Motor doping thread

[jyl]

Re: Re:

Cosmo Catalano and Adam Myerson think Wout Van Aert is at it (4th guy, in all white. Video is from Hoogerheide) - https://www.facebook.com/cosmo.catalano/videos/10100653425172516/?fref=nf

Wow, that looks weird. Don't know how to explain the wheel movement.

I downloaded the video and went through it frame-by-frame.
1 - He coasts to the apex of the turn, right where the rear end of his saddle is at the start of the first "a" in the first "kalas" on the banner. Right crank at 6 o'clock, no crank rotation.
2 - He starts to pedal, the right crank rotates to about 7:30 o'clock by the time his saddle is at the start of the second "a" of the first "kalas".
3 - Something goes wrong (some mention of chain jump in Cosmo's post), he stops pedaling and actually backpedals a fraction, the right crank rotates in reverse and gets to almost 6 o'clock by the time his saddle is at the end of the "s" in the first "kalas".
4 - He starts pedaling again, the right crank is at 9 o'clock by the time his saddle gets to the start of the "k" in the second "kalas".
5 - between those two points (saddle at end of "s" and saddle at start of "k"), if you go frame by frame and compare the rotation of the crank and the rotation of the rear rim, you see (a) the rim rotation speeds up right when the crank starts rotating again, and (b) the crank rotation rate and the rim rotation rate speed up together, as he exits the corner.

In other words, it looks okay to me. I think what fools our eyes is the brief interruption where he backpedals for an instant.

I don't know if you are using a Mac or a PC. On a OS X, you can record streaming video from your screen, using Quicktime Player, then use cursor right and left arrows to step through the video frames. Pretty handy. There must be a similar trick for Windows, does anyone know it? I use Windows 10.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

she's a deer in the headlights; she's a U23 women's cyclocross rider.

It does seem that what you are saying is that she deserves a higher level of sympathy not just because she is an under 23 rider but also a female under 23 rider, a veritable innocent and vulnerable Bambi-like figure. Sorry, but this is just special pleading, and in its suggestion that her gender should influence people's attitudes towards her, deeply sexist.

Yes, we can have some sympathy for her, but it is clear that she was complicit in this affair, perhaps even the central driving character, and the more she continues with the lies, the less our sympathy should be.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that by describing her as a "deer in the headlights" I'm somehow absolving her of blame. She's pretty damned obviously not blameless in the situation. At the end of the day, it's still her that rides the illegal bike and it's her name that gets splashed about the press, so there's no way she wasn't in on it. Like hrotha said way back, while she's young enough to be impressionable, she's also old enough to know what she's doing is massively egregious cheating and she's old enough to take responsibility for her actions. And they also called you out for not letting go of the gender issue in it too.

I describe Femke as a "deer in the headlights" in that interview not because she's female, but because how completely unequipped she seemed for dealing with the sudden burst of negative attention. Obviously she will have known that if she got caught, it would be bad, but she may not have fully realised just how big a deal it would be, and also how massive the coverage of the scandal would be compared to the coverage of the races she is in. When I point out she's not equipped for that because she's "an U23 women's CX rider" it's not "because she's female" but because:
a) cyclocross gets much less coverage, at least worldwide, than road cycling
b) U23 racing gets much less coverage than the elite seniors
c) women's cycling gets much less coverage than men's cycling
If a hypothetical Femke on a non-doctored bike had WON that race, she'd get a short piece on Sporza, a bit of a celebration of the Belgian home champions after van Aert's win perhaps, and then she'd go back to where she was. And if that hypothetical Femke had also been doping (regardless of whether the actual one was or wasn't), by the time the results came back, Classics sason would be underway, the 'cross season would be more or less over, it might get a brief flurry of attention then she'd disappear into the night. Being caught with a motor doesn't allow that "out"; the deception is recognized immediately as soon as it's spotted. The humiliation is severe and it is instant, and now her disgrace is being reported all over the world, and not just in the specialist press either. And she then has to justify herself under questioning in a TV interview that's going to be watched by a LOT more people worldwide than the usual Sporza audience, with prospective bans and fines being bandied about that massively exceed anything she could reasonably have hoped to make in her whole career if she'd been able to motor-dope her way to victory in almost every World Cup for a decade. Easy to get overwhelmed.

She's become a pariah overnight, and also because what she's done is SO blatant, SO egregious, and SO antithetical to what the sport is meant to be about, in one fell swoop she goes from being thought of as potentially slightly shady by the comparatively small proportion of the cycling fanbase that follows women's cyclocross to being such a soft target that people are almost lining up to pile on more shame, from the justifiably righteous to the attention-seeking hypocrites of the sport. Even Riccardo Riccò, cycling fans' favourite punching bag, has said his bit to put the boot in on her. Because whatever he did, he can say that he didn't get busted for putting a motor in his bike.

Everything we're seeing is telling us that the van den Driessche family, seemingly in general, is dubious as all hell. We aren't talking a few otherwise totally upstanding people having to cut corners out of desperation to keep their dreams alive. Even the most sympathetic portrayals of Femke must acknowledge that. It's impossible that she didn't know what was going on, and therefore whoever was responsible for the idea or implementation of the ruse is irrelevant (and obviously the excuse has been worked out on the fly, and now they've forced their own hands into sticking to it). Even a constant power, or power-activated motor that didn't require switching on and off would mean that the bike would be much heavier, and almost certainly would have felt and handled significantly differently. And it seems like the UCI's telling us of it being random checking to check out a new bit of gear is a likely fallacy, just as when they told everybody Carlos Barredo had a high suspicion index score because he hadn't been tested enough, then quietly erased his career for biopassport violations. It sounds like enough people were concerned for action to become almost needed.

She joins the ranks of those who had to be removed because they weren't subtle enough. But by being the first one caught for a whole new world of cheating, she also stands alone... for the time being.

 

[Anaconda]

Fits well with my views anyway... google translate of Guimard article:

http://www.cyclismactu.net/news-chr...rd-uci-cancellara-hesjedal-cookson-55782.html

The problem is that everyone knows that mechanical doping exists. But what bothers me most is that we have the same attitude after Festina in 1998 when everyone knew at the time. It was the same for Lance Armstrong again everyone knew. But no, it is preferable to practice the language of wood: "We did not know, we never imagined". It bothers me a lot, because they are people of the middle runners, managers which I will not say the names that. We know for 7 years, since Fabian Cancellara minimum. The waffle is a disservice to cycling. You do not have to be afraid !

Cancellara, Hesjedal, it was so big!

Since that case, I saw the Paris-Roubaix winner Cancellara in 2010, I saw the fall of Ryder Hesjedal with his bike that leaves alone. It was so big that the UCI has not even thought about doing an investigation. When I see the speech of Brian Cookson ... They will put the means 6 years later, they will try to find the financial means! As everyone knew, everyone was talking about. There were records of the CIRC (Independent Commission of Cycling Reform) which is spelled out! In this case it is written black on white that is used. This is serious! That start date of 2015! And then you have to find the financial means what? While it is able to go to the moon in 40 years you are not able to find a system to detect motors in bicycles? They take us for balls.

No investigation has ever been made ​​on what everyone has seen (Cancellara, Hesjedal)! It's fun because the UCI is not aware of anything but when it reappear out records we see everywhere. The system can show you the engine in the wheels and editors are able to explain all this. There are also those who knew, and who now no longer know. It has to stop ! When I lit the fuse last year before the Tour de France we were all suspected of Giro update with what Mario Cipollini said. It had been troubling things. Is there was an investigation? No nothing. Hesjedal? Nothing. While the wheel alone takes the bike!

REPLAY: Ryder Hesjedal was there a motor in his bike?

We returned at the time Festina

Ç always starts at the top, not at the base. For it must find the material. And it is not small equipment! The defense line Femke van den Driessche is the same as those using EPO. It's the same thing, just the words that change: it is not known how it happened there. Because it happened by itself! Must stop, the UCI can not say she did not know. There were letters sent by the French authorities during the Tour de France. Result? No control. We returned to the Festina time.

Yet it is a breeze to fight against that. If Christian Prudhomme wants to save the Tower, so do not tell the media to shut up as he did last year during the Tour de France on Froome, he must put the means for all bikes are sealed and are the same.

If justice does not deal ...

Thousands of motors manufactured. We know, we see the system work. It's been a while it lasts. Last year we had called me a mental defective. My beliefs were true, everyone knew. The little Belgian's not the only one. To stop with the language of wood. If we want to save cycling, you need a course of justice, there she can do something. The feds smother everything. We are afraid of what? Retaliation? Nobody moves and cycling loses all credibility. If justice does not interfere, it will be worse than anything the bike has already suffered.

They are independent bodies of the federations should take care of that. The feds are ostrich. Look at the scandal of FIFA in football, it came from the police. It's every time the police comes out that, independent bodies. The sporting fairness does not value, we must defend it at any price. And last thing: bicycle manufacturers can not not be aware of it ...

 

[Tienus]

The video where the parakeets accidently fly into their pockets
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20160202_02105330

Tomorrow I will post a video where they steel a rhino and an elephant from the zoo.

 

[MarkvW]

I couldn't care less what sanction she gets. I'm waiting to see how leniently Cookson treats her team.

 

[MagniflexOlmo]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Hope this wasn't already posted, but after I saw the crappy drawing from Gazetta I had the idea of searching around for linear motors. Anyhow, this guy (from 2010 already) has a really nice little motor where the "rotor" coils are on the fork and the "stator" is ?some sort of magnets? on the front wheel.
http://www.juicedbikes.com/updates/2010/10/19/diy-linear-motor-wheel-could-become-the-worlds-lightest-e-bi.html
Power approx for 50W for what looks like a fairly rough and ready home made device. Enough to take him down the road and back.There are three videos ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDlcrAKrWQ

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

It's amazing to hear Wiggins and Froome. Sounding so high and mighty.

http://news.yahoo.com/froome-says-had-warned-uci-against-mechanical-doping-105731737--spt.html?nf=1

"It's a concern that I've had, something I've brought up with the UCI independent commission when I sat down with them and said, 'listen, from my point of view there are these rumours, it would be my advice that the UCI implements controls and measure to start checking bikes more regularly'," Froome told reporters on Tuesday.

LOL Who does this guy think he is?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Is that the same commission that David Millar sits on, while actual clean cyclists don't get a look in?

It's good to know Froome was so concerned about U23 women's cyclocross, anyway.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Is that the same commission that David Millar sits on, while actual clean cyclists don't get a look in?

It's good to know Froome was so concerned about U23 women's cyclocross, anyway.

It must be the same commission. Yeah, I am sure, like Armstrong before him, he donated a bunch of money for testing....

Have to keep those women/girls in check!

 

[Knutsen]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

LOL Who does this guy think he is?

Two-time winner of TDF, and one of the worlds best cyclist?

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/177447-first-look-€10000-typhoon-e-assist-packs-250w-hidden-motor

the e-bike manufacturers must be rubbing hands with all this free publicity..if only they could get a celeb rider to endorse....

yeah, bluetooth... hack them to 80kph towards a sharp corner, or 200 rpm up Ventoux (oops, seen that)

 

[ray j willings]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/02/news/cancellara-says-motors-in-bikes-are-an-old-story_394476

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

LOL Who does this guy think he is?

Two-time winner of TDF, and one of the worlds best cyclist?

to quote teh Bike Radar article

"With a simple push of a handlebar-mounted button, the rider can summon up to 200 watts of extra pedaling power, essentially transforming an average cyclist into Chris Froome."

well, something transformed the average chris froome into...eh...chris froome

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

LOL Who does this guy think he is?

Two-time winner of TDF, and one of the worlds best cyclist?

to quote teh Bike Radar article

"With a simple push of a handlebar-mounted button, the rider can summon up to 200 watts of extra pedaling power, essentially transforming an average cyclist into Chris Froome."

well, something transformed the average chris froome into...eh...chris froome

The middling pro that had to hold on to his team car when he was struggling to keep up, that transformed into a world beater going up against proven dopers and sprinting uphill like a cartoon character? Oh yes, that guy. I remember now!

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

are members more interested in knocking froome rather than discussing the subject?

Well, the subject was the latest interview with Froome regarding the subject of mechanical doping.

I'm just not sure that a thread about mechanical doping is the best place to defend Froome's honor, or to cite his on-bike accomplishments (as others were doing).

 

[hfer07]

So let me get this straight:

THE WHOLE PELOTON KNOWS ABOUT THE MECHANICAL DOPING-EVEN TO CLAIM ITS USE GOES BACK YEARS -MAYBE DECADES........AND YET THE UCI HAS NOT TAKEN IT SERIOUSLY, NOR HAS CREATED A TASK FORCE TO DETECT IT..............

got to love the double standard and moral values among the best riders when asked about doping - whether mechanical or chemical : All they know is happening, but yet nobody comes forward.....................

I'm going to say it once- if there is solid proof that a massive use of mechanical doping in the peloton- lets say 60% of all pro riders- I'd be so mad to the point of stop watching Cycling permanently

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/02/news/cancellara-says-motors-in-bikes-are-an-old-story_394476

“If it’s true or not, I have no idea,” he said

Yeah, I wonder if it's true? I wonder if maybe the UCI didn't actually find a motor inside a frame at a World Championship race. Maybe they were unsure about it but decided to release an official statement confirming the discovery just for the fun of it. Or maybe they did it just to incite Luca Guercilena. Or maybe it didn't happen at all. Maybe the UCI just released the official statement confirming the find to give the media something to talk about.

"If it's true or not..."

 

[Metabolol]

UCI has reached the end of it's road a long time ago in regards to doping. Let the police handle the testing and then if a rider is caught charge them with fraud etc. Keep the UCI completely out of that process. A guy like Armstrong should have gotten a 5-10 year prison sentence. Why hasn't France issued an international arrest warrant for him?

Treat the cheaters they way they should be treated - as criminals. You win the Tour de France and get caught for cheating you should be tossed in prison.

The moto doper should have been handcuffed and immediately question by policed and never allowed to cook up a story together with her father.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

So let me get this straight:

THE WHOLE PELOTON KNOWS ABOUT THE MECHANICAL DOPING-EVEN TO CLAIM ITS USE GOES BACK YEARS -MAYBE DECADES........AND YET THE UCI HAS NOT TAKEN IT SERIOUSLY, NOR HAS CREATED A TASK FORCE TO DETECT IT..............

Well, in fairness to the UCI, someone did detect it, no? And they have been x-raying and inspecting bikes at races, no? Does that constitute a "task force"? I don't know. But they do seem to be pursuing the matter. maybe it's all PR on their part, but I don't see how having x-ray machines at major races adds much credibility to the sport.

got to love the double standard and moral values among the best riders when asked about doping - whether mechanical or chemical : All they know is happening, but yet nobody comes forward

That's the kicker, right there. We have seasoned pros now talking openly about this, as if it's such old news that it's beneath them to even discuss it. We have the most gifted cyclist who ever lived telling us that he personally warned the UCI about it, so great were his concerns. But as recently as just a few days ago, anyone mentioning the subject was dismissed as nothing more than a basement-dwelling internet troll. Funny how that works.

I'm going to say it once- if there is solid proof that a massive use of mechanical doping in the peloton- lets say 60% of all pro riders- I'd be so mad to the point of stop watching Cycling permanently

60%?!?! That's mighty generous.

What if it turns out to be only 1%, and they've stood atop the podium?

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Re:

actually it was the transformation + holding on to cars. no other top pro would do that would they.

Yup. And they'd be rightfully thrown out of the race for it.

 

[jyl]

Re:

So let me get this straight:

THE WHOLE PELOTON KNOWS ABOUT THE MECHANICAL DOPING-EVEN TO CLAIM ITS USE GOES BACK YEARS -MAYBE DECADES........AND YET THE UCI HAS NOT TAKEN IT SERIOUSLY, NOR HAS CREATED A TASK FORCE TO DETECT IT..............

got to love the double standard and moral values among the best riders when asked about doping - whether mechanical or chemical : All they know is happening, but yet nobody comes forward.....................

I'm going to say it once- if there is solid proof that a massive use of mechanical doping in the peloton- lets say 60% of all pro riders- I'd be so mad to the point of stop watching Cycling permanently

I think motors are currently being used, but to only a small extent, in top level racing. Because the UCI has been seizing and checking bikes in WT races for about a year now, and has not found a motor. If motors were in 60% of bikes, they'd have been found before now.

My guess is that at present, riders with motor doped bikes are using them carefully, when the potential reward is large and the chances of being caught are low. Before last weekend, the chances of being caught in CX or women's road were low since UCI wasn't checking those. I'd guess the chances of being caught in non-WT men's road might still be low. Race situations where you can change to a clean bike mid-race. Or when you need to perform big but are not planning to finish anywhere near the podium (super domestique).

The obvious counter argument is that the UCI's bike checks could all be a sham, they are finding motors but not reporting them, or maybe the bikes go into those tents and don't get checked at all, the commissaires and team mechanics just drink coffee for an hour and pretend they were removing seatposts. But in that case, why would the UCI even bother with the sham?. There was no big clamour for motor doping checks (this and similar forums don't count), and the UCI got mostly ridicule when it started the checks.

Of course, motor use might have been more brazen in previous years, when there was no checking program at all.

 

[Tienus]

@ Metabol
That would be inconveniant for the riders as all bikes would be taken for inspection. Also the truck would be searched for special tools, spare parts and chargers. It would all be a worthless effort as Femke or any other pro cyclist would come up with a plausible explenation.

 

[Metabolol]

I hope that arrogant *** Cancellara gets busted.

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

So let me get this straight:

THE WHOLE PELOTON KNOWS ABOUT THE MECHANICAL DOPING-EVEN TO CLAIM ITS USE GOES BACK YEARS -MAYBE DECADES........AND YET THE UCI HAS NOT TAKEN IT SERIOUSLY, NOR HAS CREATED A TASK FORCE TO DETECT IT..............

got to love the double standard and moral values among the best riders when asked about doping - whether mechanical or chemical : All they know is happening, but yet nobody comes forward.....................

I'm going to say it once- if there is solid proof that a massive use of mechanical doping in the peloton- lets say 60% of all pro riders- I'd be so mad to the point of stop watching Cycling permanently

I think motors are currently being used, but to only a small extent, in top level racing. Because the UCI has been seizing and checking bikes in WT races for about a year now, and has not found a motor. If motors were in 60% of bikes, they'd have been found before now.

My guess is that at present, riders with motor doped bikes are using them carefully, when the potential reward is large and the chances of being caught are low. Before last weekend, the chances of being caught in CX or women's road were low since UCI wasn't checking those. I'd guess the chances of being caught in non-WT men's road might still be low. Race situations where you can change to a clean bike mid-race. Or when you need to perform big but are not planning to finish anywhere near the podium (super domestique).

The obvious counter argument is that the UCI's bike checks could all be a sham, they are finding motors but not reporting them, or maybe the bikes go into those tents and don't get checked at all, the commissaires and team mechanics just drink coffee for an hour and pretend they were removing seatposts. But in that case, why would the UCI even bother with the sham?. There was no big clamour for motor doping checks (this and similar forums don't count), and the UCI got mostly ridicule when it started the checks.

Of course, motor use might have been more brazen in previous years, when there was no checking program at all.

I'm sure the UCI warns riders and teams when they are testing bikes. Even tough the UCI pretends to be searching they do not want to find anything.

Why did they only confiscate one out of three bikes from Femke?

 

[Metabolol]

Re:

@ Metabol
That would be inconveniant for the riders as all bikes would be taken for inspection. Also the truck would be searched for special tools, spare parts and chargers. It would all be a worthless effort as Femke or any other pro cyclist would come up with a plausible explenation.

All those issues can be solved with a well thought out testing system (in regards to moto doping). Pharmacological doping is more complicated.