- Aug 31, 2012
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Relative to the revenue the sport is generating? That's the relevant comparison. Not that, say, Federer makes more than Team Sky.
- May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:
I agree that most dont get paid enough. Heck some have to pay to ride on smaller teams!
But big earners in sport are in the minority. And it is all relevant to TV revenues.
Cycling is and will remain a minority sport, especially as those in it continue to operate it in the cesspit.
happychappy said:
I agree that most dont get paid enough. Heck some have to pay to ride on smaller teams!
But big earners in sport are in the minority. And it is all relevant to TV revenues.
Cycling is and will remain a minority sport, especially as those in it continue to operate it in the cesspit.
- Aug 18, 2010
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The team budget list posted in the road racing forum provides a rather straightforward explanation. Sky have well over twice the budget of Movistar. And they've spent it on Froome, Froome's key climbing domestiques (who double as their other stage race leaders), Froome's key flat domestiques (who double as their Classics leaders) and a few guys who can challenge those riders for their Tour spots. It's all going on riders who can throttle the Tour and they've mostly spent well when they've picked the riders who can do that.
There's little point in discussing the desirability of salary caps as there's no way to enforce one. They are barely enforceable in sports where all teams are large, stable, institutions and are all based in one country with one legal system. I wish the UCI much luck in trying to stop an oligarch from getting off the books money to a rider based in a tax haven. That could involve an organisation in one country trying to monitor transactions between people based in two other countries for the benefit of a team registered in a fourth.
There's little point in discussing the desirability of salary caps as there's no way to enforce one. They are barely enforceable in sports where all teams are large, stable, institutions and are all based in one country with one legal system. I wish the UCI much luck in trying to stop an oligarch from getting off the books money to a rider based in a tax haven. That could involve an organisation in one country trying to monitor transactions between people based in two other countries for the benefit of a team registered in a fourth.
- Apr 3, 2009
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Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky
I would like someone to prove or at least provide convincing evidence for the assumption that a larger budget explains the performances we're seeing.
The budget argument clearly assumes the riders in question were known to be better climbers before they were brought onto the Sky team, yes? I don't see evidence that this was apparent in the case of the current Sky train. Do you believe they were so obviously strong that you believe it's reasonable that Sky can field 4 or 5 riders who are arguably better than all but about 10 other riders in the peloton? Why?
Pertinent questions (IMO):
• Were the riders Sky is using to drub the peloton doing so before they got to Sky?
• If no, what has caused these riders to become so powerful?
• If these riders were so powerful, why would other teams not been able to recruit them as their team leaders? Isn't a team leader contract for say Cofidis going to be worth more than a domestique contract at Sky?
• Since it's clear that these riders were not in any way obviously so strong, do you believe Sky has some special vision into rider potential that other teams don't have? What evidence is there for this belief if it exists?
I would like someone to prove or at least provide convincing evidence for the assumption that a larger budget explains the performances we're seeing.
The budget argument clearly assumes the riders in question were known to be better climbers before they were brought onto the Sky team, yes? I don't see evidence that this was apparent in the case of the current Sky train. Do you believe they were so obviously strong that you believe it's reasonable that Sky can field 4 or 5 riders who are arguably better than all but about 10 other riders in the peloton? Why?
Pertinent questions (IMO):
• Were the riders Sky is using to drub the peloton doing so before they got to Sky?
• If no, what has caused these riders to become so powerful?
• If these riders were so powerful, why would other teams not been able to recruit them as their team leaders? Isn't a team leader contract for say Cofidis going to be worth more than a domestique contract at Sky?
• Since it's clear that these riders were not in any way obviously so strong, do you believe Sky has some special vision into rider potential that other teams don't have? What evidence is there for this belief if it exists?
- Aug 18, 2010
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Re: More riders complain about wattages set at tempo (by Sky
The first point is that the wealth of a club or team has an enormous impact on its success across all major sports. This is a really blindingly obvious fact and there is absolutely no reason why cycling should be a startling exception.
Secondly, look at who we are talking about here. Landa, Henao, Nieve, Poels. The only one who hadn't shown extremely high level climbing ability prior to joining Sky was Poels, and Poels was a promising if inconsistent climber whose development was disrupted earlier in his twenties by a near career ending crash.
Thirdly, look at what they are actually doing. They aren't riding like GC men. They aren't spending energy protecting their own GC positions. They have been allowed to take it in turns to have a day off on mountain stages. When they hit the front, they are working on the front in the full knowledge that they can burn themselves out without any negative consequences, unlike the riders they are controlling.
Fourthly, having more than three times the budget of Cofidis, themselves a weirdly over financed team, means precisely that they can offer a super climber more money to ride as a domestique than most other team could pay them to be a leader. Particularly if the rider concerned combines being an excellent climber with not having proven himself as a reliable GC leader. If you haven't regularly shown that you can hold it together for three weeks as a GC rider, that makes you riskier for a team looking for a leader than it does for a team who want you to be one of a rotating group of domestiques. This, incidentally, is basically the situation all of the guys working for Froome are in.
There are lots of startling transformations involved in the Sky story. That Landa, Henao, Poels and Nieve working as a team of mountain domestiques can form a grimly effective train is not among them.
red_flanders said:
The first point is that the wealth of a club or team has an enormous impact on its success across all major sports. This is a really blindingly obvious fact and there is absolutely no reason why cycling should be a startling exception.
Secondly, look at who we are talking about here. Landa, Henao, Nieve, Poels. The only one who hadn't shown extremely high level climbing ability prior to joining Sky was Poels, and Poels was a promising if inconsistent climber whose development was disrupted earlier in his twenties by a near career ending crash.
Thirdly, look at what they are actually doing. They aren't riding like GC men. They aren't spending energy protecting their own GC positions. They have been allowed to take it in turns to have a day off on mountain stages. When they hit the front, they are working on the front in the full knowledge that they can burn themselves out without any negative consequences, unlike the riders they are controlling.
Fourthly, having more than three times the budget of Cofidis, themselves a weirdly over financed team, means precisely that they can offer a super climber more money to ride as a domestique than most other team could pay them to be a leader. Particularly if the rider concerned combines being an excellent climber with not having proven himself as a reliable GC leader. If you haven't regularly shown that you can hold it together for three weeks as a GC rider, that makes you riskier for a team looking for a leader than it does for a team who want you to be one of a rotating group of domestiques. This, incidentally, is basically the situation all of the guys working for Froome are in.
There are lots of startling transformations involved in the Sky story. That Landa, Henao, Poels and Nieve working as a team of mountain domestiques can form a grimly effective train is not among them.
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Re: Re:
Yes huge talents. But not as huge as Chris Froome who was virtually anonymous until the 2011 Vuelta. Does not compute.
proffate said:
Yes huge talents. But not as huge as Chris Froome who was virtually anonymous until the 2011 Vuelta. Does not compute.
Re: Re:
apparently, Rolland still training like in 1975 (= no EPO, HGH, testo, roids, bloodbags...)
thehog said:SeriousSam said:
Rolland even with his new JV 21st century-new era training can't hand on to the Sky train... sad days
apparently, Rolland still training like in 1975 (= no EPO, HGH, testo, roids, bloodbags...)
- Jul 27, 2009
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Re: Re:
At least get Rolland to 1983 with some cortisone, amphetamines and smelling salts!
doperhopper said:thehog said:SeriousSam said:
Rolland even with his new JV 21st century-new era training can't hand on to the Sky train... sad days
apparently, Rolland still training like in 1975 (= no EPO, HGH, testo, roids, bloodbags...)
At least get Rolland to 1983 with some cortisone, amphetamines and smelling salts!
The money thing is a red herring. Sky can take seemingly anyone, provided they are British, and turn them into a climber of equal quality to anyone they manage to lure over from other teams. Landa, Henao, Nieve, Poels ...and Thomas? ...and Froome? ...and Wiggins? ...and whoever is next?
Equal quality or better. Not money. A magic button.
Equal quality or better. Not money. A magic button.
- Jun 10, 2010
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Re: Re:
Wiggins at Sky:
Anyway, Lyon is absolutely spot on. Many cynics are also guilty of conflating the two aspects by crying foul every time a proven climber climbs well at Sky, when they should accept that and focus on the real issue.
Wiggins at Garmin:bikenrrd said:
Wiggins at Sky:
Anyway, Lyon is absolutely spot on. Many cynics are also guilty of conflating the two aspects by crying foul every time a proven climber climbs well at Sky, when they should accept that and focus on the real issue.
Re:
What Sky seem to be able to do is to make almost everyone of their riders hit the magic spot at certain days. Of course only the top dog can do it every day - that's why he is the top dog.
Which brings us to another red herring - the watts per kilo debate.
He is when he is, i.e. last year. Not everyone can be turned into a GC contender. Porte is still an also-ran. If Thomas switches teams he too will be an also-ran. There is very little room at the top.kwikki said:
What Sky seem to be able to do is to make almost everyone of their riders hit the magic spot at certain days. Of course only the top dog can do it every day - that's why he is the top dog.
Which brings us to another red herring - the watts per kilo debate.
- Apr 7, 2016
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With the help of British Cycling, Wiggins drops at least 12 kg (ffs!) in weight over the winter of 2008/9, and is suddenly not bad at cycling, even the uphill bits. Meanwhile, Brailsford thinks 'Hmmm, let's have a British pro team', and Sky is announced spring 2009.
These events are in no way coincidental.
bikenrrd said:
With the help of British Cycling, Wiggins drops at least 12 kg (ffs!) in weight over the winter of 2008/9, and is suddenly not bad at cycling, even the uphill bits. Meanwhile, Brailsford thinks 'Hmmm, let's have a British pro team', and Sky is announced spring 2009.
These events are in no way coincidental.
- Apr 3, 2016
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Lyon said:
Yes, that is undeniably true. It's a pretty marked difference between Sky and the others. It's all a bit fragmented this year, though, by the early setbacks of teams who arrived with podium ambitions (tinkoff, BMC etc) leaving only Movistar as the rival team who turned up for a fight and still have a man in the game. This does work to make Sky look stronger....but they are undeniably strong (er)
- May 3, 2010
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This is indeed the problem. Of the ten best climbers five are riding for the same team. Individuals who try to attack end up looking foolish. The helpers of Team Sky are stronger than the leaders of other teams. It has taken all the fun out of watching the Tour.
- May 26, 2009
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Nothing wrong with Sky signing all these guys who could be leaders on other teams. If Piet Van Berg, Alfredo Gonzalez etc are happy to work for someone else rather than going for the win themselves, that's their call. Like all sports it's a short career and you got to make your $$$$$ in a limited window and if a team can pay you top dollar but it means you sacrifice your chance of winning to help someone else try and win, I'm guessing 95% of people take it.
As for riders moaning about the Sky train. You've had several months to prepare stuff to try and derail it. Not like Sky have suddenly created this train tactic in the last 2 weeks.
As for riders moaning about the Sky train. You've had several months to prepare stuff to try and derail it. Not like Sky have suddenly created this train tactic in the last 2 weeks.
- Apr 3, 2016
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Re:
Now that last comment may be true, and I agree, but it isn't something you can justifiably use to criticise team Sky. They are here to win.
I'd love to see much more of a fight, but it's pretty clear that the only excitement this year has come from Sky, and not in the places that we expected it.
The other teams really need to sort themselves out, talk to each other, and co-operate to unseat Sky otherwise it is never going to happen. I don't really feel any affinity to any of the teams but I'd dearly like to see a major upset and a different podium to the last few years. Sky have had their own way for long enough, there have been enough examples of their tactics and enough dissemination of ex-sky riders into others teams for methods to spread. It can't last, although from a financial point of view success breeds success.
Pantani_lives said:
Now that last comment may be true, and I agree, but it isn't something you can justifiably use to criticise team Sky. They are here to win.
I'd love to see much more of a fight, but it's pretty clear that the only excitement this year has come from Sky, and not in the places that we expected it.
The other teams really need to sort themselves out, talk to each other, and co-operate to unseat Sky otherwise it is never going to happen. I don't really feel any affinity to any of the teams but I'd dearly like to see a major upset and a different podium to the last few years. Sky have had their own way for long enough, there have been enough examples of their tactics and enough dissemination of ex-sky riders into others teams for methods to spread. It can't last, although from a financial point of view success breeds success.
- Jul 28, 2009
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Re:
And let's not forget that there is a long history of decent riders turning into super domestiques which turned out to be doping fueled. It's not because others dope that Poels is doping, but thats the shitty thing of being a cyclist: if you work in an environment with a lot of ''criminals'' people will quickly assume you are one as well.
I'm a fan of Poels and from the Netherlands, and i know he's coming back from serious injuries which hurt his result, but i am surprised to see Poels first win a major classic and then control a mountain stage like he did sunday. Both things we have never seen from him before (or even close).Fergoose said:
And let's not forget that there is a long history of decent riders turning into super domestiques which turned out to be doping fueled. It's not because others dope that Poels is doping, but thats the shitty thing of being a cyclist: if you work in an environment with a lot of ''criminals'' people will quickly assume you are one as well.
Rolland has a much much more impressive GT resume compared to Poels. Rolland has finished 8th, 10th, 10th and 11th in the TDF, has won the white jersey, won 2 TDF stages and finished 4th overall in the Vuelta. I have my questions on if this was done on water and bread, but still.
- Nov 7, 2010
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Re:
If Froome and, for example, Porte switched teams; does anyone believe that Froome wouldn't still be comfortably winning this race?
This is true, but, at the risk of repeating myself. Sky's superior team strength is almost irrelevant while Froome is taking minutes out everyone on a TT, dropping most contenders on high mountains and going off the front on flat stages. He hasn't a genuinely bad day (apart from crashes) in the TdF for five years. He could easily win this without the train - in fact, in 2012 he was part of the train doing loads of work himself and was still by far the strongest climber in the race - with no decline in performance.Pantani_lives said:
If Froome and, for example, Porte switched teams; does anyone believe that Froome wouldn't still be comfortably winning this race?
- Jul 25, 2012
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- Jun 13, 2009
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There is a temptation to compare Sky to US Postal. In my view, while the mountain train concept is similar, Sky's execution is far more efficient/brutal/ridiculous than I recall was the case for US Postal. My memory might have faded, but the stage to Courchevel in 2005 sticks in my mind as a fairly typical example of the US Postal system in action (although, I think it was Discovery by then).
As I recall, Armstrong's climbing domestiques were taking pulls of around 1 or 2k, and then blowing up. The last guy, I think it was Popovych, started with around 12k to go, and the group of favourites still had around 15 riders. Popovych started to fade and Armstrong asked him to put in a high intensity burst, which he did for a few hundred metres, and then Armstrong took over with at least 10k still to go.
The US Postal approach certainly stifled attacking riding, but based on my recollection, it seems that Sky have taken it up several notches. I get no joy out of watching it.
I also find it hard to believe that the answer lies simply in Sky having more money to throw around. The idea of scooping up possible team leaders and having them ride as superdoms is not new.
As I recall, Armstrong's climbing domestiques were taking pulls of around 1 or 2k, and then blowing up. The last guy, I think it was Popovych, started with around 12k to go, and the group of favourites still had around 15 riders. Popovych started to fade and Armstrong asked him to put in a high intensity burst, which he did for a few hundred metres, and then Armstrong took over with at least 10k still to go.
The US Postal approach certainly stifled attacking riding, but based on my recollection, it seems that Sky have taken it up several notches. I get no joy out of watching it.
I also find it hard to believe that the answer lies simply in Sky having more money to throw around. The idea of scooping up possible team leaders and having them ride as superdoms is not new.
- Nov 7, 2010
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Re:
Sky just set a relentless rhythm riding to somewhere as near to 6w/kg as they can. Perhaps a bit of a push from Henao just before Froome attacks, but nothing more. If anyone tries to attack, they basically ignore them and know that the attack is unsustainable - they gradually reel the attacker in and spit them out of the back. It's even more dull in that respect than US Postal.
Agreed, there is definitely a different execution. US Postal used to deliberately change up the watts - go over threshold, then under threshold for a time - largely so the likes of Ullrich and Basso couldn't settle into any kind of rhythm, and the doms also chased down any attacks instantly. This burnt their riders more quickly.Marmot said:
Sky just set a relentless rhythm riding to somewhere as near to 6w/kg as they can. Perhaps a bit of a push from Henao just before Froome attacks, but nothing more. If anyone tries to attack, they basically ignore them and know that the attack is unsustainable - they gradually reel the attacker in and spit them out of the back. It's even more dull in that respect than US Postal.
Re: Re:
Giro 2014. Poels pulled Uran and Quintana up the Monte Zoncolan. Dropping Aru and Rolland, among others.
In that GC Poels finished 21st. 55 minutes back of Quintana. On stage 16 Poels lost 44 minutes in a frigid cold. It was the stage to Val Martello over the Gavia and the Stelvio in extreme conditions. By his own admission he was completely shot down by the conditions. Had he finished that stage with the main GC guys he'd have finished well inside the top 10 of the final GC of that Giro. And that includes spending energy as a dom for Uran he wouldn't have as GC rider.
In 2011, pre crash, as a 23 year old he finished 2nd on top of the Anglirou, 4th on Lagos De Somiedo. Both times ahead of Froome, Wiggins and Mollema. 2nd in Jaén. In between of Purito and Moreno. He finished 17th. If he hadn't lost time in non- mountain stages (he lost time letting go of the peloton in sprint stages...) early on he'd have finished top 10 in the GC.
He's only 28 and lost nearly 2 years of his career after a horror crash. Since his crash he hasn't started a GT as true teamleader with top 10 ambitions. In '14 he was n Uran dom and in '15/'16 a Froome dom. So how was he supposed to rack up top 10 GC finishes? This is his 2nd year at Sky. He's fulfilling the potential he showed easily as much as he's profiting from being at Sky. Whatever may go on there.
Poels might not be TdF GC team leader material, but the notion that he's a 3rd class climber who is all of a sudden riding with the best 10 guys on a mountain stage in a GC is complete and utter nonsense...
And when talking about Rolland, I'd argue that Poels has shown more as a GC type climber then Rolland has ever done. Rolland was never able to climb with the top guys. He got those GC positions by going stage hunting and getting free minutes in week 3 after losing time in week 1 and 2. It gets results, but don't confuse those results with him going mano-y-mano with the best GC riders in the world. Even his 4th in the Giro went like that. He lost time in week one. and got back in the top 10 after gaining a lot of time in a break away the GC favourites didn't bother to chase. To Rolland's credit he did hang on to his spot in week 3.
I'm not saying either is or isn't doped, but when making claims at least know what you're talking about.
Roninho said:
Giro 2014. Poels pulled Uran and Quintana up the Monte Zoncolan. Dropping Aru and Rolland, among others.
In that GC Poels finished 21st. 55 minutes back of Quintana. On stage 16 Poels lost 44 minutes in a frigid cold. It was the stage to Val Martello over the Gavia and the Stelvio in extreme conditions. By his own admission he was completely shot down by the conditions. Had he finished that stage with the main GC guys he'd have finished well inside the top 10 of the final GC of that Giro. And that includes spending energy as a dom for Uran he wouldn't have as GC rider.
In 2011, pre crash, as a 23 year old he finished 2nd on top of the Anglirou, 4th on Lagos De Somiedo. Both times ahead of Froome, Wiggins and Mollema. 2nd in Jaén. In between of Purito and Moreno. He finished 17th. If he hadn't lost time in non- mountain stages (he lost time letting go of the peloton in sprint stages...) early on he'd have finished top 10 in the GC.
He's only 28 and lost nearly 2 years of his career after a horror crash. Since his crash he hasn't started a GT as true teamleader with top 10 ambitions. In '14 he was n Uran dom and in '15/'16 a Froome dom. So how was he supposed to rack up top 10 GC finishes? This is his 2nd year at Sky. He's fulfilling the potential he showed easily as much as he's profiting from being at Sky. Whatever may go on there.
Poels might not be TdF GC team leader material, but the notion that he's a 3rd class climber who is all of a sudden riding with the best 10 guys on a mountain stage in a GC is complete and utter nonsense...
And when talking about Rolland, I'd argue that Poels has shown more as a GC type climber then Rolland has ever done. Rolland was never able to climb with the top guys. He got those GC positions by going stage hunting and getting free minutes in week 3 after losing time in week 1 and 2. It gets results, but don't confuse those results with him going mano-y-mano with the best GC riders in the world. Even his 4th in the Giro went like that. He lost time in week one. and got back in the top 10 after gaining a lot of time in a break away the GC favourites didn't bother to chase. To Rolland's credit he did hang on to his spot in week 3.
I'm not saying either is or isn't doped, but when making claims at least know what you're talking about.
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