TV spectator watching this charade too :idea:

False comparison. I didn't say every rider in the race was part of the charade. I said they're part of it because they haven't spoken against it/shown discontent with the location chosen or the entire corrupt and money-grabbing approach to this event. But whatever, I'm not watching it, so that fits too as far as I'm concerned.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

A lot of nonsense about the heat written here. There are hotter stages in the Vuelta every year on courses which go over the mountains. Going at 50km/h in 35 degree heat isn't so demanding that the race should be changed. Perhaps if some Northern European riders don't like it, then it's tough luck. No-one sympathises with the Mediterranean riders who don't like the cold and wet of the cobbled classics. This is basically the other side of the same coin.

Plus, as mentioned, it's literally the only thing that makes this course somewhat selective.

You are the one talking nonsense ...35 degrees in Spain with houses, trees,shade etc is so much different to desert heat of 40 degrees cel with no shade...And winds make it hotter
People in Spain cycle their bikes in the heat as it is not an issue but no one goes out in the sun in Doha ...the locals are wise

And going from Italy to northern Europe to ride in the cold and cobbles is not the same thing as this is not about comfort but safety...guess it easy from an armchair

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

Just shows what poor athletes women are. And they want equal pay for being unable to do the same distance as the men as a much slower pace.

now that's just silly.

It is. Is also anyone else than me genuinely surprised that the best women teams could race with the men today and would not finish last?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

There's no way they can do this at 260km after watching the women's TTT. It would be absurd. Insane heat with no respite sections, dry heat, no moisture. No fans, no racing. I'm pretty angry about it, having seen it. You had Mieke Kröger, who in most circumstances is a TT machine, just hit the wall and have to be helped out before she collapsed. You had two Twenty16 riders implode in the final kilometre. You had riders vomiting everywhere, and worst of all, Anouska Koster clearly passed out from heat exhaustion on the bike and veered into a wall, having a horrible crash where she landed on her face, since unlike Kröger the team only had four riders left and she couldn't let go. The team and the medics, rightly, wouldn't let her get back on the bike, but should never have been allowed to get to that stage. To be doing this at 7 hours, the pace would have to be so relaxed at the start to make it doable that it would be an almost unwatchably dull spectacle.

i don't agree
with this temperature, it won't be any problem

i love the women cycling but sadly you could see many were not prepared (possibly medically) for such conditions. there were no problems at all in the men's race. it''s hot but not hotter than a stage in malaga or in the pyrenees.


what it's absolutely disgusting (almost criminal) is to not have ambulances ready at the finish.

The Men's race was also later on, so when the bigger teams were going the conditions were less excessive. They won't be able to race a 7hr 260km race without it going into the hottest parts of the day - the women were starting at 14:10 local time, so not exactly the midday sun either. Are they planning to have the men finish on Sunday at 9pm local time or something?

We do get this kind of heat in the Volta and some of the Vuelta's southern stages too, but it's also not that dissimilar from that Tour of California stage a couple of years ago when riders were collapsing. As has been pointed out the type of heat is different, but in addition to this, a lack of moisture or wind because of today's weather also exacerbated matters.

I guess no one at UCI will do anything till riders have a serious mishap or worse

Luckily, though she's pretty banged up, Anouska Koster didn't suffer any major injuries from this. But it could very easily have been a serious mishap. The lack of medical provisions from the organizers is absolutely ridiculous, though.

 

[winkybiker]

Re: Re:

A lot of nonsense about the heat written here. There are hotter stages in the Vuelta every year on courses which go over the mountains. Going at 50km/h in 35 degree heat isn't so demanding that the race should be changed. Perhaps if some Northern European riders don't like it, then it's tough luck. No-one sympathises with the Mediterranean riders who don't like the cold and wet of the cobbled classics. This is basically the other side of the same coin.

Plus, as mentioned, it's literally the only thing that makes this course somewhat selective.

Someone may understand a bit more of this subject than me, but AFAIK it's not the same to ride at 35ºC in Spain and in Qatar. In Spain you have some places with trees, buildings, shadows, etc. and in the desert you don't have that. In addition to that, there is less humidity in Qatar, which aggravates the effects of the higher temperatures.

The lack of humidity actually helps. Evaporative cooling is much more effective. Dry heat is easier to deal with.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

A lot of nonsense about the heat written here. There are hotter stages in the Vuelta every year on courses which go over the mountains. Going at 50km/h in 35 degree heat isn't so demanding that the race should be changed. Perhaps if some Northern European riders don't like it, then it's tough luck. No-one sympathises with the Mediterranean riders who don't like the cold and wet of the cobbled classics. This is basically the other side of the same coin.

Plus, as mentioned, it's literally the only thing that makes this course somewhat selective.

Someone may understand a bit more of this subject than me, but AFAIK it's not the same to ride at 35ºC in Spain and in Qatar. In Spain you have some places with trees, buildings, shadows, etc. and in the desert you don't have that. In addition to that, there is less humidity in Qatar, which aggravates the effects of the higher temperatures.

The lack of humidity actually helps. Evaporative cooling is much more effective. Dry heat is easier to deal with.

True, but the problem is that there literally is no shade anywhere. And the effect of the sun in Qatar is stronger than in Spain, if you know what I mean (I worded it quite badly)

And to DFA, the comparison from a health perspective is very different. You can protect yourself from cold temperatures much easier than from hot temperatures, and collapsing from heatstroke or dehydration isn't probably worse than hyperthermia, which is easily fixed and less fatal. Also, you forget that there is an EWP for extreme cold, but this is when is it actually cold, like minus ten

 

[Kwibus]

Kittel gets a lot of crap for being a sprinter that can't do anything else, but the guy was among the final 4 and was pulling the final 500mtr.

Respect.

 

[Kwibus]

I still think the TTT is a great and beautiful discipline. Too bad they don't fit into GT's very well imo, as a discipline in it's own it's really nice.

 

[Netserk]

They could do like Beijing and have a shower section.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

A lot of nonsense about the heat written here. There are hotter stages in the Vuelta every year on courses which go over the mountains. Going at 50km/h in 35 degree heat isn't so demanding that the race should be changed. Perhaps if some Northern European riders don't like it, then it's tough luck. No-one sympathises with the Mediterranean riders who don't like the cold and wet of the cobbled classics. This is basically the other side of the same coin.

Plus, as mentioned, it's literally the only thing that makes this course somewhat selective.

Someone may understand a bit more of this subject than me, but AFAIK it's not the same to ride at 35ºC in Spain and in Qatar. In Spain you have some places with trees, buildings, shadows, etc. and in the desert you don't have that. In addition to that, there is less humidity in Qatar, which aggravates the effects of the higher temperatures.

The lack of humidity actually helps. Evaporative cooling is much more effective. Dry heat is easier to deal with.

True, but the problem is that there literally is no shade anywhere. And the effect of the sun in Qatar is stronger than in Spain, if you know what I mean (I worded it quite badly)

And to DFA, the comparison from a health perspective is very different. You can protect yourself from cold temperatures much easier than from hot temperatures, and collapsing from heatstroke or dehydration isn't probably worse than hyperthermia, which is easily fixed and less fatal. Also, you forget that there is an EWP for extreme cold, but this is when is it actually cold, like minus ten

Thank you for making a sensible and, one would imagine, obvious point.

 

[May0maniac]

Kittel gets a lot of crap for being a sprinter that can't do anything else, but the guy was among the final 4 and was pulling the final 500mtr.

Respect.

People often get frustrated with him because the guy used to be known for his big engine before turning pro (MJ ITT WC in 2005 and 2006, 3rd and 4th in 2 U23 WC ITTs, European U23 TT champion and twice U23 TT NC).
You'd assume that someone with that kind of engine would be able to handle a harder race/ still be able to sprint after a hard race, but that's not the chase with him and one of the main reasons why he gets called a one trick pony.
That said, today he was a beast, that was a really impressive performance.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I still think the TTT is a great and beautiful discipline. Too bad they don't fit into GT's very well imo, as a discipline in it's own it's really nice.

I think a TTT is kinda meh as a standalone - the intrigue of who will lose valuable time is what keeps it interesting to me. So needless to say, I don't really get excited over today.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

A lot of nonsense about the heat written here. There are hotter stages in the Vuelta every year on courses which go over the mountains. Going at 50km/h in 35 degree heat isn't so demanding that the race should be changed. Perhaps if some Northern European riders don't like it, then it's tough luck. No-one sympathises with the Mediterranean riders who don't like the cold and wet of the cobbled classics. This is basically the other side of the same coin.

Plus, as mentioned, it's literally the only thing that makes this course somewhat selective.

Someone may understand a bit more of this subject than me, but AFAIK it's not the same to ride at 35ºC in Spain and in Qatar. In Spain you have some places with trees, buildings, shadows, etc. and in the desert you don't have that. In addition to that, there is less humidity in Qatar, which aggravates the effects of the higher temperatures.

The lack of humidity actually helps. Evaporative cooling is much more effective. Dry heat is easier to deal with.

True, but the problem is that there literally is no shade anywhere. And the effect of the sun in Qatar is stronger than in Spain, if you know what I mean (I worded it quite badly)

And to DFA, the comparison from a health perspective is very different. You can protect yourself from cold temperatures much easier than from hot temperatures, and collapsing from heatstroke or dehydration isn't probably worse than hyperthermia, which is easily fixed and less fatal. Also, you forget that there is an EWP for extreme cold, but this is when is it actually cold, like minus ten

I struggle to believe that the effect of the sun in Qatar in mid October is stronger than the effect of the sun in southern Spain in August.

And although there may be shade in places in Spain (although in Andalucia or La Mancha - good luck finding it!), the routes are generally hilly, so the average speed is much lower and there's way less cooling effect from the air resistance. No one is going to get heat stroke or severe dehydration in 35 degrees in Qatar. These are professional riders with loads of sports scientists backing them up. The Marmotte amateur sportive last year was in near 40 degree heat with most rides taking over 10 hours to complete it while riding close to their limit, and with pretty inadequate refreshments - and hardly anyone got heatstroke or severe dehyrdation. It's not an issue in a world championships.

And, ultimately, 35 degrees just isn't that hot. It's a slightly above average summer's day for much of southern Europe. It's not like we're talking 50 degrees. Some riders may notice a drop in performance because of the heat - which is good - because it is literally the only selective thing about the race - but it's way less dangerous than many other things which happen in every single bike race.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

There's no way they can do this at 260km after watching the women's TTT. It would be absurd. Insane heat with no respite sections, dry heat, no moisture. No fans, no racing. I'm pretty angry about it, having seen it. You had Mieke Kröger, who in most circumstances is a TT machine, just hit the wall and have to be helped out before she collapsed. You had two Twenty16 riders implode in the final kilometre. You had riders vomiting everywhere, and worst of all, Anouska Koster clearly passed out from heat exhaustion on the bike and veered into a wall, having a horrible crash where she landed on her face, since unlike Kröger the team only had four riders left and she couldn't let go. The team and the medics, rightly, wouldn't let her get back on the bike, but should never have been allowed to get to that stage. To be doing this at 7 hours, the pace would have to be so relaxed at the start to make it doable that it would be an almost unwatchably dull spectacle.

i don't agree
with this temperature, it won't be any problem

i love the women cycling but sadly you could see many were not prepared (possibly medically) for such conditions. there were no problems at all in the men's race. it''s hot but not hotter than a stage in malaga or in the pyrenees.


what it's absolutely disgusting (almost criminal) is to not have ambulances ready at the finish.

The Men's race was also later on, so when the bigger teams were going the conditions were less excessive. They won't be able to race a 7hr 260km race without it going into the hottest parts of the day - the women were starting at 14:10 local time, so not exactly the midday sun either. Are they planning to have the men finish on Sunday at 9pm local time or something?

We do get this kind of heat in the Volta and some of the Vuelta's southern stages too, but it's also not that dissimilar from that Tour of California stage a couple of years ago when riders were collapsing. As has been pointed out the type of heat is different, but in addition to this, a lack of moisture or wind because of today's weather also exacerbated matters.

I guess no one at UCI will do anything till riders have a serious mishap or worse

Luckily, though she's pretty banged up, Anouska Koster didn't suffer any major injuries from this. But it could very easily have been a serious mishap. The lack of medical provisions from the organizers is absolutely ridiculous, though.

260km in 7hrs on a completely flat course? That's 37km/h. If they average that pace then they might as well smoke a few cigars and have a couple of sherries along the way because everyone in the peloton will be averaging less than 100 watts. Heat will certainly not be an issue then.

And dry heat feels cooler than when there is moisture in the air at the same temperature. So, at 35 degrees, it's basically a slightly above average July or August day for the riders living in Monaco, Andorra, Spain and Italy (most of the pro peloton)- nothing more than that.

 

[Netserk]

"I struggle to believe that the effect of the sun in Qatar in mid October is stronger than the effect of the sun in southern Spain in August."

According to the Danish Meteorological Institute, the UV-index in Malaga in mid-August is 8.7 (https://www.dmi.dk/vejr/sundhedsvejr/uv-indeks/uv-normal-august/), while it is 7.9 in Dubai (nearest Qatar of the cities on the list) in mid-October (https://www.dmi.dk/vejr/sundhedsvejr/uv-indeks/uv-normal-oktober/)

So yeah, in southern Spain in August, the sun is stronger than for the Worlds this coming week. And earlier in the summer the sun is of course even stronger than in August.

...

Given that it will be a flat course, riders will always be cooled a bit by the wind, so the California stage isn't comparable (it just isn't the same to ride on a flat course and on a steep climb with a slight tailwind). Afaik the only issue is acclimatization (and perhaps a lack of shade, though I guess there will be some on the circuit because of the buildings?).

 

[DFA123]

Re:

"I struggle to believe that the effect of the sun in Qatar in mid October is stronger than the effect of the sun in southern Spain in August."

According to the Danish Meteorological Institute, the UV-index in Malaga in mid-August is 8.7 (https://www.dmi.dk/vejr/sundhedsvejr/uv-indeks/uv-normal-august/), while it is 7.9 in Dubai (nearest Qatar of the cities on the list) in mid-October (https://www.dmi.dk/vejr/sundhedsvejr/uv-indeks/uv-normal-oktober/)

So yeah, in southern Spain in August, the sun is stronger than for the Worlds this coming week. And earlier in the summer the sun is of course even stronger than in August.

...

Given that it will be a flat course, riders will always be cooled a bit by the wind, so the California stage isn't comparable. Afaik the only issue is acclimatization.

Nice find. Good to see some facts putting the risks into perspective. Looking at some of those figures, I think the focus for the sun brigade should really be on the Tour Down Under in January.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

So yeah, in southern Spain in August, the sun is stronger than for the Worlds this coming week. And earlier in the summer the sun is of course even stronger than in August.

When do they race in southern Spain earlier in the summer tho? The Volta is probably the hottest Euro race. The Vuelta TTT in 2012 started in 45º heat because of an unseasonable heatwave (that was in Pamplona), but generally starts in late August nowadays anyhow. Altitude often helps in the Vuelta for some parts of stages meaning the average temperature is a bit less. The hilly nature probably helps in a way simply because it creates descents as well, so there's a bit of respite for the legs whereas in today's TTT the abject lack of a chance for riders to stop pedalling (even most of the corners and roundabouts were wide enough that they were still going) may have played a factor. While in many areas of Andalucía and La Mancha the péloton rides through some pretty featureless, shade-free landscape, there's also plenty of craggy and mountainous landscape in the south of the country, which offers more shade and also rest periods. Apart from the Vuelta when it goes there (which it didn't this year of course), there isn't any racing in that part of Spain in the summer; the Vuelta a Andalucía and Vuelta a Murcia are both in the early season, the only height-of-summer Spanish pro races are in the Basque country (Ordizia, Getxo and Clásica San Sebastián) and the Vuelta a Burgos. Likely because a stage race in, say, Huelva in the middle of July would be pretty damned uncomfortable.

It's probably also the case that there are simply comparatively few women's races in heat such as that, and there won't have been any for a number of weeks, so yes, acclimatization can be one of the biggest problems. Far less of the women's pros are resident in the places like Cataluña, Monaco and Italy than the men, and that will obviously play a big role too; as the startlist was so limited and we didn't see a number of the teams who may have dealt better with the heat - Alé-Cipollini, for example - it's harder to draw conclusions. The Giro Rosa last year got pretty horrendous at times and riders were suffering badly, but not like today despite lower temperatures. The full-on nature of a TTT as opposed to in a péloton where sometimes you can lower your workload, have a chat, and take on more adequate sustenance, certainly contributes as well (as well as the fact that 40km is a lot longer than your average women's TTT, so effort management will have been a factor, especially for Koster as she couldn't let go with two riders already dropped).

I think we should all agree that regardless of the issues of competing in that level of heat, to be as lacking in medical provisions as they were is downright terrible. What was the problem, were they unable to get ambulances to the finish because the fan was blocking the road?

 

[Tonton]

Demare ftw, Netserk to start a "moral winner" thread, Nacer DQed .

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

260km in 7hrs on a completely flat course? That's 37km/h. If they average that pace then they might as well smoke a few cigars and have a couple of sherries along the way because everyone in the peloton will be averaging less than 100 watts. Heat will certainly not be an issue then.

And dry heat feels cooler than when there is moisture in the air at the same temperature. So, at 35 degrees, it's basically a slightly above average July or August day for the riders living in Monaco, Andorra, Spain and Italy (most of the pro peloton)- nothing more than that.

Wouldn't that be illegal?

 

[rata de sentina]

Re:

According to the Danish Meteorological Institute, the UV-index in Malaga in mid-August is 8.7 (https://www.dmi.dk/vejr/sundhedsvejr/uv-indeks/uv-normal-august/), while it is 7.9 in Dubai (nearest Qatar of the cities on the list) in mid-October (https://www.dmi.dk/vejr/sundhedsvejr/uv-indeks/uv-normal-oktober/)

The UV index is not an appropriate measure to use, it is just an estimate of incident UV radiation at ground level.
Dubai might just have more ozone above it.

The Heat Index or Heat Comfort Index is more relevant.

The average August max in Malaga is about 30 whereas Doha is about 35.

I live in a hot country and I've visited Doha and other gulf states but definitely not for pleasure. I consider them to be hell on earth. This is all about sports administrators with their venal snouts in the money trough and nothing else. There is absolutely no sporting reason for this.

 

[Bushman]

Who the hell is Marco Mathis?

 

[kingjr]

Re:

Who the hell is Marco Mathis?

He was 3rd in the German U23 ITT this year, 56 seconds behind Schachmann. Now he's 18 seconds ahead.

 

[nuvolablu]

Re:

Who the hell is Marco Mathis?

https://twitter.com/ryanmullen9/status/785420760110235648

 

[Vesica]

Is there any live timing website? (for the ITT now) Couldn't find anything on the UCI website...

Found the livestream...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmq1U_SCnKs

but no live timing..