Michael Barry

[veganrob]

I cant imagine how watering it down would help a cyclist if its being used to help with pain.

In the UK the standard dose is 50mg capsules (yellow and green), 1-2 of those up to 4 times a day. Its stronger than Codeine but slightly different so teh two can be combined. I said in my earlier post that I had to be scraped off the ceiling when I first started taking it. I only hit 8 capsules a day on a few occasions.

To give you an idea how effective at pain relief it is - I suffer from Hip Osteoarthritis and one day it blew up. I literally could not walk from the car to my house (25 feet) without having to lean on my wife and hardly put any weight on that leg - the pain felt like someone was sticking a hot poker in the joint, I was almost in tears it was that bad. 2 capsules and about 1 hour later I was walking around the house as normal but I can't imagine riding a bike like that.

No, you probably would not want to ride a bike in that intoxicated state. lol.You might fall down and ruin the other hip. They give tickets for that now also
But imagine in a race you just need to take the edge off the pain, along with a little boost, You will finish very good.

 

[Justinr]

If the finish bottles do contain caffeine, sodium, glucose and pain killers whats the problem if none of these substances are banned?

Is it any different to a regular guy using one of those caffeine, L-carnitine, tyrosine, gaurana etc loaded pre workout drinks before going to the gym?....or gulping a gel with electrolytes and caffeine in it towards the end of a long ride?

No different at all really. Although it becomes a moral grey area when using prescription drugs for a purpose other than intended in my view.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If you need to do those drugs to survive, maybe you should consider you're not in the right sport? Or need to train harder?

Truckies do something similar, and have been known to crash / fall asleep etc regardless.

It's the whole point of the anti-doping ethos, imo: do what you can, naturally, and leave it at that. Hopefully we won't rehash the, "is eating food unnatural too?" argument, but hey, new posters and all.

 

[Justinr]

If you need to do those drugs to survive, maybe you should consider you're not in the right sport? Or need to train harder?

Truckies do something similar, and have been known to crash / fall asleep etc regardless.

It's the whole point of the anti-doping ethos, imo: do what you can, naturally, and leave it at that. Hopefully we won't rehash the, "is eating food unnatural too?" argument, but hey, new posters and all.

I would agree - that's why I questioned the prescription drugs thing (e.g. Tramadol). High caffeine / high sugar / high electrolyte is all ok in my view since these are regular over the counter things (although the rules do vary across the EU for sure - watch out for PseudoEphidrine in products in France for instance).

Tramadol isn't - and actually I'd question how quickly they'd get in to your system to give you the 'boost' anyway.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But EPO is regular over the counter stuff in some countries too, as are a bunch of other drugs.

There's the letter of the law, then there's the spirit of the law. One of them leads to an escalating arms race, to see who can gain the upper hand; the other says, "Hey, this bread looks nice and fresh, and dang, this water is clean".

 

[Catwhoorg]

No different at all really. Although it becomes a moral grey area when using prescription drugs for a purpose other than intended in my view.

I think thats a decent place to start a "hey this is a bit off" territory.


I have been battling a calcified tendonitis in my shoulder all year (its mostly better now). Literally every time I went out for a run or ride, I'd be popping a couple of ibuprofen to take the edge off the pain.

I don't think that is in any way a grey area. I did a few races like that, though with the pain was obviously far below par.


I was also prescribed a combination paracetamol + opiate (I forget which one). This was for during my PT, and to take the pain of a whole lot of range of motion stretches away. It made me a little high, and affected my co-ordination, my wife was more than a little concerned about my reaction to them.

There is no way that in my personal set of ethics, that I would take one of those and race.

I'm not sure if they would be on the WADA list, but I am sure I would have been able to apply for TUE for the specific purpose had I been an elite athlete, or maybe they would have given me tramadol instead.

So legally I could have, but morally I don't think its right.

 

[martinvickers]

I think thats a decent place to start a "hey this is a bit off" territory.


I have been battling a calcified tendonitis in my shoulder all year (its mostly better now). Literally every time I went out for a run or ride, I'd be popping a couple of ibuprofen to take the edge off the pain.

I don't think that is in any way a grey area. I did a few races like that, though with the pain was obviously far below par.


I was also prescribed a combination paracetamol + opiate (I forget which one). This was for during my PT, and to take the pain of a whole lot of range of motion stretches away. It made me a little high, and affected my co-ordination, my wife was more than a little concerned about my reaction to them.

There is no way that in my personal set of ethics, that I would take one of those and race.

I'm not sure if they would be on the WADA list, but I am sure I would have been able to apply for TUE for the specific purpose had I been an elite athlete, or maybe they would have given me tramadol instead.

So legally I could have, but morally I don't think its right.

Co-codamol? (paracetamol and codeine?). Had that a few times (broken arm, Gum abcess) - As pain treatment, recommend. But don't be operating a chainsaw with it! And I think it's at the 'weak' end of the range...

 

[Justinr]

But EPO is regular over the counter stuff in some countries too, as are a bunch of other drugs.

Indeed - and I knew someone would point that out.

As I said earlier its a bit of a minefield. And the whole spirit v letter thing is essentially what it comes down to - but as we all know from history people's interpretation of 'spirit' is somewhat variable.

 

[Justinr]

Co-codamol? (paracetamol and codeine?). Had that a few times (broken arm, Gum abcess) - As pain treatment, recommend. But don't be operating a chainsaw with it! And I think it's at the 'weak' end of the range...

As far as I am aware the pain relief table goes as follows (UK info):

Cocodamol (or Zapain as it is also called) is at the 'lower' end but is prescription only for > 3mg Codeine content (typically its a 30mg / 500mg mix with Paracetamol).

Tramadol is next up - synthetic Opiate. Stronger than Codeine.

After that I think it goes Oxycodone, Morphine (oral & patches?), Fentanil. Not sure where intravenous Morphine fits in.

After that I think its a hammer on the head...

 

[Justinr]

I think thats a decent place to start a "hey this is a bit off" territory.


I have been battling a calcified tendonitis in my shoulder all year (its mostly better now). Literally every time I went out for a run or ride, I'd be popping a couple of ibuprofen to take the edge off the pain.

I don't think that is in any way a grey area. I did a few races like that, though with the pain was obviously far below par.


I was also prescribed a combination paracetamol + opiate (I forget which one). This was for during my PT, and to take the pain of a whole lot of range of motion stretches away. It made me a little high, and affected my co-ordination, my wife was more than a little concerned about my reaction to them.

There is no way that in my personal set of ethics, that I would take one of those and race.

I'm not sure if they would be on the WADA list, but I am sure I would have been able to apply for TUE for the specific purpose had I been an elite athlete, or maybe they would have given me tramadol instead.

So legally I could have, but morally I don't think its right.

None of the above need a TUE since they are not on the WADA list. Scary eh?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Co-codamol? (paracetamol and codeine?). Had that a few times (broken arm, Gum abcess) - As pain treatment, recommend. But don't be operating a chainsaw with it! And I think it's at the 'weak' end of the range...

Was stronger than co-codamol, but I think the 'next one' up the ladder from that.
<edit>
Oxycodone rings a bell.
======

Had co-codamol when I broke my ribs playing rugby. That was quite loopy as well (especially as a college guy I coupled it with alcohol)

 

[Justinr]

I think thats a decent place to start a "hey this is a bit off" territory.

Another thing I think of is "would I be happy for my son / daughter to be doing that literally just to get to the end of a sports match". That is normally a good moral pointer ...

 

[Justinr]

Had co-codamol when I broke my ribs playing rugby. That was quite loopy as well (especially as a college guy I coupled it with alcohol)

Which is a big no-no FYI. Opiates depress your breathing and so does alcohol, the combination can be lethal. Don't want to scare you but if you do take them again don't booze at the same time.

 

[martinvickers]

As far as I am aware the pain relief table goes as follows (UK info):

Cocodamol (or Zapain as it is also called) is at the 'lower' end but is prescription only for > 3mg Codeine content (typically its a 30mg / 500mg mix with Paracetamol).

Tramadol is next up - synthetic Opiate. Stronger than Codeine.

After that I think it goes Oxycodone, Morphine (oral & patches?), Fentanil. Not sure where intravenous Morphine fits in.

After that I think its a hammer on the head...

Ah, Fentanil!

Oh...hmmmm. There's a memory - my mother was on that I think - (long story short, cancerous lower jaw removed, replaced with her own reshaped rib! Yep, seriously)

Nobody's doing Alpe D'Huez on that! You can barely do Alpe D'Stairs as memory serves - it was a long time ago (she's absolutely fine now, did a fantastic job - in awe of some surgeons).

 

[martinvickers]

Was stronger than co-codamol, but I think the 'next one' up the ladder from that.
<edit>
Oxycodone rings a bell.
======

Had co-codamol when I broke my ribs playing rugby. That was quite loopy as well (especially as a college guy I coupled it with alcohol)

Saly, i'm oddly resistant to drugs of any sort, so I always seem to need next one up - I was bloody mainlining cocodamol by the end, for something ought to have required not much more than 'profen

Was good, though.

 

[Justinr]

Saly, i'm oddly resistant to drugs of any sort, so I always seem to need next one up - I was bloody mainlining cocodamol by the end, for something ought to have required not much more than 'profen

Was good, though.

That can happen - not everyone responds to Codeine / Opiates.

 

[Justinr]

Ah, Fentanil!

Oh...hmmmm. There's a memory - my mother was on that I think - (long story short, cancerous lower jaw removed, replaced with her own reshaped rib! Yep, seriously)

Nobody's doing Alpe D'Huez on that! You can barely do Alpe D'Stairs as memory serves - it was a long time ago (she's absolutely fine now, did a fantastic job - in awe of some surgeons).

That's amazing in terms of surgery. Glad she is all ok. Off topic I know but bloody hell that is human ingenuity at its best.

Alpe D'Stairs - had a few problems with those in the past too.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Which is a big no-no FYI. Opiates depress your breathing and so does alcohol, the combination can be lethal. Don't want to scare you but if you do take them again don't booze at the same time.

There are few things my Father has really yelled at me for (he is a Pharmacist, now retired), that was one of them.

 

[MacRoadie]

Was stronger than co-codamol, but I think the 'next one' up the ladder from that. Oxycodone rings a bell.

Ah, good old "hillbilly heroin"...

 

[bigcog]

Tramadol is fairly weak as far as opiates is concerned:

http://www.pharmer.org/forum/discussion-prescription-and-otc-meds/opioid-comparison

 

[martinvickers]

That's amazing in terms of surgery. Glad she is all ok. Off topic I know but bloody hell that is human ingenuity at its best.

Alpe D'Stairs - had a few problems with those in the past too.

This was Waay back in the early eighties - VERY pioneering stuff at the time. Even Fentanyl wasn't routinely used til the nineties I think, but she was on it, apparently.

 

[bigcog]

Opiate equivalence chart:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equianalgesic

tramadol is considered fairly weak, on a par with codeine.

 

[Hawkwood]

Saly, i'm oddly resistant to drugs of any sort, so I always seem to need next one up - I was bloody mainlining cocodamol by the end, for something ought to have required not much more than 'profen

Was good, though.

Cocodamol? For f**k's sake Martin get yourself a proper doctor and get some proper gear!!

 

[yespatterns]

Tramadol was the only thing i was ever afraid of getting addicted to. It definitely agreed with me (had to take for two seperated-shoulder incidents --- thanks crappy drivers!), and when asked by the doctor if I wanted more, I said no pretty quickly. If someone reponds well to it, i can definitely see it being used, especially if it's not their first time at the rodeo. Just my 0.02.

 

[martinvickers]

Cocodamol? For f**k's sake Martin get yourself a proper doctor and get some proper gear!!

My family have a history of, shall we say, getting rather too fond of things. It seems to have bypassed me entirely - I am oddly resistant, as I said, to chemicals generally (including, bizarrely, general and local anesthetics, to various dentists/surgeons horror - I also remember cursing the uselessness of caffeine during my uni days cramming), but as I've said, I've seen some harder stuff in action with my mother legit, and some aquaintances non-legit - Co-codamol is as far as I'll comfortably go... I do take rather a lot though, and find it, uniquely perhaps, really rather good, hence my recommendation - but of course I'll bend the knee to more knowledgable men!.