Most Farcical Tour Ever?

[sniper]

and his prefessed love for Armstrong was what, a quiet dig a JV?

So while Wiggins is still worshipping Lance, Van Garderen seems more up to date with the latest developments:

[Van Garderen] looking to follow in LeMond's footsteps

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-garderen-i-can-swap-white-for-yellow-in-a-few-years

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

British rowing had an East German coach from the glory days. It wasn't till they opened the files years later they found out that he was very adept at doping teenagers. He coached those two young lads in the video. World junior champions they were. I remember them also.

The Searle brothers were coached by their school coach, Steve Gunn, up to the Barcelona OGs.

 

[Shakes]

At least I was very bored this tour.

Regarding Wiggins:
He has been cycling for years. Winning for years (on the track). While that can be used as an argument it is natural progression it can also be used to indicate doping. Since it seems rather naive track riders don't dope. In every sport, both endurance and sprint there have been numerous examples of champions doping.

Track cycling - being an olympic sport - has not been immune. As such it is not a stretch to suspect doping from then already.

Furthermore, doping != EPO (or similar). Sportsmen (and woman) can use numerous things we - normal people - will never even consider. I remember in the 90s a rider being interviewed after a hard mountain stage while he was on bed with an infusion of salin. Something disallowed now, nothing one of us would do, not extremely advanced but extremely beneficial. There is no test for this and I expect, at the very least, similar things to be used.

 

[Warhawk]

So while Wiggins is still worshipping Lance, Van Garderen seems more up to date with the latest developments:

I'm a big fan of Tejay, but I think the LeMond and Hampsten comparisons - including the one he made himself, talking about how great it was to be mentioned with those guys - is purely a function of the specific position he's in, winning the white jersey, rather than being any kind of doping-related statement. Armstrong never wore white. So, it's only natural to say he's trying to follow in the footsteps of LeMond - whatever you think of Armstrong, Lance never walked this path.

 

[PedalPusher]

At least I was very bored this tour.

Regarding Wiggins:
He has been cycling for years. Winning for years (on the track). While that can be used as an argument it is natural progression it can also be used to indicate doping. Since it seems rather naive track riders don't dope. In every sport, both endurance and sprint there have been numerous examples of champions doping.

Track cycling - being an olympic sport - has not been immune. As such it is not a stretch to suspect doping from then already.

Furthermore, doping != EPO (or similar). Sportsmen (and woman) can use numerous things we - normal people - will never even consider. I remember in the 90s a rider being interviewed after a hard mountain stage while he was on bed with an infusion of salin. Something disallowed now, nothing one of us would do, not extremely advanced but extremely beneficial. There is no test for this and I expect, at the very least, similar things to be used.

Within cycling, track guys have been notorious for doping.

 

[thehog]

Within cycling, track guys have been notorious for doping.

Geez I saw some *** back in the day. I saw guys roll up them knicks and needle straight in thigh. Right before a track meet. I agree they're all insane.

 

[wannab]

Geez I saw some *** back in the day. I saw guys roll up them knicks and needle straight in thigh. Right before a track meet. I agree they're all insane.

Whatever it was, must have given results right away, epo & testo don't work like that.
Could be some diabetici tho

 

[BroDeal]

Within cycling, track guys have been notorious for doping.

That is what I don't get. There is this notion that track cycling is somehow cleaner than road cycling and since Wigans came from the track, he must have started road cycling clean. No one makes the argument that track and field is clean. In fact it is one of the dirtiest sports there is. Why would track cycling be any different? It looks like the perfect type of cycling for doping: Infrequent competition plus lots of steroids for anaerobic efforts and blood vector doping for end of longer events. Weight gain, whether from muscle mass or water retention, is not a problem.

 

[180mmCrank]

Geez I saw some *** back in the day. I saw guys roll up them knicks and needle straight in thigh. Right before a track meet. I agree they're all insane.

Well that's it then - eye witness testimony - they are all dopers!

 

[thehog]

Whatever it was, must have given results right away, epo & testo don't work like that.
Could be some diabetici tho

We're talking juniors very early 90s here. In saying that I saw some stuff at state and national facilities. Never EPO. We were'nt being tested in those days.

I wont name names but 3 guys I rode with once they hit seniors and were tested got busted.

We were all from the Charlie Walsh school. He was a swim coach too!

 

[thehog]

Well that's it then - eye witness testimony - they are all dopers!

You're not being helpful. So it's ok for you to share a personal story but me not?

Rowers sheesh. They took the cake when it came to doping. That's where us cyclists would get our gear from!

 

[180mmCrank]

You're not being helpful. So it's ok for you to share a personal story but me not?

Rowers sheesh. They took the cake when it came to doping. That's where us cyclists would get our gear from!

I am always interested in stories they help bring all of this to life ... to be honest it was a little difficult to tell if you were being serious.

Rowers v Cyclists on doping ... let's do the agree to disagree thing on this one.

 

[thehog]

I am always interested in stories they help bring all of this to life ... to be honest it was a little difficult to tell if you were being serious.

Rowers v Cyclists on doping ... let's do the agree to disagree thing on this one.

Back in the era you speak of yes. It was rampant. Most of it very unsophisctaed. I roomed with rowers and stayed in the same training facilities.

Of course not everyone did drugs or I didn't know if they were did but trackies were well known for the dark arts.

The East German thing didn't help but if you were white and in track & field it didn't matter how much gear you took you still wouldn't win.

With rowing and cycling you could.

 

[ianfra]

Fantastic to have a great and clean winner by a guy who is essentially a club cyclist in the traditional english manner. No amount of words by people who claim to have seen peeps using needles (ha!) etc can change anything. Sky has done a great job and those of you here who want to wallow in misery - that's up to you. But can I suggest something? Why don't you go out and train and see if you can emulate Sky's dope free success. You may not have the skills or the talent but you never know! Well done Wiggo. A club rider like me (only you are quicker!)

 

[180mmCrank]

Back in the era you speak of yes. It was rampant. Most of it very unsophisctaed. I roomed with rowers and stayed in the same training facilities.

Of course not everyone did drugs or I didn't know if they were did but trackies were well known for the dark arts.

The East German thing didn't help but if you were white and in track & field it didn't matter how much gear you took you still wouldn't win.

With rowing and cycling you could.

You don't have to say but when you say you 'roomed with rowers' I am curious what Nationality were the rowers? I know of only one rower that doped in the UK at that time and he only made the U23 team ... there really was no none else doing it in the UK - we wouldn't have known where to start!

Now the cyclists I knew ... there were always rumours back then ... but things cleaned up a lot since then.

But maybe you are not talking about the UK?

T

 

[BroDeal]

Fantastic to have a great and clean winner by a guy who is essentially a club cyclist in the traditional english manner. No amount of words by people who claim to have seen peeps using needles (ha!) etc can change anything. Sky has done a great job and those of you here who want to wallow in misery - that's up to you. But can I suggest something? Why don't you go out and train and see if you can emulate Sky's dope free success. You may not have the skills or the talent but you never know! Well done Wiggo. A club rider like me (only you are quicker!)

Now to make the troll complete you need to again send me a series of PMs outlining your crackpot theories for Sky's magical and giant step up in performance.

 

[180mmCrank]

Now to make the troll complete you need to again send me a series of PMs outlining your crackpot theories for Sky's magical and giant step up in performance.

Be careful what you wish for

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

So, let me get this straight.

Wiggins has always been a clean racer, and, in order to highlight his pristine approach to cycling, Sky decide to hire...a Belgian dope doctor.

Seriously?

 

[wannab]

So, let me get this straight.

Wiggins has always been a clean racer, and, in order to highlight his pristine approach to cycling, Sky decide to hire...a Belgian dope doctor.

Seriously?

Thought he was dutch but that doesn't matter. Really, beside this fact which I also find unfavorable (the only one so far actually), are there any other suspicious facts so far?

Isn't it also weird, that if Wiggins is and was really dirty there's no dirt on him for the past 14years? This strikes me

 

[BroDeal]

So, let me get this straight.

Wiggins has always been a clean racer, and, in order to highlight his pristine approach to cycling, Sky decide to hire...a Belgian dope doctor.

Seriously?

He was not officially hired as an employee. He is a consultant. It's like this.

Paul Kimmage: Oh, I see. You have eleven doctors and most teams have ten?

Dave Brailsford: Exactly.

Paul Kimmage: Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?

Dave Brailsford: Well, it's one more, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most teams, you know, will be using ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're at your best medical program. Where can you go from there? Where?

Paul Kimmage: I don't know.

Dave Brailsford: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Paul Kimmage: Hire a Dutch dope doctor as a consultant.

Dave Brailsford: Eleven. Exactly. One more.

Paul Kimmage: Why don't you just hire the Dutchman outright and the whole program will be a little better?

Dave Brailsford: [pause] Then we could not say he was just a temporary consultant, now could we?

 

[Oldman]

He was not officially hired as an employee. He is a consultant. It's like this.

Paul Kimmage: Oh, I see. You have eleven doctors and most teams have ten?

Dave Brailsford: Exactly.

Paul Kimmage: Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?

Dave Brailsford: Well, it's one more, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most teams, you know, will be using ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're at your best medical program. Where can you go from there? Where?

Paul Kimmage: I don't know.

Dave Brailsford: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Paul Kimmage: Hire a Dutch dope doctor as a consultant.

Dave Brailsford: Eleven. Exactly. One more.

Paul Kimmage: Why don't you just hire the Dutchman outright and the whole program will be a little better?

Dave Brailsford: [pause] Then we could not say he was just a temporary consultant, now could we?

Very convincing dialogue...if you are looking to paraphrase the best line from Spinal Tap

 

[FrankChickens]

He was not officially hired as an employee. He is a consultant. It's like this.

Paul Kimmage: Oh, I see. You have eleven doctors and most teams have ten?

Dave Brailsford: Exactly.

Paul Kimmage: Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?

Dave Brailsford: Well, it's one more, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most teams, you know, will be using ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're at your best medical program. Where can you go from there? Where?

Paul Kimmage: I don't know.

Dave Brailsford: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Paul Kimmage: Hire a Dutch dope doctor as a consultant.

Dave Brailsford: Eleven. Exactly. One more.

Paul Kimmage: Why don't you just hire the Dutchman outright and the whole program will be a little better?

Dave Brailsford: [pause] Then we could not say he was just a temporary consultant, now could we?

As I understood it from Brailsford's interview, Leinders was deemed a critical hire because he's so experienced with racing-specific issues - saddle sores were mentioned as a case in point.

But how have Sky taken advantage of this bum-mending expertise with him not present at the tour? Or were saddle sores and rider health actually lower on the list of priorities than navigating the potential PR nightmare of having Geert in the same hotel as the team?

 

[Franklin]

You don't have to say but when you say you 'roomed with rowers' I am curious what Nationality were the rowers? I know of only one rower that doped in the UK at that time and he only made the U23 team ... there really was no none else doing it in the UK - we wouldn't have known where to start!

Now the cyclists I knew ... there were always rumours back then ... but things cleaned up a lot since then.

But maybe you are not talking about the UK?

T

I'm terribly sorry, but the notion that rowing in those year was squeaky clean is ridiculous. Heck, even if the kids were cean and cleanly trained by their own coach, others used an east German coach.

The Hog has a good point here that students at the rowing club were far, far ahead with the doping game. And yes, that's anecdotical evidence, which seems to be okay in this particular case.

Very important here is that Rowers (used to be) are much higher educated as it's a university sport, whereas cycling was a working man's sport and relatively uneducated. Your "we wouldn't know where to start" is also ridiculous. Not only did they only have to open a newspaper to see which drugs were used (Johnson, east germany), they certainly were close in proximity to the medical colleges (traditionally strong contenders here in the Netherlands^^).

And finally; yes, I question the notion that clean hardworking britons kept up with hardworking dopes up East germans. There's no evidence about this particular case, but the curve of doping (especially in that wild-west era), the characteristic of the sport (high response) and the strong indication that top-countries as the Ntherlands were using as well makes me incredibly sceptical.

 

[sittingbison]

I posted this on the power meter thread, thought it was also applicable in this one.

... if Rogers did average 440w on longer climbs and if he now weighs 69kg (and not 75), then that is around 6.4 w/kg. We know the weight listed for Wiggins is 69kg and didn't he also make comments about riding climbs at 440w or 460w?

Why does no-one above posts the duration and average W when they randomly state numbers. These mean nothing without.

“We did [the Joux Plane climb] in 34:50, I think, and I averaged 440 Watts. That was one of my highest every power reports....I’ve seen a five to seven per cent increase in my general threshold power.

"This week, we were riding tempo at the front on some of these climbs, at 450 watts, and Michael Rogers is the man with all the numbers, the road captain. Someone would attack and Mick would say 'just leave him, he can't sustain (it), it's not possible to sustain. If we're riding at 450 watts, someone is going to have to sustain 500 watts to stay away on a 20-minute climb, which is only possible if you have another couple of litres of blood."

“Look. It’s the same discussion as always, it’s like watching the Tour when Lance [Armstrong] or [Miguel] Indurain raced. You could try to attack, get ahead, but then what are you going to do? Just to have a laugh? If he [Wiggins] goes as they have been, where Richie Porte is pulling and you are on the wheel pushing 420 watts, then explain to me, where are you going to go?"

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Whats with the blood bag comment from Brad?

 

[BroDeal]

I posted this on the power meter thread, thought it was also applicable in this one.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Whats with the blood bag comment from Brad?

It is interesting that going by estimates, people are claiming that the power outputs are low, showing that the Tour has cleaned up. But going by what the riders have said, they are pushing out some really high Watts.