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Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
What exactly do you have against Amador?.... I have seen you have questioned his performances in the road racing forum as well

There are hundreds and hundreds who are a lot more shady than Amador IMO
That a bit of a stretch don't you think? He didn't exactly come out of nowhere in the 2015 Giro but it was a suspect performance and rightfully questioned
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

BigMac said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
Did Amador not win that stage?
He did. But what of it?
 
Apr 22, 2012
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jens_attacks said:
he beat jan barta, who is a czech, of course.


duh.
Most riders beat Czech rider, Jens ;) If this really is my motivation, I would do this all days long and nothing else.

P.S. what about Poels, he never beat Czech rider? Or, the other way round, Cancellara, Froome, Quintana, Cunego, Pozzovivo, Kreuziger and so on.

You can carry on with your nationality thing, but.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
What exactly do you have against Amador?.... I have seen you have questioned his performances in the road racing forum as well

There are hundreds and hundreds who are a lot more shady than Amador IMO
If you put it this way, I totally agree, there are those who are lot more shady, lot of them have their own thread here in clinic where everthing has been discussed on hundreds of pages. Not so much for Amador. I only noticed that rather average cyclist took 4th place at GT whicg really sticks out, not very normal.
On the other hnad it seems that you refuse to see that it's suspect performance.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
BigMac said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
Did Amador not win that stage?
He did. But what of it?
So he couldn't follow Bárta on the Col de Joux... but won the stage by being the best in the break on the climb to Cervinia at the end. So it sounds kind of like Bárta cooked himself by going too hard early in the stage and Amador rode a smarter race, no?

His being 4th in the Giro was a shock, but choosing (as an example to prove his climbing had improved dramatically) that he was dropped by a non-climber three years earlier on a stage where he actually won on a mountaintop finish is one of the worst examples you could have picked to point that out, because while Bárta may have been stronger on the Col de Joux, Amador was stronger on Cervinia.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Valv.Piti said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
What exactly do you have against Amador?.... I have seen you have questioned his performances in the road racing forum as well

There are hundreds and hundreds who are a lot more shady than Amador IMO
If you put it this way, I totally agree, there are those who are lot more shady, lot of them have their own thread here in clinic where everthing has been discussed on hundreds of pages. Not so much for Amador. I only noticed that rather average cyclist took 4th place at GT whicg really sticks out, not very normal.
On the other hnad it seems that you refuse to see that it's suspect performance.
Amador isn't average by any stretch of the imagination tho, he is a team player, a very important domestique, always doing his fair share of work and his very strong in all kinds of terrain. It just so happened that a couple of favourites were under par and it was a very hard ridden Giro, one for the diesels, with many stages in rain and every stage basically being very hard ridden..

So no, I don't think it was a suspect performance. Hesjedal and Kruijswijk were way better in the real mountains, Porte abandoned, Urán was sick and then what? You don't see many quality GC-riders apart from the one mentioned here. It wasn't expected, but I honestly didn't think that he did something out of the ordinary for a rider like him, no.
 
In all the years as a pro Amador had 6 top 10 stage race finishes. A 4th in the Giro was actually his best stage race result in 52 stage races that he had started.

Somehow despite this record he is looking like a top-10 rider for the second year in a row.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Kokoso said:
BigMac said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
Did Amador not win that stage?
He did. But what of it?
So he couldn't follow Bárta on the Col de Joux... but won the stage by being the best in the break on the climb to Cervinia at the end. So it sounds kind of like Bárta cooked himself by going too hard early in the stage and Amador rode a smarter race, no?
No, you haven't seen it, did you? Barta went alone on Col de Joux and gain 40 seconds advantage but lost his advantage downhill because his tyres were very slippy so he couldn't descend fast, so Amador passed him downhill and build up a lead. First De Marchi caught with him and Barta caught with them late. True, Barta didn't take leads if I remember correctly. Everything was decided in final sprint, where Barta opened sprint and kind of lead out Amador. There was no time gap between the two. Amador won that stage in the sprint.

So, Amador definitely didn't make the difference uphill. First time non-climber Barta gapped Amador uphill, then he was able to caught Amador uphill again. In one stage. Surely you know that win in the sprint doesn't have to depend on climbing strength.

So does this example show Amadors climbing improved a lot? I'm nut sure but I think rather it does. If Amador was able to make a difference uphill he wouldn't wait for final sprint, would he? These days Amador would never be caught by de Marchi or Barta.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Kokoso said:
Valv.Piti said:
Kokoso said:
How about Amador? I realize that it probably has been discussed here throughly but don't have enough power to read this all. Last year's Giro surprise. In 2012 he couldn't follow Bárta who is not climber at all on Col de Joux, 2045 4th at Giro. Only one proffesional win. Not excatly most expectable result. Not exactly Froomish, but far from what he ever had done before.
What exactly do you have against Amador?.... I have seen you have questioned his performances in the road racing forum as well

There are hundreds and hundreds who are a lot more shady than Amador IMO
If you put it this way, I totally agree, there are those who are lot more shady, lot of them have their own thread here in clinic where everthing has been discussed on hundreds of pages. Not so much for Amador. I only noticed that rather average cyclist took 4th place at GT whicg really sticks out, not very normal.
On the other hnad it seems that you refuse to see that it's suspect performance.
Amador isn't average by any stretch of the imagination tho, he is a team player, a very important domestique, always doing his fair share of work and his very strong in all kinds of terrain. It just so happened that a couple of favourites were under par and it was a very hard ridden Giro, one for the diesels, with many stages in rain and every stage basically being very hard ridden..

So no, I don't think it was a suspect performance. Hesjedal and Kruijswijk were way better in the real mountains, Porte abandoned, Urán was sick and then what? You don't see many quality GC-riders apart from the one mentioned here. It wasn't expected, but I honestly didn't think that he did something out of the ordinary for a rider like him, no.
I meaned average climber, and GC wise, especially in grand tours. Do you want to pretend he looked more then average contender GC wise before Giro 2015 and 4th place wasn't shocker even given circumstances you've described? Than you are lying yourself.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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But I'm Czech and Amador beat Barta and I do post in clinic about every cyclist who beats Czech rider :rolleyes:

And bunch of others here considering his performance suspect must be Czech, too :rolleyes:
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Betancur is so far from his top climbing level and given his descent performance in LBL where it surely wasn't only about punch, one wonders what's happening with him. It's suspect. I know all that long story about wonder boy not training, getting fat etc., but still, he sucks so hard that it's suspect.
 
Re:

Kokoso said:
Betancur is so far from his top climbing level and given his descent performance in LBL where it surely wasn't only about punch, one wonders what's happening with him. It's suspect. I know all that long story about wonder boy not training, getting fat etc., but still, he sucks so hard that it's suspect.
The only suspect thing about Betancur is his historic lack of motivation, his obesity and his lack of discipline. But other than that you could be onto something with him!
 
Betancur doesn't seem particularly surprising to me. He's been visible doing work and had a few weak attacks.
He had some good results in Asturias and Castilla y Leon, but those races are what they are, with Caja Rural the only competition for Movistar. Ok he was visible near the end of LBL but I don't know what anybody expects him to do at the Giro because of that.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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luckyboy said:
I don't know what anybody expects him to do at the Giro because of that.
To climb at some level. Not with the best, but at least something. He has a history of being one of the best climbers back in 2013 Giro. So one would expect him to climg at least decently when he is on form, but no, he's actually really terrible. Or is it normal that those who once were great climbers completely lose it?
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
luckyboy said:
I don't know what anybody expects him to do at the Giro because of that.
To climb at some level. Not with the best, but at least something. He has a history of being one of the best climbers back in 2013 Giro. So one would expect him to climg at least decently when he is on form, but no, he's actually really terrible. Or is it normal that those who once were great climbers completely lose it?
It's not "normal" because most riders don't completely capitulate in terms of motivation like Carlos did a couple of years ago; getting back to any sort of level has been a struggle. However, amongst riders (of all types) who become that unmotivated, horrendous underperformance, increasingly brief periods of form and disappearance are not out of the ordinary - think of people like José Rujano, Andy Schleck, Juanjo Cobo. And also there are many riders (especially when not leading a team) who will, if they sense their form isn't right, just let go rather than fight to stay on - think of people like Menchov; especially when they're domestiques. These kind of riders are almost all suspect, but not necessarily for the same reason. I suspect what we have is that because he was out of shape, Bananito started his season late (Milan-San Remo) and has ridden himself into form through those smaller Spanish stage races towards the Ardennes where he had one real good day, but just like many who try to hold form through the whole Giro after a full spring campaign, his form is now running out, and because that coincides with the move of the Giro towards the bigger mountain stages, its effect is being exacerbated, plus the guy just isn't capable of being at the level he was in 2013 even on peak form.
 
The explanation for Betancur failures are not in the Clinic but on the regular Road Racing forum. His thread is one of the most visited for the wrong reasons. There you can find all kind of excuses and explanations. The food menu illustrated on that thread is also magnificent! :D
 
Re: Re:

IzzyStradlin said:
Escarabajo said:
The food menu illustrated on that thread is also magnificent! :D
Link? Tried to find it but there's a lot to dig through.
The mighty BANDEJA PAISA, a Colombian traditional dish from the Antioquia region and one of the most calorific platters you will ever see in your life, including steak, chicharrón, chorizo, arepas, plantain, fried egg, beans, avocado, rice...

 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
luckyboy said:
I don't know what anybody expects him to do at the Giro because of that.
To climb at some level. Not with the best, but at least something. He has a history of being one of the best climbers back in 2013 Giro. So one would expect him to climg at least decently when he is on form, but no, he's actually really terrible. Or is it normal that those who once were great climbers completely lose it?
Hi Kokoso. Once again, I think you are off limits - and once again, not because I like Betancur!

If you have followed him in 2016, it is quite obvious that he has had his best results on the hilly stages - he has won 2 in lesser Spanish stage races. Once it was time to defend the jersey in Castilla y Leon where he obtained the jersey, he lost 3 minutes on a MTF in a very, very weak field.
The story was the same in the next stage race he rode in Asturias, just before the Giro and after his very good performance in Lieja, albeit reversed this time. He was once again atrocious (considering his recent display of form) at the MTF, but once it got more hilly, he won the day after.

This Giro has shown the same tendencies. Atrocious in mountains and decent (relative to the field) in the hilly stages. He looked good on the stage Ulissi won, even tho he wasn't able to bridge. That he even entertained the idea and was close speaks of decent shape.

Carlos Betancur is still fat and would need one more year to reach his former level in the hills - in the mountains, Im afraid all hope is over concerning climbing as well as in the Giro of 2013.
 
Four years for Roson. But like Sky and JTL, the offence happened before he joined the Movistar team.
“The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) announces that the UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal has rendered its decision in the case involving Jaime Roson Garcia,” a statement on the UCI website read.

“The Anti-Doping Tribunal found the rider guilty of an anti-doping rule violation (Use of a prohibited substance) based on abnormalities detected in his Biological Passport and imposed a 4-year period of ineligibility on the rider.”

Roson was notified of the findings at the end of June last year, several weeks after his last race at the Criterium du Dauphine. The anomaly occurred in January 2017, when Roson was still racing at Caja Rural.
 

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