Motor doping thread

[adamfo]

Re:

Someone please tell me a plausible non-motorized reason why Poels wheel would wobble going up a switchback on Angrilu. Perhaps oil on the road. Didn't see any cyclo cross obstacles, nor was it MOTO.gp.

A LARGE addition of force was applied to the rear wheel while cornering. How large is the question. Perhaps I should head to my local switchbacks and try to do it tomorrow. Except I ran an ultra last week and my legs are fried.

Who is sky's F1 partner and how does the money flow?

Poels cut the corner and rode up the steepest part. Wheels deflect putting that much force through them.

 

[Tienus]

No he didn't. The hub motor shown working was around 4 times larger than a Dura Ace sized hub.
The X-ray was of a rim motor with parts missing and no mention made of the additional seat stay components.

He did. I suggest you look properly at the stade 2 broadcast.

https://youtu.be/jBxfQJOHJxc?t=10m15s
At 10:15 you see the x-ray

The hub motor is small enough for a Dura Ace sized hub as John explained in the post I linked. You can also see how the skewer gets true as some have been wondering in this thread.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

No he didn't. The hub motor shown working was around 4 times larger than a Dura Ace sized hub.
The X-ray was of a rim motor with parts missing and no mention made of the additional seat stay components.

He did. I suggest you look properly at the stade 2 broadcast.

https://youtu.be/jBxfQJOHJxc?t=10m15s
At 10:15 you see the x-ray

The hub motor is small enough for a Dura Ace sized hub as John explained in the post I linked. You can also see how the skewer gets true as some have been wondering in this thread.

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

It is a possibility that the test hub motors aren't QR, which would explain some of the bike changes. If they get a flat they would have no choice but to switch bikes. Even without QR, I think that its would be pretty tough to fit all of the necessary parts into a standard size hub, have it produce the needed watts, and survive even a few uses.

Consumer motors: I frequently see this guy commuting on his townie going 20-25 mph while lightly peddling. I finally had the chance to talk with him. The (very large) rear hub houses the motor, and the (large) battery pack is mounted on a rear rack. The top of the battery has a solar panel to top off the charge when the bike is just sitting, pedaling and coasting also charge the battery, as does the front dyno hub which also runs his bright lights (he can program charging). He can also plug it in to charge it, but says he rarely has to. Very cool setup!

 

[DanielSong39]

Varjas' motors were obsolete 10 years ago. One would think the technology would have improved since then.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Varjas' motors were obsolete 10 years ago. One would think the technology would have improved since then.

Maybe that is why we are hearing from him, he needs to sell off some old product. After his 20/20 story, many more seat tube/BB motors were sold. These 'news' stories may just be infomercials.

 

[Tienus]

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

Its a larger hub but a small motor as you can see in the x-ray. The hub is not disassembled as you can see before the wheel is x-rayed. Its a 9mm skewer wheel.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

Its a larger hub but a small motor as you can see in the x-ray. The hub is not disassembled as you can see before the wheel is x-rayed. Its a 9mm skewer wheel.

Lots of commentary on details with this one. First, there are two hub motors that Varjas talks about. A 40 Watt hub motor good for thirty minutes, and one that is good for several hundred watts for an unlimited time. This is also different from the rim motor that was discussed. So in reality there are three motors to think about.

In the video, there was a motor demonstrated and it was referred to as the higher power one. This had a hub with a fairly large diameter.

There was also an x-ray of the lower powered hub motor. This was quite compact. There are some things to note. First, the wheel was suggested to be part of a branded wheel with logos that is in use as standard equipment. As such it was wrapped in bubble-wrap. Second, if this was indeed the x-rayed wheel, it highly suggests that not only the freehub, but the cassette was modified to hold the motor. I've avoided adding this to the discussion, but I've hinted at it greatly. There's a big volume in the freehub. But if you modify the cassette too? You have an enormous volume for a hub motor.

Now ignore the high power and rim motors.

We saw first hand an x-ray of a realistic hub motor. One that the Fraunhofer Institute leant their name to. That actually means something. Looking at the details of the x-ray it makes total sense. Remember that I said a stepper motor would be the way to go? A stepper provides the best torque and power at bicycle wheel speeds. Well, guess what. That x-ray looks exactly like a multi-pole stepper motor.

John Swanson

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

Someone please tell me a plausible non-motorized reason why Poels wheel would wobble going up a switchback on Angrilu. Perhaps oil on the road. Didn't see any cyclo cross obstacles, nor was it MOTO.gp.

A LARGE addition of force was applied to the rear wheel while cornering. How large is the question. Perhaps I should head to my local switchbacks and try to do it tomorrow. Except I ran an ultra last week and my legs are fried.

Who is sky's F1 partner and how does the money flow?

Poels cut the corner and rode up the steepest part. Wheels deflect putting that much force through them.

And the road was wet.
It's not like the guy had to correct a catastrophic shimmy. The rear wheel barely moved.
Super strong ( most likely doped) rider waits for team leader to pass. He's all like, "Hey, Vroomey! Remember me? I just wanted to hang around to say congrats on your impending win. Why are you riding away from me? Vroome...? My motor isn't working."

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

Its a larger hub but a small motor as you can see in the x-ray. The hub is not disassembled as you can see before the wheel is x-rayed. Its a 9mm skewer wheel.

You can see the hub when its laying on the table, but you can not see the hub before they hold it up to the xray. It is missing parts in the xray so how does it work without those?

I get it, some people have already decided that the hub motor is racable, and anything they see is proof. I'm working the other way, I want to see proof first, which I have not. That doesn't mean that there aren't protos and test mules out there though, and maybe that's what we see in the video.

EDIT: The other thing to keep in mind: the motor not only has to provide power in a tiny space, but it also needs to be able to freewheel (so that the rider doesn't get chucked over the bars) and engage/disengage all in that same small space. I did see a strange incident in the la Vuelta where a rider's front wheel tucked into a corner causing him to fall. That could just be too much front brake, or maybe a motor that doesn't/didn't freewheel.

Maybe this brushless motor has some application: https://onewheel.com/products/onewheel-plus

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

Its a larger hub but a small motor as you can see in the x-ray. The hub is not disassembled as you can see before the wheel is x-rayed. Its a 9mm skewer wheel.

You can see the hub when its laying on the table, but you can not see the hub before they hold it up to the xray. It is missing parts in the xray so how does it work without those?

I get it, some people have already decided that the hub motor is racable, and anything they see is proof. I'm working the other way, I want to see proof first, which I have not. That doesn't mean that there aren't protos and test mules out there though, and maybe that's what we see in the video.

EDIT: The other thing to keep in mind: the motor not only has to provide power in a tiny space, but it also needs to be able to freewheel (so that the rider doesn't get chucked over the bars) and engage/disengage all in that same small space. I did see a strange incident in the la Vuelta where a rider's front wheel tucked into a corner causing him to fall. That could just be too much front brake, or maybe a motor that doesn't/didn't freewheel.

Maybe this brushless motor has some application: https://onewheel.com/products/onewheel-plus

You would never use a DC brushless unless you wanted 10+ thousand rpm. Again, it's stepper all the way. And if the motor is part of the freewheel body? I guess that means it will freewheel...

John Swanson

 

[Benotti69]

Riders in the UK are using motors in TTs.

https://twitter.com/Aero_Cell

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

Its a larger hub but a small motor as you can see in the x-ray. The hub is not disassembled as you can see before the wheel is x-rayed. Its a 9mm skewer wheel.

You can see the hub when its laying on the table, but you can not see the hub before they hold it up to the xray. It is missing parts in the xray so how does it work without those?

I get it, some people have already decided that the hub motor is racable, and anything they see is proof. I'm working the other way, I want to see proof first, which I have not. That doesn't mean that there aren't protos and test mules out there though, and maybe that's what we see in the video.

EDIT: The other thing to keep in mind: the motor not only has to provide power in a tiny space, but it also needs to be able to freewheel (so that the rider doesn't get chucked over the bars) and engage/disengage all in that same small space. I did see a strange incident in the la Vuelta where a rider's front wheel tucked into a corner causing him to fall. That could just be too much front brake, or maybe a motor that doesn't/didn't freewheel.

Maybe this brushless motor has some application: https://onewheel.com/products/onewheel-plus

You would never use a DC brushless unless you wanted 10+ thousand rpm. Again, it's stepper all the way. And if the motor is part of the freewheel body? I guess that means it will freewheel...

John Swanson

I know, that link is TiC. If you are assuming that its all contained in the freewheel body, then its even less doable. Having the 'drive' unit be in the freewheel maybe, but the entire works...come one, I know you can't be serious?!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

No.
-The xray shows a hub that is disassembled. Show it complete and ready to race.
-The part that shows a typical axle for a QR skewer to go through is the one in bubble wrap. There is a peek through the wrap, and you can see that it is a larger hub. Show a picture/video of a motor that fits in a standard hub.

Its a larger hub but a small motor as you can see in the x-ray. The hub is not disassembled as you can see before the wheel is x-rayed. Its a 9mm skewer wheel.

You can see the hub when its laying on the table, but you can not see the hub before they hold it up to the xray. It is missing parts in the xray so how does it work without those?

I get it, some people have already decided that the hub motor is racable, and anything they see is proof. I'm working the other way, I want to see proof first, which I have not. That doesn't mean that there aren't protos and test mules out there though, and maybe that's what we see in the video.

EDIT: The other thing to keep in mind: the motor not only has to provide power in a tiny space, but it also needs to be able to freewheel (so that the rider doesn't get chucked over the bars) and engage/disengage all in that same small space. I did see a strange incident in the la Vuelta where a rider's front wheel tucked into a corner causing him to fall. That could just be too much front brake, or maybe a motor that doesn't/didn't freewheel.

Maybe this brushless motor has some application: https://onewheel.com/products/onewheel-plus

You would never use a DC brushless unless you wanted 10+ thousand rpm. Again, it's stepper all the way. And if the motor is part of the freewheel body? I guess that means it will freewheel...

John Swanson

I know, that link is TiC. If you are assuming that its all contained in the freewheel body, then its even less doable. Having the 'drive' unit be in the freewheel maybe, but the entire works...come one, I know you can't be serious?!

dirt you are lost in the weeds on this.

Remember and book mark this so when the time comes you can come back and see the flaw and the slaw.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

I know, that link is TiC. If you are assuming that its all contained in the freewheel body, then its even less doable. Having the 'drive' unit be in the freewheel maybe, but the entire works...come one, I know you can't be serious?!

Again, I only hinted at it, albeit strongly but... What kind of motor can you fit in 8 cogs worth of hollowed out cassette and freewheel? Does it look anything like that x-ray? Does it resemble a stepper motor?

I'll just say that I don't have any specific knowledge, but come on! My previous ruminations and estimations are kind of on the money aren't they?

John Swanson

 

[jmdirt]

Semper Quote: "dirt you are lost in the weeds on this.

Remember and book mark this so when the time comes you can come back and see the flaw and the slaw."

Bookmark it for later? I thought that we were talking about now?! Again (x50), I'm not saying that motors aren't being tried/used, I'm saying that the hub motors shown are not functional/raceable as of 9/17/2017. Maybe tomorrow someone will publish proof of a functional hub motor. You want a bookmark to say "I told you so", but you will be talking about a different thing than what we are talking about now.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

I know, that link is TiC. If you are assuming that its all contained in the freewheel body, then its even less doable. Having the 'drive' unit be in the freewheel maybe, but the entire works...come one, I know you can't be serious?!

Again, I only hinted at it, albeit strongly but... What kind of motor can you fit in 8 cogs worth of hollowed out cassette and freewheel? Does it look anything like that x-ray? Does it resemble a stepper motor?

I'll just say that I don't have any specific knowledge, but come on! My previous ruminations and estimations are kind of on the money aren't they?

John Swanson

Designing a gutted cogset could certainly create some space, but then every journo and fan with a cell phone would be posting pictures of the irregular DA cassette.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Riders in the UK are using motors in TTs.

https://twitter.com/Aero_Cell

The person joined twitter three days ago - Hardly a credible voice.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Riders in the UK are using motors in TTs.

https://twitter.com/Aero_Cell

The person joined twitter three days ago - Hardly a credible voice.

As distinct from whom? From British Cycling with their sexism, cheating and bullying? The UCI and their non-working iPads?

 

[deviant]

The heat images of the glowing chainstay are fishy at best, as the car passes the rider the car's wheels are giving off heat (fair enough, the brakes, tyres, hubs etc will be warm) but I would expect to see a major heat source coming from the engine and gear box area of the car too...and yet the clip shows nothing from that area....poor footage and proof of nothing if it's that inconsistent.

Police forces, WADA or governing bodies are going to need to xray bikes for proof because these heat source videos are woefully inadequate if they're not able to pick up the heat from a car's engine and transmission but can supposedly detect a chainstay motor!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Riders in the UK are using motors in TTs.

https://twitter.com/Aero_Cell

The person joined twitter three days ago - Hardly a credible voice.

What kind of logic is that? Jeezuz!!! :lol:

 

[Tienus]

https://youtu.be/BFBV3F1vLYI?t=6m59s
fom 7:00

Stannard with a flat rear tire with a neutral service bike and car right behind him. He must have been feeling strong as he decided not to change and ride the next coble sector with the flat.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

https://youtu.be/BFBV3F1vLYI?t=6m59s
fom 7:00

Stannard with a flat rear tire with a neutral service bike and car right behind him. He must have been feeling strong as he decided not to change and ride the next coble sector with the flat.

Or worried about giving his wheel to nuetrl service and they suss the wheel is not 'normal'!!!

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

Riders in the UK are using motors in TTs.

https://twitter.com/Aero_Cell

And in other news water is wet...

So much more space to fit motors into a typical TT bike and weight is less on an issue.

<edit to add>

oh and testing is basically non-existant.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

https://youtu.be/BFBV3F1vLYI?t=6m59s
fom 7:00

Stannard with a flat rear tire with a neutral service bike and car right behind him. He must have been feeling strong as he decided not to change and ride the next coble sector with the flat.

Or worried about giving his wheel to nuetrl service and they suss the wheel is not 'normal'!!!

Good spot and agree. He's not giving his $20,000 magic wheel to neutral service!

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

Riders in the UK are using motors in TTs.

https://twitter.com/Aero_Cell

The person joined twitter three days ago - Hardly a credible voice.

What kind of logic is that? Jeezuz!!! :lol:

It's a fair point. Someone with an ax to grind for reasons we don't know signed on to Twitter with that handle to post that image.

The larger point is that to link to that tweet and assert that it proves that "TT riders in the UK are using motors" is just being deliberately obtuse. It proves nothing, it's just an image. we don't know the source, the context, or whether it has been verified by anyone.