Motor doping thread

[Marxten]

I didn't think someone could produce a hub motor yet, in my opinion a bb-motor was more likely (still a low risk, high reward). I stand corrected.

Still think Roglic in Strade Bianche is unlikely but suspect (it's much more likely to be in time trials I think, also because of the risk that if you flat neutral service takes your wheel... that doesn't happen in TTs), but it's gotten a whole lot closer at this point.

 

[sniper]

Re:

If you haven't already seem this:

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/this-is-what-its-like-to-ride-a-bike-with-a-hidden-motor

Probably too heavy for Pro use. I'm pretty sure that this is what a local guy set up last year, but I haven't talked to him or his crew since last summer.

Not much news in that link, but still an interesting review. I think crank assist is still the way to go in the amateur/semi-pro/masters scene.

I thought you asked some good questions in the MTB thread. I'm copying your post here, maybe John or someone else can shed some thoughts on it.

jmdirt said:

I did an easy ride today so while I was spinning up a 20 minute climb (10 if riding hard , the Stade hypothetical motor popped into my head. My number one question is still the same as I posted on the Motor Fraud thread: how do you get a skewer through it to hold the wheel on, especially a 12 mm through axle for dirt use? Another question is, how does the motor spindle get its power to the freewheel? The spindle is really small, are they assuming to use watch size gears to get the power to the freewheel? If so, would that even last for one ride? The lack of explanation of how their hypothetical motor would work just makes me doubt them more.

I didn't spend much time looking, but here is a planetary gear drive that could be used with the motor to allow it to drive the freewheel:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWVT4&P=FR&atrkid=V3ADW3A24148B_10642245165_pla-69845187350__36556522365_g_c_pla_with_promotion__1o3&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8b_MBRDcARIsAKJE7lkisiHNGaKX7ys-H7l4Phq-li69V9hZwtQqwZrZWdmfS5-qn3y34OQaAq32EALw_wcB

That's one more piece that has to be added inside of limited space.

They could spline (key) the end of the shaft and put a gear directly on it, but that would require a unique freehub body housing too. And that still leaves the question of the small spindle handling the loads needed.

Again, I'm not saying that no one would do it or it can't be done, but the rear hub just doesn't seem like the most workable area. IMO, there is no rear hub motor in use in pro dirt racing. If you want to find space for hidden motor development, how about the BB?

 

[Marxten]

Mountainbikes don't have a radially laced front wheel. That opens up the front hub for a possible motor, and with the boost standard taking over there is more space than before.

Also: There is no neutral service in a MTB race, so no chances that your wheel passes into someone's hands without your knowledge.

(And in a response why some riders stay in the MTB scene when they could earn more in the WT: Schurter tried and didn't cut it and someone like MvdP doesn't like road racing, so he's splitting his time between CX and XC. I don't think he is alone in that)

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Isn't the rim in the FLIR image the same temperature or hotter than the supposed hub motor?

Heat generated from tire contact on with road.

 

[jmdirt]

Keep an eye out for this:
https://content.superpedestrian.com/the-copenhagen-wheel

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Isn't the rim in the FLIR image the same temperature or hotter than the supposed hub motor?

Heat generated from tire contact on with road.

No, it's the friction heat generated by the break pads.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Isn't the rim in the FLIR image the same temperature or hotter than the supposed hub motor?

Heat generated from tire contact on with road.

No, it's the friction heat generated by the break pads.

Why not both? FYI, hysteresis losses in high performance tires is about 15 Watts per wheel at 35 km/hr. It's the second biggest source of drag after aerodynamics.

John Swanson

 

[adamfo]

Re: Re:

Isn't the rim in the FLIR image the same temperature or hotter than the supposed hub motor?

Heat generated from tire contact on with road.

No, it's the friction heat generated by the break pads.

'brake'

I'm curious why some seem to think moving parts like bearings don't generate heat...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Isn't the rim in the FLIR image the same temperature or hotter than the supposed hub motor?

Heat generated from tire contact on with road.

No, it's the friction heat generated by the break pads.

'brake'

I'm curious why some seem to think moving parts like bearings don't generate heat...

They do, but it's a tiny amount. On a bicycle the loads are low and the speeds are miniscule. There just isn't much friction. That's why ceramic bearings are a total scam. The majority of bicycle bearing losses are in the seals. If you're curious, SKF has a great bearing calculator on their website. Put in some numbers and you'll see what I'm talking about.

John Swanson

 

[Tienus]

Michael Boogerd mentions in a tv show that Floyd did a second bike change after finishing stage 17 of the 2006 tour. A soigneur quickly changed his bike to an identical one immediately after the finish. Team rabo discussed it at the diner table according to Michael and the conclusion wasthat he must have been using an underweight bike.
https://dewerelddraaitdoor.vara.nl/media/307993
Dutch language at 1:35 in the video.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Michael Boogerd mentions in a tv show that Floyd did a second bike change after finishing stage 17 of the 2006 tour. A soigneur quickly changed his bike to an identical one immediately after the finish. Team rabo discussed it at the diner table according to Michael and the conclusion wasthat he must have been using an underweight bike.
https://dewerelddraaitdoor.vara.nl/media/307993
Dutch language at 1:35 in the video.

Since you posted here I'm assuming that you are insinuating that he had a motor, hence the bike change. He has divulged quite a bit, so why would he withhold motor fraud?

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

Since you posted here I'm assuming that you are insinuating that he had a motor, hence the bike change. He has divulged quite a bit, so why would he withhold motor fraud?

Its a good question that has been asked before. If you type Landis in the search box on top of this thread you get some plausible answers from different posters.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re:

Keep an eye out for this:
https://content.superpedestrian.com/the-copenhagen-wheel

Even the UCI would be hard pushed to turn a blind eye to that.

 

[adamfo]

After Cancellara's antics am I right in assuming the UCI banned taking a spare bike from some guy standing at the side of the road ?

 

[noddy69]

Re:

Keep an eye out for this:
https://content.superpedestrian.com/the-copenhagen-wheel

Surely that could be modified easily for a TT bike and a few quid

Features here with two other options -( the Geo orbital shape mirrors some front TT bike wheels seen recently )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH20aE-4d-g

 

[Tienus]

Re:

After Cancellara's antics am I right in assuming the UCI banned taking a spare bike from some guy standing at the side of the road ?

Van Avermaet won PR this year after taking a spare bike from some guy standing at the side of the road.

 

[jmdirt]

I got some info about the guy I have referred to who has a downtube/BB motor (reminder: he is very open about having it). This is a 50ish year old guy who has been a cyclist, Nordic skier, and XC runner his entire life, but he is a half a century old. With the motor on, he was unable to hang with local cat. 1s on a moderate climb. So, its not a massive game changer, but obviously if you take two elite guys, with full programs, the motor will make a difference.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Keep an eye out for this:
https://content.superpedestrian.com/the-copenhagen-wheel

Even the UCI would be hard pushed to turn a blind eye to that.

They are, thats the guts of a TT wheel :lol:

 

[Tienus]

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

 

[Tienus]

Testing being done on a hub motor.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903890363684978688

 

[ScienceIsCool]

How shocking! Wait, no it isn't. The iPad can't work, and it doesn't matter because you can build motors without any permanent magnets.

John Swanson

 

[ontheroad]

Very bad timing for Cookson if this gets out as it will put the UCI under the scrutiny as to how this was allowed to happen. They previously obstructed French police and the testing procedures for motors has been a joke.

 

[TeflonDub]

Re:

Very bad timing for Cookson if this gets out as it will put the UCI under the scrutiny as to how this was allowed to happen. They previously obstructed French police and the testing procedures for motors has been a joke.

Exactly. I'm sure Cookson wouldn't put himself in the same position as he did last year watching Roglic's glowing rear hub at Strade Bianchi on the same Stade 2 programme. Could make for a very uncomfortable final few weeks for Cookson before the UCI presidential electron. The motor detection theatericals they've tried to pawn off as effective will hopefully be exposed for what they are. They've tested over 20,000 bikes, and even if you accept UCI's claim that the iPad found Femke's motor (it didn't, it was intelligence from other riders), that would still make the UCI's motor detection and regulation enforcement to be ten times more effective of a deterrent than murder laws - 0.005% violation rate for UCI's iPad vs. 0.06% of the US population who have ignored the murder laws.

 

[S2Sturges]

Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

The whole iPad affair was a ruse anyway, a ridiculous public affairs exercise to make it look like there was a real effort being made to contain mechanical doping. Too many little mistakes and slip ups from Ryder's spinning back wheel up to Foome's bike behaving strangely are not being investigated for what they are... The UCI is doing the Sargent Schultz...

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Stade 2 is looking at mechanical fraud again tomorrow. This time they are testing the ipad.

https://twitter.com/thierryvildary/status/903871866623930368

Looks like it is Lappartient vs Cookson. Great timing.