- May 5, 2010
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Well, you're the one who started speculating about whether a proven cheater cheated in a different way as well.
He was on EPO (at least I think it was EPO), let's just leave it at that. Was moto-fraud even a thing back then?
He was on EPO (at least I think it was EPO), let's just leave it at that. Was moto-fraud even a thing back then?
Look at the video as Sniper pointed out. Millar is sitting up not using his aero bars while Gontchar who, according to you, blew up passes him. Somehow Millar Still made time on his competitors that lap.
It reminds me of Cancellara in Rio, although Fabian was going slow in the beginning of the race.
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Re:
Maybe we are the only two left in the clinic that finds these changes a laugh? What was wrong with the one he just dropped off? Li ion cells were dead?Benotti69 said:
Re: Re:
Even Kimmage (previously rather silent on the motor issue) is now doing the math on the bike changes.
Meanwhile Cummings today looked as if he couldn't shut off his engine in time and had no choice but to ride off into the green:
https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/887625060084842496
Wanted to break, but his bike said no. :lol:
That's after he climbed the Pyrenees with deep section wheels.
Even Kimmage (previously rather silent on the motor issue) is now doing the math on the bike changes.
Meanwhile Cummings today looked as if he couldn't shut off his engine in time and had no choice but to ride off into the green:
https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/887625060084842496
Wanted to break, but his bike said no. :lol:
That's after he climbed the Pyrenees with deep section wheels.
Re: Re:
Admittedly, not many seem to be able to laugh about it..but no, you're not the only two.
For the record, ca. two years ago already Tienus began posting about the increasing number of wheel and bike changes and how it might correlate with motor-use. Only now a wider cycling audience are very slowly beginning to catch up, as it's becoming too obvious.
Still looks like there is a thick wall of ignorance out there, though, especially among cycling journos.
I guess it's not easy to come to terms with the fact that there is more to procycling than PEDs.
You may have noticed that on the last three or four pages or so we've been talking (and, indeed, laughing) about Floyd's bike change(s). We've previously laughed hard about Cancellara's, Sagan's, Froome's, and Contador's bike swaps, too.Semper Fidelis said:
Admittedly, not many seem to be able to laugh about it..but no, you're not the only two.
For the record, ca. two years ago already Tienus began posting about the increasing number of wheel and bike changes and how it might correlate with motor-use. Only now a wider cycling audience are very slowly beginning to catch up, as it's becoming too obvious.
Still looks like there is a thick wall of ignorance out there, though, especially among cycling journos.
I guess it's not easy to come to terms with the fact that there is more to procycling than PEDs.
- Mar 13, 2013
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That Millar wasn't slowing down like you claim? He was speeding up compared to his previous lap and speeding up compared to 2nd and 3rd during the last climb, therefore your claim he was 'freewheeling with the objective of losing time because it was starting to look awfully ridiculous' is false.
sniper said:
That Millar wasn't slowing down like you claim? He was speeding up compared to his previous lap and speeding up compared to 2nd and 3rd during the last climb, therefore your claim he was 'freewheeling with the objective of losing time because it was starting to look awfully ridiculous' is false.
- Apr 3, 2009
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LOL. Nada. Terrible place to make a fake change with such a long wait. Obviously not planned. After the fact, obviously no performance benefit.
More phantoms.
DanielSong39 said:
LOL. Nada. Terrible place to make a fake change with such a long wait. Obviously not planned. After the fact, obviously no performance benefit.
More phantoms.
- Jul 10, 2010
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This post is awesome. The author has refused to look at Sniper's video and so has no idea what is going on (la la la I'm not listening) and then, away from what we see, there is also the reality. Has the poster ever caught his 3 minute man in a 25 mm TT? Not a laughing boy who does not know how to ride but someone real competent, giving it full gas in a big event ? You go past them, you never ever let them come back at you. What we see just doesn't happen if the contest is real.
Sam before you put finger to keyboard again, just watch the whole video all the way through and then talk to someone who has ridden at least say 40 time trials. The guys Millar destroys are fully gassed and he could have put another 30 seconds into them before he eased up. 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th are only separated by 15 seconds. Any muppet believing Millar's fairy story about what he took, needs to look in the mirror. Even this week Millar was still at it peddling the omerta - Migel Indurain won the Tour 5 times clean - telling lies to the little ones - it is just what he does.
Sam, Millar will dream of people like you when he finishes his gig at the studio and opens the door to his Maserati, and he will say a little prayer. Thank you Sam, thank all of the Sams who listen to me and believe, keep believing.
samhocking said:
This post is awesome. The author has refused to look at Sniper's video and so has no idea what is going on (la la la I'm not listening) and then, away from what we see, there is also the reality. Has the poster ever caught his 3 minute man in a 25 mm TT? Not a laughing boy who does not know how to ride but someone real competent, giving it full gas in a big event ? You go past them, you never ever let them come back at you. What we see just doesn't happen if the contest is real.
Sam before you put finger to keyboard again, just watch the whole video all the way through and then talk to someone who has ridden at least say 40 time trials. The guys Millar destroys are fully gassed and he could have put another 30 seconds into them before he eased up. 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th are only separated by 15 seconds. Any muppet believing Millar's fairy story about what he took, needs to look in the mirror. Even this week Millar was still at it peddling the omerta - Migel Indurain won the Tour 5 times clean - telling lies to the little ones - it is just what he does.
Sam, Millar will dream of people like you when he finishes his gig at the studio and opens the door to his Maserati, and he will say a little prayer. Thank you Sam, thank all of the Sams who listen to me and believe, keep believing.
Contador did a record Glandon-Croix de Fer. I'm not sure there was no performance benefit from a motor. Besides that he has a habit of changing bikes, he also did one yesterday. He has been called out for the changes so he might make it look like bad luck. I also wonder why he did not try to put his chain back on himself.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8703/Guimard-claims-Contador-could-have-used-mechanical-doping-in-Giro-dItalia.aspx
If you look at the mechanical from Van Avermaet in PR this year you could say the same: Terrible place to make a fake change with such a long wait.
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/1.2947009
Its the first video.
Its where the race realy starts. The commentry is Flemmish and starts with: "From now on its serious".
If you understand the commentry you will hear that Renaat Schotte, who is a motorcycle commentator, is being asked where the bike came from. He replies that it was from someone who was at the site of the road. He also comments that he was very fortunate the guy was there with the bike. I have to agree that he was very lucky to receive a bike that was good enough for him to win the race on. Why did BMC place a guy with a spare bike at the side of the road at the beginning of a cobble sector? Surely thats not the best place, usually they wait at the end of those sectors.
- Apr 3, 2009
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Re:
I heard he did a record Croix de Fer, which is notable, but he did not fare well at all on the Galibier. So I guess the conclusion is that he changed out of a motorized bike into a clean one? Not sure how that makes any sense. Re-load? Then why didn't the bike allow him to at least hold off the others? He's that out of shape? Getting fuzzier and fuzzier. And it still makes no sense that he would fake a mechanical at a point where he had to wait so long for a change. Whatever Van Avermaet did in another unrelated race. Would it not have been much easier to make the change a few minutes earlier where the road was more open?
I don't reject the notion that he may have used motor doping in the past. I find it unlikely that today's events indicate motor doping. Further, the "LOL" which was posted, as if it's totally obvious he was motor doping, seemed ridiculous to me. Probably wouldn't have commented without that.
When the incident happened I immediately wondered what was up and wondered if it looked suspicious. I do find it odd that a dropped chain would cause a bike change with such a wait. I don't have an alternate explanation other than to speculate about a busted derailleur which of course can't be verified. Certainly fixing the chain would have been much faster than standing there for as long as he did. But I don't see where he got anything but slower after the change.
Tienus said:
I heard he did a record Croix de Fer, which is notable, but he did not fare well at all on the Galibier. So I guess the conclusion is that he changed out of a motorized bike into a clean one? Not sure how that makes any sense. Re-load? Then why didn't the bike allow him to at least hold off the others? He's that out of shape? Getting fuzzier and fuzzier. And it still makes no sense that he would fake a mechanical at a point where he had to wait so long for a change. Whatever Van Avermaet did in another unrelated race. Would it not have been much easier to make the change a few minutes earlier where the road was more open?
I don't reject the notion that he may have used motor doping in the past. I find it unlikely that today's events indicate motor doping. Further, the "LOL" which was posted, as if it's totally obvious he was motor doping, seemed ridiculous to me. Probably wouldn't have commented without that.
When the incident happened I immediately wondered what was up and wondered if it looked suspicious. I do find it odd that a dropped chain would cause a bike change with such a wait. I don't have an alternate explanation other than to speculate about a busted derailleur which of course can't be verified. Certainly fixing the chain would have been much faster than standing there for as long as he did. But I don't see where he got anything but slower after the change.
Re:
The entire point of the advances made in the last decade plus hasn't been in motors or batteries. It's been in motor controllers and miniaturization of those controllers. You no longer need to do an on/off scenario at a specific power and torque. It would now be easy to add enough smarts so that the system knows (based on speed, cadence, grade, power, whatever variables) when to turn on, and how much power to apply. The latter can be controlled by modifying the motor voltage. Add some wireless communications and upgrade your Garmin and you can have a secure connection to monitor the system. Or add a cell phone app.
Hidden motors and batteries since the late 90's? Doable. Smart as hell? Yeah. That can be done. Upload the day's stage profile and add a GPS unit and the bike will take care of the rest.
Don't bother looking for switches or hand movements anymore. Not needed. It's kind of (exactly) like the EPO era. You can mail order from China, or you can use some serious cash to buy a few experts that will tailor a solution that knocks it out of the park.
John Swanson
ebandit said:
The entire point of the advances made in the last decade plus hasn't been in motors or batteries. It's been in motor controllers and miniaturization of those controllers. You no longer need to do an on/off scenario at a specific power and torque. It would now be easy to add enough smarts so that the system knows (based on speed, cadence, grade, power, whatever variables) when to turn on, and how much power to apply. The latter can be controlled by modifying the motor voltage. Add some wireless communications and upgrade your Garmin and you can have a secure connection to monitor the system. Or add a cell phone app.
Hidden motors and batteries since the late 90's? Doable. Smart as hell? Yeah. That can be done. Upload the day's stage profile and add a GPS unit and the bike will take care of the rest.
Don't bother looking for switches or hand movements anymore. Not needed. It's kind of (exactly) like the EPO era. You can mail order from China, or you can use some serious cash to buy a few experts that will tailor a solution that knocks it out of the park.
John Swanson
Just watched the bit of the race where Contador changes. Just before the change the Jury car with Leblanc and Macron stopped for some tv time. They caused a bit of a split between the group and the team cars. After that you can see Contador twice talking in his radio while pedalling normaly behind Mollema. Shortly after he stopped.
I ask myself the same questions Red. No idea what happened today. Same with Landis and his bad day.
I ask myself the same questions Red. No idea what happened today. Same with Landis and his bad day.
Re: Re:
""More phantoms".
More logic fail.
"I can't get my head around xyz, therefore it's not happening".
It's how Lance fans used to go about.
So many things they couldn't get their heads around. Ergo Lance must have been clean.
There are no phantoms.
We have three ingredients:
- history of cheating
- availability of the technology since at least the late 90s
- UCI complicity
Mix them, and the logical result is that all current pro-riders are *potential* motor users.
That doesn't mean they're all using. Not at all. It does mean we are forced to question and re-examen all top performers and performances of the last 15-20 years.
Sad state of affairs, which we owe to the UCI and guys like Phat and Brian.
""More phantoms".
More logic fail.
"I can't get my head around xyz, therefore it's not happening".
It's how Lance fans used to go about.
So many things they couldn't get their heads around. Ergo Lance must have been clean.
There are no phantoms.
We have three ingredients:
- history of cheating
- availability of the technology since at least the late 90s
- UCI complicity
Mix them, and the logical result is that all current pro-riders are *potential* motor users.
That doesn't mean they're all using. Not at all. It does mean we are forced to question and re-examen all top performers and performances of the last 15-20 years.
Sad state of affairs, which we owe to the UCI and guys like Phat and Brian.
- May 26, 2010
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If a 19 year old nobody gets caught with a motor in a race, you can be sure these things are widespread.
That the UCI are fluffing around bikes with a tablet just shows how interested they are in catching motor bikes.
I mean when i heard all the TeamGB bikes are no longer available after Rio, because they broke just stinks!!!!
This needs the police to do something, but until they take it seriously and teams dont get tipped off we wont see much on motors.
That the UCI are fluffing around bikes with a tablet just shows how interested they are in catching motor bikes.
I mean when i heard all the TeamGB bikes are no longer available after Rio, because they broke just stinks!!!!
This needs the police to do something, but until they take it seriously and teams dont get tipped off we wont see much on motors.
- Apr 3, 2009
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Re: Re:
History of doping and cheating in many forms. Yes. Technology available. Yes. UCI complicity? Well you'd have to define that for an informed response. They certainly have been complicit in covering up doping. Not clear that has been the case in motor doping. Not clear at all, and incentives would suggest otherwise.
The major logic fail here is that you seem to be arguing with someone who is saying there is no motor doping. Which I'm pointedly not. I'm pointing out several instances of where you and others see motor doping when no evidence for it exists. You see it every time a wheel spins or a bike changes. I find it a bit hysterical. It sucks, because it degrades the conversation, and mostly it's just dumb to read. There are plenty of intelligent posts on the topic. No one's calling those examinations phantoms.
I appreciate the sensible response and reading comprehension exhibited by Tienus in response to my post above. It stands in stark contrast to what I read here, sadly.
Lance fans. Really, quite amazing stuff.
You're shooting your own arguments in the foot with your hysteria.
sniper said:
History of doping and cheating in many forms. Yes. Technology available. Yes. UCI complicity? Well you'd have to define that for an informed response. They certainly have been complicit in covering up doping. Not clear that has been the case in motor doping. Not clear at all, and incentives would suggest otherwise.
The major logic fail here is that you seem to be arguing with someone who is saying there is no motor doping. Which I'm pointedly not. I'm pointing out several instances of where you and others see motor doping when no evidence for it exists. You see it every time a wheel spins or a bike changes. I find it a bit hysterical. It sucks, because it degrades the conversation, and mostly it's just dumb to read. There are plenty of intelligent posts on the topic. No one's calling those examinations phantoms.
I appreciate the sensible response and reading comprehension exhibited by Tienus in response to my post above. It stands in stark contrast to what I read here, sadly.
Lance fans. Really, quite amazing stuff.
You're shooting your own arguments in the foot with your hysteria.
Re: David Millar motorized at worlds TT 2003?
Well that is bizarre. Presumably Millar didn't mention any issues that might have been resolved off camera?
If as you suggest he was told to ease up to appear more plausible, you'd think he'd show at least modicum of subtlety. Like, maybe don't completely sit up like a domestique finished for the day. And don't do it when you've just passed your 3 minute man so the relative speed isn't so obvious.
sniper said:
Well that is bizarre. Presumably Millar didn't mention any issues that might have been resolved off camera?
If as you suggest he was told to ease up to appear more plausible, you'd think he'd show at least modicum of subtlety. Like, maybe don't completely sit up like a domestique finished for the day. And don't do it when you've just passed your 3 minute man so the relative speed isn't so obvious.
Re:
Alspacka, agree it's bizarre. The freewheeling like he's out shopping, and then the complete lack of exhaustion on his face at the finish line, after putting 1 and a half minute into a bunch of epic dopers on a 41.5km stretch. As Freddy says, without the freewheeling he could've put another half a minute at least into them.
Indeed the Powertap rear hub is there:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/millar-denied-by-snapped-chain-at-the-last-96123
And they're doing very well in time trials, too:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tech-exclusive-david-millars-felt-da-tt-bike-96258
Alspacka, agree it's bizarre. The freewheeling like he's out shopping, and then the complete lack of exhaustion on his face at the finish line, after putting 1 and a half minute into a bunch of epic dopers on a 41.5km stretch. As Freddy says, without the freewheeling he could've put another half a minute at least into them.
Phonak became Garmin Slipstream. So there we suddenly have Vaughters, Millar, and Lim together.MarkvW said:
Indeed the Powertap rear hub is there:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/millar-denied-by-snapped-chain-at-the-last-96123
And they're doing very well in time trials, too:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tech-exclusive-david-millars-felt-da-tt-bike-96258
Re:
Going slow in the beginning, then turning on the engine in the final kms.
5km before the finish he was still only 3rd.
As far as I can tell, whether it's the Millar-way, or the Ulrich/Cancellara-way, such an uneven spread of energy, during a relatively short time trial, it doesn't make sense.
You will normally aim to overcook yourself a little well before the finish, and then hang on. You'd normally not risk saving your energy for the very final kms, because you might misjudge and not get it all out there.
Ulrich, 2001, worlds TT, a very similar story.Tienus said:
Going slow in the beginning, then turning on the engine in the final kms.
5km before the finish he was still only 3rd.
As far as I can tell, whether it's the Millar-way, or the Ulrich/Cancellara-way, such an uneven spread of energy, during a relatively short time trial, it doesn't make sense.
You will normally aim to overcook yourself a little well before the finish, and then hang on. You'd normally not risk saving your energy for the very final kms, because you might misjudge and not get it all out there.
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