Motor doping thread

[CTQ]

if Team Sky is a protected team , why they didn't use the famous wheel at the World Champ? 9 th at 1 min 42 sec behind BMC in 2015

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

...
This may sound stupid but my first introduction to a bicycle with a small motor and battery was in Japan. Maybe around 2005. My mother in-law had one. And she gave me the key to the lock so I go make a trip to the grocery store. Showed me the two gear levels and operation buttons and I took off. I told my ex wife when I got back to the house.....I should take one of these to the TDF fan areas on a mountain and ride next to the pro's. That motor was larger and had more battery capacity than the one we have seen for a pro set up. But it was extremely easy to take off on hills and a bit dangerous.

Good anecdote.
Did she try to climb the Muur with it?

It would have been quite the story! It had a basket on the front and back. She could have loaded it up with grocery's and bread. Then headed up the mountain. In fact anyone with a set of balls should do something like that at this years tour! Get a bafang motor 1000 watt kit and trick out a hybrid. Put saddle / commuter bags on it. The bafang is very obviously a motor but that is the point. Just sit at the mid of a queen stage and bang! See how far you get before the police knock you off of it. The TV entertainment alone would be awesome.

 

[Tom the Engine]

Re:

For what it's worth, a major kudos to Greg here.
It may or may not be about Lance for him, but to be honest I couldnt care less.
He has put himself in the cross fire here, when really he didn't need to.
He must be absolutely convinced and gutted by it. Hi involvement is very important, first because he's close to the peloton, second because his reputation is as impeccable as it gets and so it's not as easy to discredit him.

That's as nonsensical as it gets.
- It does matter whether it's mainly about a personal feud or not. Motivations and possible conflicts of interests matter.
- Conviction alone is nothing admirable (without presenting good arguments for it). Strong conviction without reason is dangerous in general.
- Relying on impeccable reputation is bollocks as is argument by authority to not get discredited.
- Closeness to the peloton requires to present stronger evidence than an outsider. Otherwise it's worthless.

I really wish that this will turn out well for Greg someday and he's proven right because I respect him a lot. But in this CBS documentary he looked awful. I felt bad for him.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

if Team Sky is a protected team , why they didn't use the famous wheel at the World Champ? 9 th at 1 min 42 sec behind BMC in 2015

At this point I believe they are all protected.

Unless you are small time and easy to toss aside.

See the poor girl with the family that can't thieve a parakeet.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

For what it's worth, a major kudos to Greg here.
It may or may not be about Lance for him, but to be honest I couldnt care less.
He has put himself in the cross fire here, when really he didn't need to.
He must be absolutely convinced and gutted by it. Hi involvement is very important, first because he's close to the peloton, second because his reputation is as impeccable as it gets and so it's not as easy to discredit him.

That's as nonsensical as it gets.
- It does matter whether it's mainly about a personal feud or not. Motivations and possible conflicts of interests matter.
- Conviction alone is nothing admirable (without presenting good arguments for it). Strong conviction without reason is dangerous in general.
- Relying on impeccable reputation is bollocks as is argument by authority to not get discredited.
- Closeness to the peloton requires to present stronger evidence than an outsider. Otherwise it's worthless.

I really wish that this will turn out well for Greg someday and he's proven right because I respect him a lot. But in this CBS documentary he looked awful. I felt bad for him.

Yeah it all depends on who is in the cross-hairs does it not?

I do like the use of bollocks adds some flair.

 

[Tom the Engine]

Re: Re:

Yeah it all depends on who is in the cross-hairs does it not?

Not for me. I'm not a fan and I'm as bloodthirsty as anyone here to get proof for the cheats. But stupid arguments remain stupid even when I agree with its intentions.

I do like the use of bollocks adds some flair.

So I listed 4 points that you could have addressed and disagreed with. But instead you chose to discredit me by suggesting closeness to Sky because of the use of a British English word? Good job.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.

We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?

Yes, i'm talking about the rims in terms of using this in the mountains or road stages. The hub obviously would only work if built into a disc wheel at the scale shown in the blurry video to hide it behind the disc of the wheel itself.

Also, Unless i'm mistaken on what the electromagnetic wheel is and how it works, it's simply a brushless motor. i.e. an inside out traditional motor where you put the permanent magnets on the rotor (inside rim) and you move the electromagnets to the stator (inside frame).

Well firstly Varjas says that it is all in the wheel rim, nothing in the frame. I'll let you look at brushless motors and decide if building one into a frame/wheel with, at most, 4 small magnets in the stays would work.

 

[zlev11]

Re:

^ So I guess Nibali on Hautacam can't have been moto-doping?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eofJgcSH_24

1:55 onwards

i've always been suspicious of Nibali in that Tour. he did some weird hand movements and had a strange cadence at the end of the MTF's in that race. i'm a fan of the guy, though, so i hope i'm wrong.

 

[Tom the Engine]

Re: Re:

It would be shocking to think that only Varjas is building motors and that he is at the forefront of wheel engineering... The technology is not complicated, there is nothing that requires a lab for R&D. All you would need is a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and somebody willing to travel to China for prototyping. I'm convinced a small team with a modest budget could have a well and truly hidden hub motor with less than two years' effort.

John Swanson

No doubt about this.
But a lot of things could be possible in principle. To simply dismiss a potential technology just because there's no known mass-production or no known working prototype or even no published research on it is very naive. With a bit of skill, commitment and budget a lot is possible.
And when it comes to motors in bikes I guess we all agree: The technology is there, period. It's only a question of how, who and when.

And until now we only know about Varjas who claims that his inventions are used at the TdF. So he and his systems (and other known systems) is all we can talk about. To discuss any other very hypothetical involved party that we don't know anything about wouldn't lead anywhere, would it?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Someone is keeping the Producers from saying or publishing everything. Maybe a updated story is coming.

I think Varjas has a plan, it cannot just end this way.
and there is a French investigation going on.
it's not finished with the CBS tv show at all.

I belive you are correct.

Note that when the reporter was indicating that he had listened in on a conversation between Dr. F and Stefano that they only showed a still shot of them in the car together. Reasons we all can guess.

Also note that the French Police are involved with the location of the drop site for the cycles left off at a storage site.

I don't think for a moment this is the end. It is just the tip of the iceberg.

And after the comments with respect to 1998 I'm going to say it is hard not to question anything from then forward. Just hard. Unless this Stefano is a pathological liar. Then there are some unanswered questions out there for more than one cyclist.

Yes, Beaulieu-Sur-Mer wasn't it?

The funny thing is if you look up Varjas' patents you'll find them registered to Typhoon Bikes Limited. They have a webpage. I decided to have a look at their dealer locations:

http://www.typhoonbicycles.com/dealers/

That address in France sure seems familiar... Just a coincidence of course...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Yeah it all depends on who is in the cross-hairs does it not?

Not for me. I'm not a fan and I'm as bloodthirsty as anyone here to get proof for the cheats. But stupid arguments remain stupid even when I agree with its intentions.

I do like the use of bollocks adds some flair.

So I listed 4 points that you could have addressed and disagreed with. But instead you chose to discredit me by suggesting closeness to Sky because of the use of a British English word? Good job.

I'm not trying to discredit you or your comments. I truly like the use of the word bollocks. Serious.

Sometimes people wear their feelings to much. My apologies if you took it as an insult.

Your post did come off as if you discredit the entire notion. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Someone is keeping the Producers from saying or publishing everything. Maybe a updated story is coming.

I think Varjas has a plan, it cannot just end this way.
and there is a French investigation going on.
it's not finished with the CBS tv show at all.

I belive you are correct.

Note that when the reporter was indicating that he had listened in on a conversation between Dr. F and Stefano that they only showed a still shot of them in the car together. Reasons we all can guess.

Also note that the French Police are involved with the location of the drop site for the cycles left off at a storage site.

I don't think for a moment this is the end. It is just the tip of the iceberg.

And after the comments with respect to 1998 I'm going to say it is hard not to question anything from then forward. Just hard. Unless this Stefano is a pathological liar. Then there are some unanswered questions out there for more than one cyclist.

Yes, Beaulieu-Sur-Mer wasn't it?

The funny thing is if you look up Varjas' patents you'll find them registered to Typhoon Bikes Limited. They have a webpage. I decided to have a look at their dealer locations:

http://www.typhoonbicycles.com/dealers/

That address in France sure seems familiar... Just a coincidence of course...

Seems it would be more of an issue than just a storage site. now that you pointed it out ....makes it more interesting for me.

 

[zlev11]

anyway, i thought their attempt to tie it to Lance was weak. all they did was have Varjas install a motor in a 1998 Trek. it proved nothing except that his invention actually works remarkably well. i think looking into Lance is a false lead, what about the British track cycling program? didn't they start having big time success around the late '90's as well?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Someone is keeping the Producers from saying or publishing everything. Maybe a updated story is coming.

I think Varjas has a plan, it cannot just end this way.
and there is a French investigation going on.
it's not finished with the CBS tv show at all.

I belive you are correct.

Note that when the reporter was indicating that he had listened in on a conversation between Dr. F and Stefano that they only showed a still shot of them in the car together. Reasons we all can guess.

Also note that the French Police are involved with the location of the drop site for the cycles left off at a storage site.

I don't think for a moment this is the end. It is just the tip of the iceberg.

And after the comments with respect to 1998 I'm going to say it is hard not to question anything from then forward. Just hard. Unless this Stefano is a pathological liar. Then there are some unanswered questions out there for more than one cyclist.

Yes, Beaulieu-Sur-Mer wasn't it?

The funny thing is if you look up Varjas' patents you'll find them registered to Typhoon Bikes Limited. They have a webpage. I decided to have a look at their dealer locations:

http://www.typhoonbicycles.com/dealers/

That address in France sure seems familiar... Just a coincidence of course...

Seems it would be more of an issue than just a storage site. now that you pointed it out ....makes it more interesting for me.

Yes, of course, a supplier delivering stock to a town where a dealer is based is MUCH more interesting than a shady deal where bikes are left in a lock up for an unknown middleman like something out of a drug deal.

 

[Tom the Engine]

Yes, Beaulieu-Sur-Mer wasn't it?

The funny thing is if you look up Varjas' patents you'll find them registered to Typhoon Bikes Limited. They have a webpage. I decided to have a look at their dealer locations:

Yeah as per Tienus' post Varjas worked for Typhoon but left on bad terms after a dispute.
So when he mentioned Beaulieu-Sur-Mer in the documentary there's no way that he didn't know its relation to Typhoon. But he didn't say anything. I didn't know this while I was watching the documentary. But I was wondering why he explicitly mentioned a town that was nowhere near the start of the TdF (Netherlands) or the TTT (north-west of France).

Is this just a cheap-shot to make Typhoon look bad in an act of revenge? (Because people would find the connection between Beaulieu-Sur-Mer and Typhoon very soon anyway and draw some conclusions from it.)
Or does he indeed know that Typhoon is involved in technological fraud and this is his way of giving the hint (on where to start digging) without having to say it explicitly?
It would be pretty stupid from Typhoon to order material from Varjas (in a way such that he knows who the customer really is - like: please deliver it to Beaulieu-Sur-Mer) that they intend to use in the TdF after he has publicly sworn vengeance..

I don't know. But the one thing that I'm fairly convinced of is that it cannot be a sheer coincidence that Varjas claimed to have delievered bikes to the same small town where the dealer of a company he's in conflict with resides.

 

[staubsauger]

We had very few speed records on climbs in the zeros compared to the nineties. In fact the times and watts at the 2007 Tour were on an all-time low with one of the most competitive fields. Arguably because they'd to opt for a kinda low-key doping program. Even although Dynepo was undecetable. At the 2008 Giro Menchov climbed the Pampeago pass much slower than Tonkov did in the nineties. It's just very recently that they break those times from the nineties again. Guys Armstrong couldn't beat Pantani's Alp d'Huez time in a tt. This whole motor doping since the nineties has to be a dead end road. It makes zero sense. Remember the pirates speed record dates from 1997. That was still on his Wilier Triestina bike.

 

[sniper]

More mindbogggling omerta.
https://twitter.com/ChadHaga/status/826018238341476353

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

For what it's worth, a major kudos to Greg here.
It may or may not be about Lance for him, but to be honest I couldnt care less.
He has put himself in the cross fire here, when really he didn't need to.
He must be absolutely convinced and gutted by it. Hi involvement is very important, first because he's close to the peloton, second because his reputation is as impeccable as it gets and so it's not as easy to discredit him.

That's as nonsensical as it gets.
- It does matter whether it's mainly about a personal feud or not. Motivations and possible conflicts of interests matter.
- Conviction alone is nothing admirable (without presenting good arguments for it). Strong conviction without reason is dangerous in general.
- Relying on impeccable reputation is bollocks as is argument by authority to not get discredited.
- Closeness to the peloton requires to present stronger evidence than an outsider. Otherwise it's worthless.

I really wish that this will turn out well for Greg someday and he's proven right because I respect him a lot. But in this CBS documentary he looked awful. I felt bad for him.

Probably worth adding:

–Citing someone's reputation after you've spent untold time and energy publicly trying to tarnish it with rumor and innuendo really looks bad as an argument.

To the 60 Minutes piece, I agree it's not a good look at all for Greg getting mixed up in this without anything concrete. Not sure what motivates him on these issues. Not worth speculating about.

 

[sniper]

Still butthurt Red?
You got your expected dig in, congrats, now move on and stay on topic.

 

[yaco]

I wonder about the involvement of the French Police - As far as I know its not a criminal offence to have a motor in a bike - Can someone explain.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I wonder about the involvement of the French Police - As far as I know its not a criminal offence to have a motor in a bike - Can someone explain.

Sporting fraud is a crime in France.


Sky with the heaviest bikes in the peloton. Not a marginal gain is it. And weight is so important.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Yes, Beaulieu-Sur-Mer wasn't it?

The funny thing is if you look up Varjas' patents you'll find them registered to Typhoon Bikes Limited. They have a webpage. I decided to have a look at their dealer locations:

Yeah as per Tienus' post Varjas worked for Typhoon but left on bad terms after a dispute.
So when he mentioned Beaulieu-Sur-Mer in the documentary there's no way that he didn't know its relation to Typhoon. But he didn't say anything. I didn't know this while I was watching the documentary. But I was wondering why he explicitly mentioned a town that was nowhere near the start of the TdF (Netherlands) or the TTT (north-west of France).

Is this just a cheap-shot to make Typhoon look bad in an act of revenge? (Because people would find the connection between Beaulieu-Sur-Mer and Typhoon very soon anyway and draw some conclusions from it.)
Or does he indeed know that Typhoon is involved in technological fraud and this is his way of giving the hint (on where to start digging) without having to say it explicitly?
It would be pretty stupid from Typhoon to order material from Varjas (in a way such that he knows who the customer really is - like: please deliver it to Beaulieu-Sur-Mer) that they intend to use in the TdF after he has publicly sworn vengeance..

I don't know. But the one thing that I'm fairly convinced of is that it cannot be a sheer coincidence that Varjas claimed to have delievered bikes to the same small town where the dealer of a company he's in conflict with resides.

He was working with Typhoon when he delivered the bikes there, he was still emailing them during the Tour that year. He says he sold a bike to an unknown person through a middleman. That sounds exactly like a dealer taking an order and a supplier dropping it off. Deliver the bikes to a locked storage room, translation the dealers warehouse. It sounds like he's decided to try and spin a normal deal into something out of a mob movie.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

sniper, less than 2 weeks ago:

4. with Varjas it's really wait and see for me.
No reason yet to think it won't be interesting.
He said "Festina".
We'll soon know whether he's full of **** or not.
Some more or less reputed cycling folks seem to think he knows what he's talking about.
Ger Gilroy, Greg Lemond, Davide Cassani spring to mind.
Journalists also run to him and print what he says. Investigative journos usually do check their sources, so on the basis of that evidence it would seem that he does have credibility in certain circles.

But if the upcoming documentary doesn't deliver, Varjas will indeed be fully deserving of lables such as "quack" and/or "charlatan".


So where we at? Still no proofs of anything. I can understand that some are skeptical that a few riders have used/experimented with those, but beginning to speculate wildly about motors in bikes from late 90's turns me so much off. Are you serious? Seriously? Seriously?

To put it like sniper did, Varjas fully deserves the lables such as "quack and/or "charlatan". Did the documentary deliver, sniper? To me it was some weak ***. Nothing substantial as usual with those documentaries, wild speculations about some Team Sky bikes from 2015 when Froome rode his worst ITT in TdF and they lose to BMC. Congratz.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

sniper, less than 2 weeks ago:

4. with Varjas it's really wait and see for me.
No reason yet to think it won't be interesting.
He said "Festina".
We'll soon know whether he's full of **** or not.
Some more or less reputed cycling folks seem to think he knows what he's talking about.
Ger Gilroy, Greg Lemond, Davide Cassani spring to mind.
Journalists also run to him and print what he says. Investigative journos usually do check their sources, so on the basis of that evidence it would seem that he does have credibility in certain circles.

But if the upcoming documentary doesn't deliver, Varjas will indeed be fully deserving of lables such as "quack" and/or "charlatan".


So where we at? Still no proofs of anything. I can understand that some are skeptical that a few riders have used/experimented with those, but beginning to speculate wildly about motors in bikes from late 90's turns me so much off. Are you serious? Seriously? Seriously?

To put it like sniper did, Varjas fully deserves the lables such as "quack and/or "charlatan". Did the documentary deliver, sniper? To me it was some weak ****. Nothing substantial as usual with those documentaries, wild speculations about some Team Sky bikes from 2015 when Froome rode his worst ITT in TdF and they lose to BMC. Congratz.

and people will tell you: yea but BY JUST 1 SECOND!
Froome losing 50 seconds to R.Dennis in the 1st stage TT was slow.

 

[MmeDesgrange]

And Beaulieu sur mer is just a 40 minute spin along the coast from Cagnes sur mer