Men Elite Road Race - UCI RWC Doha 2016

[Monte]

Apparently Kristoff had been shouting for Boasson to start lead out at 500 meters.. Kept screaming to him until it was to late. Thats why Kristoff kept his Wheel. I dont think Kristoff would have won anyway, maybe 3-4 , but still its very strange cause Boasson is such a Nice guy. IT seems he is sprinting for his own chances to me. Maybe its pay back when Eddy could not ride With GVA last year and got his medal ruined by team orders.. Who knows. If this was Demare and Bouhanni we all know it would be legit criticism though


AS a Norwegian im very happy With whats growing in Norwegian cycling and Worlds in Bergen is gonna set records in spectators ever! This is when Lance came for a visit to Oslo -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0QqiX6PPKY



Cycling season is over, its depressive!. Luckily i have Stage 12 in TDF in 5 different Languages, plus U23 Norway domination in 4 diff Languages , thats a couple more weeks of fun repeats

 

[Monte]

Re: Re:

1-1 in the mutual sabotage pact between EBH and Kristoff. Last year Kristoff´s orders lost a medal for EBH, so now he just decided to ignore them and then Kristoff lost a medal.

EBH should be the one complaining - clearly Kristoff should have been leading him out

It was decided before the race ofc, its mutiny by EBH. EBH should get a warning. And we have the Worlds NeXT year in Bergen, no way Kristoff is gonna trust Boasson ever again. Maybe Boasson got the same deal as Kanstantsin Siutsou from Cav? Who knows.

 

[Netserk]

Re:

Apparently Kristoff had been shouting for Boasson to start lead out at 500 meters.. Kept screaming to him until it was to late. Thats why Kristoff kept his Wheel. I dont think Kristoff would have won anyway, maybe 3-4 , but still its very strange cause Boasson is such a Nice guy. IT seems he is sprinting for his own chances to me. Maybe its pay back when Eddy could not ride With GVA last year and got his medal ruined by team orders.. Who knows. If this was Demare and Bouhanni we all know it would be legit criticism though


AS a Norwegian im very happy With whats growing in Norwegian cycling and Worlds in Bergen is gonna set records in spectators ever! This is when Lance came for a visit to Oslo -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0QqiX6PPKY



Cycling season is over, its depressive!. Luckily i have Stage 12 in TDF in 5 different Languages, plus U23 Norway domination in 4 diff Languages , thats a couple more weeks of fun repeats

There's no radios for the worlds (at least last year). It was a case of Eddy being dumb. Team duties or not, he'd have to cooperate with Greg and catch Sagan. Then he could wheelsuck them back to the bunch or play his own cards.

 

[Monte]

Re: Re:

Apparently Kristoff had been shouting for Boasson to start lead out at 500 meters.. Kept screaming to him until it was to late. Thats why Kristoff kept his Wheel. I dont think Kristoff would have won anyway, maybe 3-4 , but still its very strange cause Boasson is such a Nice guy. IT seems he is sprinting for his own chances to me. Maybe its pay back when Eddy could not ride With GVA last year and got his medal ruined by team orders.. Who knows. If this was Demare and Bouhanni we all know it would be legit criticism though


AS a Norwegian im very happy With whats growing in Norwegian cycling and Worlds in Bergen is gonna set records in spectators ever! This is when Lance came for a visit to Oslo -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0QqiX6PPKY



Cycling season is over, its depressive!. Luckily i have Stage 12 in TDF in 5 different Languages, plus U23 Norway domination in 4 diff Languages , thats a couple more weeks of fun repeats

There's no radios for the worlds (at least last year). It was a case of Eddy being dumb. Team duties or not, he'd have to cooperate with Greg and catch Sagan. Then he could wheelsuck them back to the bunch or play his own cards.

Eddy had clear order to keep GVA wheel and not work, and he lost a medal on it ; simple. And this is the harsh reality. Stupidity has nothing to do with it. Ive seen this sundays sprint over and over again, u can see Kristoff scream .. and Eddy does nothing; he sprints for the line not for a leadout..

 

[Netserk]

Order from whom? When did he get the order? How did he get it?

Any non-*** would know that you can't mark a wheel you are not on (Sagan's in this case).

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

1) People lap up these stories because they want to believe Sagan is a great guy, and he's happy to feed it because it keeps people paying attention to him.

That's one possible explanation, another would be that he has sufficient self-awareness to try and not be seen in the same light as those other athletes you compared him to in an earlier post. It's what I would do if I was him, I'd make sure to hand out gifts every now and then, or offer them at least, to ensure future loyalty and to maintain a positive public image. Besides, it just feels good to try and help a teammate who would ride his heart out for you, irrespective of whether I was the better option or not; especially if I am the defending Champion and I'm aware that I will probably have plenty more opportunities in the future to win a 2nd title.

2) arguably irrelevant, because I don't think he would have done it. Besides, Mark Cavendish was a rock and an absolute star for Jonny Bellis, doesn't stop him being a total tool the rest of the time. Also, it makes no odds because he didn't do it, regardless of whether Kolar would have wanted him to or not.

I'm still curious whether it would change your assessment of his character if it were to happen in the future.

Come on guys, like Red Rick said, if you're not going to accept the answers there's no need for more questions.
.

Some answers lead to more questions.

while the press fawn all over him as he posts another stupid video just in case you forgot about him

Why do you watch them?


Btw, I just remembered, I still have a question for you about Simon Fourcade that was left unanswered earlier this year, I'll post it in the Nordic skiing/Biathlon thread.

 

[Monte]

Re:

Order from whom? When did he get the order? How did he get it?

Any non-*** would know that you can't mark a wheel you are not on (Sagan's in this case).

From Stig Kristiansen the chief of Norwegian National team, and every Norwegian knew it before the race. Boasson had orders to start the sprint for Kristoff 450-500 m before the line; he didnt .. He waited until 300 and sprinted to the line..

Simple, if u dont know it u dont know it. Now u do kid.

 

[Netserk]

Just my 2 off topic cents: Anyone is free to ask whatever questions to anyone (almost. Rules). Just like anyone is free to ignore questions or polity state that they choose not to answer them.

That said, given that I think of myself as someone capable of having a respectful conversation with LS about Sagan, I too wouldn't mind engaging in a discussion with them in the future about him.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Order from whom? When did he get the order? How did he get it?

Any non-*** would know that you can't mark a wheel you are not on (Sagan's in this case).

From Stig Kristiansen the chief of Norwegian National team, and every Norwegian knew it before the race. Boasson had orders to start the sprint for Kristoff 450-500 m before the line; he didnt .. He waited until 300 and sprinted to the line..

Simple, if u dont know it u dont know it. Now u do kid.

I'm talking about last year. Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I thought I was.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

That's one possible explanation, another would be that he has sufficient self-awareness to try and not be seen in the same light as those other athletes you compared him to in an earlier post. It's what I would do if I was him, I'd make sure to hand out gifts every now and then, or offer them at least, to ensure future loyalty and to maintain a positive public image. Besides, it just feels good to try and help a teammate who would ride his heart out for you, irrespective of whether I was the better option or not; especially if I am the defending Champion and I'm aware that I will probably have plenty more opportunities in the future to win a 2nd title.

I remain unconvinced. As I've said before, I believe a lot of his "growing up" to be "getting better at PR", and "maintaining a positive public image" does kind of match in with what I said too. At least unlike Northug he is defensible as a racer, Northug skis like Gerrans and acts like Sagan.

I'm still curious whether it would change your assessment of his character if it were to happen in the future.

I don't believe his humility is anything other than affected for the very PR purpose you mention above.

Why do you watch them?

I don't, but it doesn't mean they don't get discussed, posted and talked about on the front page of the site. It's not like you can just avoid the guy in cycling media. You visit a site, and there's his smug, punchable face in the banner ads. You switch on a race, and even if he's not there the commentators are rambling incessantly about how wonderful he is, and you go to a message board to talk about something that you watch to escape the drudgery and get insulted, mocked and made to feel like you're somehow defective for not loving a guy who looks, sounds and acts like a stereotypical jock off an MTV reality show. It's less so now because people have grown bored of it, but for a while (and a few posters like hrotha and Cannibal72 called them out on this), it sure seemed like some people would poke me on the subject of Sagan just so they could yell about how wrong and stupid I was when I responded. The implication that his behaviour is not just something we should tolerate, but that we should actively celebrate, actively aspire to, is deeply offensive to me, and anybody who actually does celebrate the kind of personality that I perceive him as being is not somebody I have any desire to interact with.

It's become a huge dent in my enjoyment of the sport and I would honestly rather watch the complete history of the Scheldeprijs start to finish than ever see or hear of him again.

 

[Ricco']

Re: Re:

Order from whom? When did he get the order? How did he get it?

Any non-*** would know that you can't mark a wheel you are not on (Sagan's in this case).

From Stig Kristiansen the chief of Norwegian National team, and every Norwegian knew it before the race. Boasson had orders to start the sprint for Kristoff 450-500 m before the line; he didnt .. He waited until 300 and sprinted to the line..

Simple, if u dont know it u dont know it. Now u do kid.

I'm talking about last year. Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I thought I was.

It was from the national coach too. I remember reading last year shortly after the worlds. It was something like "If you are ahead with someone don't pull because we have Kristoff in the bunch for the sprint. If the move doesn't get caught, go for it". It may not be the precise orders, but it's how I recall.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

Help me, is this Sagan starting to sprint to bridge into the first echelon? Watch the video here

https://youtu.be/ZeXEPOKKFps?t=2520

I do not have access to a HD version of the video and you can see it only for few seconds, but it does look his style.

Here is a shot of the moment of the original split

Is that not Sagan in blue being left behind?

 

[RedheadDane]

So, what do people think of the poor official who had to explain to Sagan, Cavendish, and Boonen how to do a podium-ceremony?

 

[Jaaanosik]

Re: Re:

That's one possible explanation, another would be that he has sufficient self-awareness to try and not be seen in the same light as those other athletes you compared him to in an earlier post. It's what I would do if I was him, I'd make sure to hand out gifts every now and then, or offer them at least, to ensure future loyalty and to maintain a positive public image. Besides, it just feels good to try and help a teammate who would ride his heart out for you, irrespective of whether I was the better option or not; especially if I am the defending Champion and I'm aware that I will probably have plenty more opportunities in the future to win a 2nd title.

I remain unconvinced. As I've said before, I believe a lot of his "growing up" to be "getting better at PR", and "maintaining a positive public image" does kind of match in with what I said too. At least unlike Northug he is defensible as a racer, Northug skis like Gerrans and acts like Sagan.

I'm still curious whether it would change your assessment of his character if it were to happen in the future.

I don't believe his humility is anything other than affected for the very PR purpose you mention above.

Why do you watch them?

I don't, but it doesn't mean they don't get discussed, posted and talked about on the front page of the site. It's not like you can just avoid the guy in cycling media. You visit a site, and there's his smug, punchable face in the banner ads. You switch on a race, and even if he's not there the commentators are rambling incessantly about how wonderful he is, and you go to a message board to talk about something that you watch to escape the drudgery and get insulted, mocked and made to feel like you're somehow defective for not loving a guy who looks, sounds and acts like a stereotypical jock off an MTV reality show. It's less so now because people have grown bored of it, but for a while (and a few posters like hrotha and Cannibal72 called them out on this), it sure seemed like some people would poke me on the subject of Sagan just so they could yell about how wrong and stupid I was when I responded. The implication that his behaviour is not just something we should tolerate, but that we should actively celebrate, actively aspire to, is deeply offensive to me, and anybody who actually does celebrate the kind of personality that I perceive him as being is not somebody I have any desire to interact with.

It's become a huge dent in my enjoyment of the sport and I would honestly rather watch the complete history of the Scheldeprijs start to finish than ever see or hear of him again.

I feel sorry for you man.
Maybe you should find a different sport.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Order from whom? When did he get the order? How did he get it?

Any non-*** would know that you can't mark a wheel you are not on (Sagan's in this case).

From Stig Kristiansen the chief of Norwegian National team, and every Norwegian knew it before the race. Boasson had orders to start the sprint for Kristoff 450-500 m before the line; he didnt .. He waited until 300 and sprinted to the line..

Simple, if u dont know it u dont know it. Now u do kid.

I'm talking about last year. Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I thought I was.

It was from the national coach too. I remember reading last year shortly after the worlds. It was something like "If you are ahead with someone don't pull because we have Kristoff in the bunch for the sprint. If the move doesn't get caught, go for it". It may not be the precise orders, but it's how I recall.

Which is exactly how I recalled it. He got the order before the race, since there weren't radios. At the moment when he was with Greg, and Sagan was up ahead, nobody told him what to do, so he had to think for himself.

My point was that while it was obvious what his role was (sabotage moves so Kristoff could win the sprint), he executed it as a moron. For Kristoff to win the race, Sagan had to be stopped. For Sagan to be stopped, he had to get up to him and then wheelsuck him. To get up to him he had to cooperate with Greg for a while. The conclusion is that Eddy fücked up. No way would any DS tell him to sit up in that situation if they actually had radios (but they didn't). So faulting the team's instructions for how poorly he raced just doesn't wash. After that race, Kristoff (and the team) should be more mad at Eddy than the other way around.

These were the original quotes I responded to:

Maybe its pay back when Eddy could not ride With GVA last year and got his medal ruined by team orders

Eddy had clear order to keep GVA wheel and not work, and he lost a medal on it ; simple. And this is the harsh reality. Stupidity has nothing to do with it.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Help me, is this Sagan starting to sprint to bridge into the first echelon? Watch the video here

https://youtu.be/ZeXEPOKKFps?t=2520

I do not have access to a HD version of the video and you can see it only for few seconds, but it does look his style.

Here is a shot of the moment of the original split

Is that not Sagan in blue being left behind?

I don't see Sagan on your image.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Do you think if Kolar had said "yes, please" Sagan would not have done it?

1.)Truthfully? I absolutely believe he wouldn't have.

2.)If he had, I would also absolutely believe he shouldn't have, either.

To 1.) Why not?

To 2.) What would it say about Sagan's personality in your view if he had done it?

1) People lap up these stories because they want to believe Sagan is a great guy, and he's happy to feed it because it keeps people paying attention to him. Leading out Michal Kolar to make an anonymous top 10 won't get him on MTV Cribs. It's easy to make a promise, but come the final kilometre of a World Championships race, if he doesn't realise he's the better option he's a complete idiot. I think Sagan is many things, but I'm not convinced that's one of them. People want to believe Sagan is nigh on flawless, and have grown very defensive about him to the point where any contrary opinion is hounded like a rogue Froome fan being set on in the Clinic.

2) arguably irrelevant, because I don't think he would have done it. Besides, Mark Cavendish was a rock and an absolute star for Jonny Bellis, doesn't stop him being a total tool the rest of the time. Also, it makes no odds because he didn't do it, regardless of whether Kolar would have wanted him to or not.

Come on guys, like Red Rick said, if you're not going to accept the answers there's no need for more questions. I've done my best to avoid the guy this year to try and stop getting into all this again. After the flare-up in the Sagan thread in March - my first incursion into the thread coming, like I say, long after people were mocking me in it - I decided, right, no more Sagan, all it does is keep getting me angry, as race threads devolve into page upon page of sycophantic "how can you not love Sagan?" "omg Sagan beast" "what a guy!" drivel as he makes his moves, while shouting down any contrary opinions regardless of their purpose, and the more he smoulders, pouts and mugs for the camera in a way that makes Thomas Voeckler look like David Moncoutié while the press fawn all over him as he posts another stupid video just in case you forgot about him, the more difficult I find it to keep a lid on it. And the thing is, because unlike other such characters in the recent past, he's incredibly versatile so he's hard to avoid (unlike, say, Cav, who only does his thing in a certain type of stage) so it's not like you can say "just stay out of (x) or (y) thread" - I've been staying away from the threads specifically about him since then deliberately. I know sometimes I'm spoiling for a rumble because when things aren't going well in real life for me I get a bit too invested, but that's why I've been trying to step away and not get into these arguments. Others I know are not Sagan fans aren't even bothering anymore, but I'm too dumb not to rise to it sometimes.

And you should stay in the future too. The guy is hell of a rider (but you didn't argue he's not), and a really interesting character, but I guess you can't see that for some reasons. So maybe the best thing is to avoid threads about him. Maybe time will change your opinion...

 

[Echoes]

I'm not sure Libs needs you to tell them what they should do or not. It's not easy though to keep ignoring the people whose only aim in life is to taunt you. Probably they are never reading any of LS's contribution to the Women racing thread or their Race Design thread. They have no idea about LS's knowledge of Pre-Wende Eastern Europe racing. I think it's envy if LS is so often baited for their hatred for Sagan Reading LS is just constantly burning my brains because I need to concentrate too much. LS is 10,000 times more interesting as a character than Sagan is. The most interesting characters are the most discrete ones, not the attention-seekers. At least for everybody who have had a good upbringing...

(Probably I shouldn't have posted this. Long hesitated but well I couldn't help)

 

[Jaaanosik]

I'm not sure Libs needs you to tell them what they should do or not. It's not easy though to keep ignoring the people whose only aim in life is to taunt you. Probably they are never reading any of LS's contribution to the Women racing thread or their Race Design thread. They have no idea about LS's knowledge of Pre-Wende Eastern Europe racing. I think it's envy if LS is so often baited for their hatred for Sagan Reading LS is just constantly burning my brains because I need to concentrate too much. LS is 10,000 times more interesting as a character than Sagan is. The most interesting characters are the most discrete ones, not the attention-seekers. At least for everybody who have had a good upbringing...

(Probably I shouldn't have posted this. Long hesitated but well I couldn't help)

Sagan does not appear to be an attention-seeker.
He is an entertainer though, that's for sure. He enjoys to entertain people.
He spreads excitement and joy with his performances and riding. That's it, so simple.

 

[RedheadDane]

People lap up these stories because they want to believe Sagan is a great guy, and he's happy to feed it because it keeps people paying attention to him.

Or maybe it's you who want to believe that Sagan is a terrible guy. So what if he's clearly pretty extroverted and likes attention? The way I see it, him getting attention simply helps to keep the attention away from the introverted people who might prefer being left alone; no problem with that.
And - honestly - your stubborn refusal to believe that Sagan could possibly have matured over the last few years rather than simply being better as PR is getting pretty old. Of course Sagan has matured! He's 26, rather than the 19-year-old kid he was when he burst onto the scene.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

And you should stay in the future too. The guy is hell of a rider (but you didn't argue he's not), and a really interesting character, but I guess you can't see that for some reasons. So maybe the best thing is to avoid threads about him. Maybe time will change your opinion...

See, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Of course I didn't argue he's not a hell of a rider, that would be really foolish. Judging his behaviour or his character is a lot more subjective than judging his riding skills, which are objectively among the greatest of his generation.

But what you're basically saying is, "I don't like your opinion, you shouldn't voice it because you're wrong, and if you're lucky you'll get fixed in the future." Whereas everybody queuing up to verbally fellate Sagan, that's fine, never gets boring.

Most of the people who don't like Sagan and have taken less flak about it than me have already ceased commenting on anything regarding him because it's just not worth being swamped by his fans' incredulity. I keep being asked (sometimes pretty aggressively) to justify myself, and each time I do, I'm either told I'm wrong and should shut up, or further explanation of the justification is demanded because other posters disagree with it.

Just because somebody is an interesting character doesn't necessarily mean that that character is universally positive. Walter White on Breaking Bad is an interesting character, for example, so is Tony Soprano, so is Patrick Bateman. I don't like Sagan's character, and while RedheadDane points out he has grown up some, from what I've seen I still think he has plenty to do, but also I see less of the new mature Sagan because I try to pay him less attention to avoid these arguments - just like those who have done so more successfully than me as Sagan's fans stage a successful (if inadvertent) quest to silence the criticism.

And really, Michael Albasini may have done a lot to rehab his behaviour after being caught racially abusing Kévin Reza a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean we should just forget about it and pretend it never happened when talking about him in the future (as I've been told to do before), because it should never have happened in the first place. Sagan can't change who he was, but I don't see why it's not allowed to let that play into how we perceive him.

 

[Red Rick]

How about agreeing to disagree. This is getting old

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

So I guess you've never said or done anything that you didn't regret. Seems like maybe you're a little cold hearted. Everyone says and does some pretty stupid things in their life. Even you. There does come a time where letting go is best. Imagine if all your friends held everything thing against you for the rest of your life.

Notwithstanding the double negative that suggests I've regretted literally everything I've said and done, there is a limit.

I can categorically state that I have not called a black man a "lazy n****r" to their face. Michael Albasini has. Yes, I hold that against him. People want to make the "he made mistakes when he was young" argument to excuse Sagan's self-serving "look at me" antics, but you can't make that argument with Albasini, he was 33.

And at the end of the day, RedheadDane asked: "So what if he's clearly pretty extroverted and likes attention?" in respect of Sagan.

Well, so nothing. But I don't like people who are like that, and I find him a very extreme example of it. If he emerged on the scene now I still wouldn't like him, because of that. I may not hate him as much as I do, because the clamour for attention is a) less desperate, because he's now managed to get the big wins that justify the hype, so people pay attention to him regardless and he doesn't have to do such stupid things like the green dye on the podium and the taking focus away from race winners and onto himself now that he IS the race winner, and b) manifesting itself in less disagreeable ways, but I still wouldn't like him.

And being repeatedly told to justify my stance on him in passive-aggressive manners and challenged on every assertion with an attitude that questions the sheer gall, the temerity, the outright cheek that I show in not loving Sagan doesn't make him more agreeable to me, just as what you see as my stubborn refusal to forgive and forget doesn't make him less agreeable to his fans. It just makes his fans look worse in my eyes, because while many just accept and move on (as I've tried to do a couple of times), these threads always get repetitive because there's always some that either take delight in gloating and needling me until I react, or feel the need to interrogate me on my reasons, but won't accept any reason I give. Just as I'm sure repeating the same points and not letting go doesn't make me look any better in yours.

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

And you should stay in the future too. The guy is hell of a rider (but you didn't argue he's not), and a really interesting character, but I guess you can't see that for some reasons. So maybe the best thing is to avoid threads about him. Maybe time will change your opinion...

See, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Of course I didn't argue he's not a hell of a rider, that would be really foolish. Judging his behaviour or his character is a lot more subjective than judging his riding skills, which are objectively among the greatest of his generation.

But what you're basically saying is, "I don't like your opinion, you shouldn't voice it because you're wrong, and if you're lucky you'll get fixed in the future." Whereas everybody queuing up to verbally fellate Sagan, that's fine, never gets boring.

Most of the people who don't like Sagan and have taken less flak about it than me have already ceased commenting on anything regarding him because it's just not worth being swamped by his fans' incredulity. I keep being asked (sometimes pretty aggressively) to justify myself, and each time I do, I'm either told I'm wrong and should shut up, or further explanation of the justification is demanded because other posters disagree with it.

Just because somebody is an interesting character doesn't necessarily mean that that character is universally positive. Walter White on Breaking Bad is an interesting character, for example, so is Tony Soprano, so is Patrick Bateman. I don't like Sagan's character, and while RedheadDane points out he has grown up some, from what I've seen I still think he has plenty to do, but also I see less of the new mature Sagan because I try to pay him less attention to avoid these arguments - just like those who have done so more successfully than me as Sagan's fans stage a successful (if inadvertent) quest to silence the criticism.

And really, Michael Albasini may have done a lot to rehab his behaviour after being caught racially abusing Kévin Reza a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean we should just forget about it and pretend it never happened when talking about him in the future (as I've been told to do before), because it should never have happened in the first place. Sagan can't change who he was, but I don't see why it's not allowed to let that play into how we perceive him.

So I guess you've never said or done anything that you didn't regret. Seems like maybe you're a little cold hearted. Everyone says and does some pretty stupid things in their life. Even you. There does come a time where letting go is best. Imagine if all your friends held everything thing against you for the rest of your life.

I know right, you *** one sheep. . . :razz:

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

How about agreeing to disagree. This is getting old

By which I meant that's enough