Motor doping thread

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Oct 16, 2010
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I don't think Virenque has been discussed (yet) in the context of motors?
All the discussion, that includes "nothing nada niente" if one of those riders has not been discussed.
I think for some of the other four (or six) names there have been some posts, maybe you can confirm?

As for Virenque, I'm not sure. There are some motor-dodgy performances and names on his (post-Festina) CV, but I probably shouldn't have singled him out. Maybe I confused him for Jalabert or Voeckler, both of whom I do think used a motor. I know, I should watch more races. :)
 
yep...
I really would love a quick resume on what evidence we have on who. Because so far my feeling was people were watching Landis change bike once in a stage and Armstrong touching his bike after a crash

and if anyone could be kind enough to answer if the motor Varjas put in the 1999 trek is a 2016 motor or a 1999 motor?
In other word : do we even know for sure if the techno existed by then?
I was under the impression that the motor was from 2016, but maybe I'm wrong
 
Oct 16, 2010
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It was an old model (1999) motor, according to Varjas.

But that has zero bearing on whether or not "the techno" existed. What do you even mean when you say "the techno"?
If your frame was big enough you could theoretically stuff all sorts of 'analogue' gear-driven motors in there. I guess that would theoretically have been feasible in the 80s already, but the frames of that era don't suggest it happened. Early to mid-90s is when we're starting to see those spacecraft bike frames especially in time trials.

A crank assist motor was available in the 1970s already.
Varjas was still in diapers at the time.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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absolutely_not said:
yep...
I really would love a quick resume on what evidence we have on who. Because so far my feeling was people were watching Landis change bike once in a stage and Armstrong touching his bike after a crash

and if anyone could be kind enough to answer if the motor Varjas put in the 1999 trek is a 2016 motor or a 1999 motor?
In other word : do we even know for sure if the techno existed by then?
I was under the impression that the motor was from 2016, but maybe I'm wrong
Battery technology was available in 1998 for those willing to pay $50 per cell. Spinel variants of Li Ion batteries was developed for high power uses - the main one being cordless power tools. You know, small and light battery powered motors....

Since then battery capacities have doubled, but that's about it. Motors are an ancient technology. Small DC motors of many flavors have been available forever. Think pager motors or slot cars for tiny, cheap and abundant from 30 years ago.

The biggest gains, I think, have been in motor controllers. Being able to shrink power electronics and add some serious smarts gives lots of opportunities to innovate. Rather than switching a motor on or off, you can add wireless controls, have speed/power/torque monitoring and have intelligence about when to automatically turn on a motor and to what level. These days the sky is the limit in terms of features you can add. That's what's new.

Having a hidden, power assisted motor circa 1999? Yeah, it was doable. These days it's just cheap to do and you can order all the components you need online. Maybe even get the gears 3D printed and mailed to you.

John Swanson
 
Jul 5, 2009
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"In 1996, scientists succeeded in using lithium manganese oxide as a cathode material. This substance forms a three-dimensional spinel structure that improves the ion flow between the electrodes. High ion flow lowers the internal resistance and increases loading capability."

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/the_high_power_lithium_ion

This was first commercialized in 1998 and was dominant for high power applications until LiFePO4 came on the scene. This was published in 1997 and lists Moli Energy (where I was working at the time) as a manufacturer of spinel cells. https://books.google.ca/books?id=SI070Alf90oC&pg=PA392&lpg=PA392&dq=moli+energy+spinel&source=bl&ots=Uxpu5lawi-&sig=s9OD_hqC3c3IezONPHNpFjVGIhk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1lq_8n4vVAhVH2T4KHZWzBYUQ6AEIOjAE#v=onepage&q=moli%20energy%20spinel&f=false

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Tienus said:
The official story was a broken spoke in the rear wheel.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2006/stage-17/results/
With 8 km to go before the summit, Landis was given a new bike, because one of his rear wheel's spokes snapped. But he continued straight away, and had no trouble getting back to the front.

Not very likely if you ask me. Just before the swap he is in a turn riding with one hand on the bar as he poors water over himself. Not something I would do with a wobble in my back wheel. He throws the bidon away and his ds pulls alongside and tries to hand him a new waterbottle. Floyd then lets his ds know he wants to change bikes. His rear wheel does not look wobbly in the video before he stops on the side.

This is one of the more suspicious bike changes listed in this thread IMO. There is no indication of a problem from Floyd here. Rather, and quite strangely, the team car comes up and appears to say something to him, at which point he dismounts, discards his bike, and quickly remounts.

As you indicate he is riding hard at the front right before this. I don't know how one would determine if he has a wheel wobble or not from his riding style, one could easily have a minor rear wheel issue that wouldn't affect steering or happened quickly enough that he just would immediately jump off the bike. So that claim holds little weight for me, rather it's the odd manner of the change I outline above that is suspicious. He does not at any point indicate he's having a problem, then just discards the bike as if it's totaled. It's odd.

So let's assume he's been given a bike with a motor at this point. Of course I don't know that's true but let's just assume so for the sake of discussion. At this point he already has 5:30 or more on the yellow jersey group, a great bulk of what he'll gain for the day. Does this mean he had a motor from the beginning of the stage and the second bike is a planned, motorized replacement? Let's say that's true because it's rather a bit less compelling to assume he used a motor to finish the race but gained the great bulk of time, a crazy amount of time, with his initial solo attack.

So this begs the question, did he use a motor the whole race? If so, what happened on La Toussuire? He cracked so completely that it's really difficult to imagine that he had a motor on this stage. It would seem that a motor would have kept his losses somewhere south of the 10 minutes or whatever that he did lose. It was one of the biggest collapses in GT stage racing I've ever seen, if not the biggest.

So if that's the case I have to wonder why would he not be using a motor on that stage if it were available to him? It must have been available. Did he use it on other stages? If so, odd that he would not on Stage 16. Did it fail? He looked in extremis on that stage, not tired or just failing to keep up, but really in physiological trouble. So I don't really buy that this stage was the result of a motor failure on a single stage. If that, then did the team just have it in reserve and decided given the events of Stage 16 to use the nuclear option? Why, if there was no talk in the media about motors and certainly no way for the UCI to test them, would they not have a motor available on every stage? Further, why go to all the trouble of doping the way Landis claims to have done? Or are all his tales of doping on Postal and at Phonak lies to cover up motor use? I have a very difficult time believing that.

I'm not suggesting anyone is making any of the above claims, these are simply the questions I have in my head when trying to evaluate the claim of motor-doping. If we're going to say the suspicious bike change is explained by a motor, we have to make sense on some level when and how motors were used by Landis in this race.

For me the more one thinks about how the team might have planned for and deployed a motor, the more sticky questions come up.

Great post.

Never really looked into the whole 'motor' thing to be honest. I've always considered such suggestions absurd.

Having said that, some people are willing to go to whatever lengths possible, if they think they can get away with it.

Still, using a motor on a bicycle is a great step up; on an immoral level, and on probably other levels too.

Sure, doping has been curtailed a little from 10-20 years ago, but if motors were prevalent today then wouldn't the record climbing times of the '90's be being beaten, if not smashed?

Nobody has come at all close to Pantani's d'Huez record in recent years (not even Landis in '06). How is that possible if motors are now prevalent?

And what about time trial speeds?

To be honest, if it was revealed that someone like Contador used a motor, I would be (as a fan) devastated.

Doping is one thing. Motors are another beast entirely imo.

Doping is maybe getting a woman to sleep with you after you've made her believe that you make $250,000 a year instead of the $50,000 reality. Using a motor is basically rape. I doubt that I could continue to watch this sport if I believed that most of the GC GT contenders were doing that.

It would be like Michael Jordan using a trampoline to dunk over Patrick Ewing.
 
Re: Re:

If you previously had cancer, or knew of someone who had cancer, because of the PEDs you/they were taking, would racing with a motor be as difficult a decision if you wanted to make a living as a professional cyclist if you knew what needed to be done to race at that level? I'd do it if I had to.
 
Re: Re:

One more thought before I go to bed: what if all of this "Lance doped" talk started only because someone was going to accuse/prove him of motor doping, and he decided to plead guilty to using PEDs instead?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Thanks ebandit, although i'm not sure myself.
The rear wheel doesn't drag over the ground like e.g. Hesjedal's did, so maybe it just retained the original momentum/impetus/spin.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
absolutely_not said:
yep...
I really would love a quick resume on what evidence we have on who. Because so far my feeling was people were watching Landis change bike once in a stage and Armstrong touching his bike after a crash

and if anyone could be kind enough to answer if the motor Varjas put in the 1999 trek is a 2016 motor or a 1999 motor?
In other word : do we even know for sure if the techno existed by then?
I was under the impression that the motor was from 2016, but maybe I'm wrong
Battery technology was available in 1998 for those willing to pay $50 per cell. Spinel variants of Li Ion batteries was developed for high power uses - the main one being cordless power tools. You know, small and light battery powered motors....

Since then battery capacities have doubled, but that's about it. Motors are an ancient technology. Small DC motors of many flavors have been available forever. Think pager motors or slot cars for tiny, cheap and abundant from 30 years ago.

The biggest gains, I think, have been in motor controllers. Being able to shrink power electronics and add some serious smarts gives lots of opportunities to innovate. Rather than switching a motor on or off, you can add wireless controls, have speed/power/torque monitoring and have intelligence about when to automatically turn on a motor and to what level. These days the sky is the limit in terms of features you can add. That's what's new.

Having a hidden, power assisted motor circa 1999? Yeah, it was doable. These days it's just cheap to do and you can order all the components you need online. Maybe even get the gears 3D printed and mailed to you.

John Swanson
Good stuff.

And if you look at the type of frames they were using in time trials in the 90s, you don't even have to look for very advanced battery or motor technology. You could basically stuff anything in there.

In disc wheels, mechanics can and could go full *** with the type of rear hub motors Tienus mentioned earlier in regards to Floyd 2007. Things like this:
https://www.google.nl/search?q=hub+motor+gear&tbm=isch&imgil=AEiTgvCDgXPjOM%253A%253BOlHpEPmciXOirM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.topsecretev.com%25252Fhelical-cut-steel-planetary-gears-for-hub-motors%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=AEiTgvCDgXPjOM%253A%252COlHpEPmciXOirM%252C_&usg=__soPIfDPoEHO-9JKCmn753CobUWw%3D&biw=1745&bih=885&ved=0ahUKEwi2u5jYiJHVAhUML1AKHftFCJ0QyjcIOw&ei=NBJtWbbREIzewAL7i6HoCQ#imgrc=AEiTgvCDgXPjOM:
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Lim, who works with elite-level riders out of his Boulder headquarters, worked with Landis in 2005 and 2006, but said that he was never employed by Landis. In 2005, Lim analyzed Landis’ power files and says he was paid by the Saris Cycling Group. Lim maintained a diary that was used by PowerTap to promote its sponsorship and relations with Landis, Lim wrote.

“The PowerTap was a major part of my doctoral work and Floyd wanted an expert in this realm to help him with his training analysis and feedback.
I worked with Floyd as part of my contract with PowerTap in 2005 at the Tour of Georgia, Catalunya, and then after the Dauphiné in his lead up to the 2005 Tour de France as well as at the ‘05 Tour de France itself,” Lim wrote.

In 2006, the year that Landis won the Tour and tested positive for testosterone, Saris paid Lim to analyze Landis’ power files at the Tour only. Lim claims he maintained spreadsheets of Landis’ training data.

http://www.velonews.com/2012/10/news/lim-says-hes-clean-in-wake-of-usada-findings-tried-to-thwart-landis-doping_261680#bHOhe42YQgH6AiAS.99
Releasing those PowerTap power files of stage 17 could go a long way in disproving the rear hub motor hypothesis, I reckon.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Some competition for Hesjedal and Van Aert.
From 0:28 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-_xSn9-WWk

Love durianrider's commentary: "These motorized bikes are little bit dicey in the corners".

The rear wheel is doing exactly what it should be doing unless you are running hubs that are to tight or just junk, if this is suspect then I myself must be running a motor and not know it as I've had wheels spin like that when coming off the bike.

Paying attention to anything durianrider posts up online isn't the greatest idea, he's a fool of the highest degree.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Lim, who works with elite-level riders out of his Boulder headquarters, worked with Landis in 2005 and 2006, but said that he was never employed by Landis. In 2005, Lim analyzed Landis’ power files and says he was paid by the Saris Cycling Group. Lim maintained a diary that was used by PowerTap to promote its sponsorship and relations with Landis, Lim wrote.

“The PowerTap was a major part of my doctoral work and Floyd wanted an expert in this realm to help him with his training analysis and feedback.
I worked with Floyd as part of my contract with PowerTap in 2005 at the Tour of Georgia, Catalunya, and then after the Dauphiné in his lead up to the 2005 Tour de France as well as at the ‘05 Tour de France itself,” Lim wrote.

In 2006, the year that Landis won the Tour and tested positive for testosterone, Saris paid Lim to analyze Landis’ power files at the Tour only. Lim claims he maintained spreadsheets of Landis’ training data.

http://www.velonews.com/2012/10/news/lim-says-hes-clean-in-wake-of-usada-findings-tried-to-thwart-landis-doping_261680#bHOhe42YQgH6AiAS.99
Releasing those PowerTap power files of stage 17 could go a long way in disproving the rear hub motor hypothesis, I reckon.

The PowerTap files for stage 17 were released online in 2006, I'm not sure if they still are out there.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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David Millar motorized at worlds TT 2003?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4586&v=2KOQ_GXGBc0

I think this is one of the most suspicious rides I've seen thus far in terms of suspected motor use.

It's only a 41.6km course, but Millar is nevertheless going to win this one with a good 1:25 margin on the number 2, a Ferrari-fueled Mick Rogers.

That in itself is nothing overly suspicious - rampant PED-abuse could explain it.
However, what makes this performance remarkable is the fact that, some kilometers from the finish line, Millar (seemingly in consultation with his team leader in the follow car) starts freewheeling like I've never seen anybody - let alone the winner of the worlds TT - freewheel before

So much so that he lets himself be overtaken by Gonchar, whom he had previously overtaken, and who had started three minutes before him.

From the race report:
Millar is chasing Serguei Gontchar up the long second climb, but for a minute looked to be losing ground, perhaps indicating a problem. He's closing the gap once again (Gontchar started three minutes ahead) but will need to pace himself carefully to maintain his advantage on Peschel and Rogers.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/worlds03/?id=emtt
Start watching at 57:20-ish (watch it through to around 59:00-ish), to see Gonchar overtake a freewheeling Millar.

As far as I can tell from that footage, there is nothing there that indicates any kind of mechanical for Millar. Indeed he never changes bikes or wheels. More to the point: it's plain freewheeling like I've rarely seen anybody freewheel during a world's TT, let alone the guy who ends up winning it averaging more than 48.3 km/h. The body language, to me, suggests he's being told to take it easy because it's going to look too ridiculous.

Gonchar, by the way, had started 3 minutes ahead of Millar, with Nozal in between.
start list:
...
4 Serguei Gontchar (Ukraine) 14:46:30
3 Isidro Nozal Vega (Spain) 14:48:00
2 David Millar (Great Britain) 14:49:30
1 Michael Rich (Germany) 14:51:00

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/worlds03/?id=emtt

Gonchar ends up finishing 21st, 3:11 minutes behind Millar.
So, Millar first overtakes Gonchar at some point, then lets himself (seemingly deliberately) drop back, and then overtakes Gonchar again.

Some will no doubt argue it can still all be explained by means of a rampant PED-program.
But have a look at Millar's face when he crosses the finishline and receives the congratulations, from ca. 1:03:15 onwards.
This is a world's TT. He's supposedly delivering a max effort here. Even with all the high-octane PEDs in the world, wouldn't we expect Millar to show at least some signs of exhaustion there?
However, there's absolutely nothing.

On a side, Millar's bike for the 2003 TT was designed by a certain Dimitris Katsanis, who'd been contracted by BC (Peter Keen) already in 2001 (2002 according to some sources) to design the GB bikes for track and road.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/from-paupers-to-kings-the-lottery-funded-revolution-93603
Katsanis has previously been mentioned here:
viewtopic.php?p=1860279#p1860279
and here:
viewtopic.php?p=2143200#p2143200

Thoughts please.


(mods: if not considered thread-worthy, feel free to relocate to the motor thread)
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Samhocking, as Michelle would say, it seems you did "not "fully" understand.
1. Millar overtakes Gonchar (at which point he has 3 minutes on him)
2. Millar starts freewheeling as if he's riding through town on a Dutch city bike.
3. Gonchar overtakes a freewheeling Millar (a few km before the finish)
4. Millar then starts giving gas again, and overtakes Gonchar again, putting another 10 seconds into him (eventually finishing 3:11 ahead of Gonchar)

Whilst there is no evidence of a motor in that footage, there is (imo) evidence of very weird, deliberate freewheeling, with the objective of losing time because it was starting to look awfully ridiculous. There is also evidence of a Millar who seems to have not put in any kind of effort, at all, at the finish line.

The bike was designed by Katsanis, who ever since has continued to work for BC developing bikes and wheels (including those "magic wheels" the French spoke about). In 2013, Cookson hired Katsanis as a technical consultant for UCI.
 
Millar v Rogers Splits (up)

8km - 24.8s
20.5km - 37.3s
28.8km - 56.6s
41.3km - 1:25.1s

Gained ~37s on Rogers first lap
Gained ~48s on Rogers second lap

Millar v Peschel Splits (up)

8km - 7.6s
20.5km - 36.4s
28.8km - 1:03s
41.3km - 1:25s

Gained ~36s on Peschel first lap
Gained ~48s on Peschel second lap

Millar v Gontchar Splits (up)

8km - 38.6s
20.5km - 1:31s
28.8km - 2:33s
41.3km - 3:11s

Gained ~1:31s on Gontchar first lap
Gained ~1:40s on Gontchar second lap