Movistar

[Dr. Maserati]

Basic criteria?! HA! And you claim not to be naive?

Yeah, because everyone is the same and everyone's career trajectory must be exactly the same as Quintana's to prove themselves clean since he is the base model for clean athletes, right?

Come on.

Nope, but it is what would be expected.
If someone is an outstanding talent, it should show from an early age.
You can train for a lot of things, but talent should always be there.

Let's look at it from another point of view. Quintana comes from simple conditions and is born in a poor country with (presumably) a lack of coordinated national testing where making it would be life changing. Incentive to dope? Hell yes.

Lets look at it from yet another view - if you are going down the simple and poor Coombian route, how would a poor 20 year old on a poor Colombian team afford these practises?

 

[Beech Mtn]

<snipped>

Let's look at it from another point of view. Quintana comes from simple conditions and is born in a poor country with (presumably) a lack of coordinated national testing where making it would be life changing. Incentive to dope? Hell yes.

There's a WADA-accredited lab in Bogotá.

 

[Walkman]

Nope, but it is what would be expected.
If someone is an outstanding talent, it should show from an early age.
You can train for a lot of things, but talent should always be there.

Talent should always be there, yes. But will the talent always be visible? You have to take into account a number of factors and it's impossible to tell unless you are the person in question.

Lets look at it from yet another view - if you are going down the simple and poor Coombian route, how would a poor 20 year old on a poor Colombian team afford these practises?

A valid question. But from what I understand isn't a lower level doping program expensive. Take your PED's, get picked up by a team with some more financial muscle and get on a better program. Or just ride clean and dominate in the junior ranks and get on a program when you get picked up.

And even if you dominate when you are young, there is no guarantees that you will make it big time when you step it up a notch and compete with the pro's.

I am not saying he is doped but I have to comment in here once in a while since there are so many hypocrites in here. They flame all the hate on Froome while Contador and quintana are seen as heroes. Makes me sick.

 

[Walkman]

There's a WADA-accredited lab in Bogotá.

Well, if you have some info regarding the actual testing, that would be interesting. Like how many test were conducted, which types of tests, how small amounts they can trace, how many they have caught (annually) and so on.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Talent should always be there, yes. But will the talent always be visible? You have to take into account a number of factors and it's impossible to tell unless you are the person in question.



A valid question. But from what I understand isn't a lower level doping program expensive. Take your PED's, get picked up by a team with some more financial muscle and get on a better program. Or just ride clean and dominate in the junior ranks and get on a program when you get picked up.

And even if you dominate when you are young, there is no guarantees that you will make it big time when you step it up a notch and compete with the pro's.

I am not saying he is doped but I have to comment in here once in a while since there are so many hypocrites in here. They flame all the hate on Froome while Contador and quintana are seen as heroes. Makes me sick.

Ah, your earlier post was more about Froome, got it.

No-one is saying that Quintana is a hero and I sure would not suggest he is not doping. But he is talented.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Well, if you have some info regarding the actual testing, that would be interesting. Like how many test were conducted, which types of tests, how small amounts they can trace, how many they have caught (annually) and so on.

That info is in the public domain. Published annually. But I'll let you look for it yourself.

 

[roundabout]

I wonder how many dodgy Spanish doctors of the 00's ended up in South America?

There should be one ex-Xacobeo Galicia doctor at least.

 

[Arnout]

Let's look at it from another point of view. Quintana comes from simple conditions and is born in a poor country with (presumably) a lack of coordinated national testing where making it would be life changing. Incentive to dope? Hell yes.

Opinions are only useful when backed up by facts. It is not hard to find out that Quintana rode for Colombia es Pasion in his last years in Colombia (as did most of the other young Colombian talents). It was already argued in this topic that this is a special team with excellent support. Money is a big problem for the team though, they lack an official equipment sponsor and foreign trips are a real challenge. However, the coach and trainer insists on running an internal doping testing program. They are the only team in Colombia running (voluntarily, as it is not required by any organization) the blood passport, simply to prove that their talents are clean and that European teams can trust their methods. I am sure that some of you will argue that they will only do this to enable microdosing, but this doesn't really add up, as that method does not bring them many wins in Colombia (which would be logical if this was their goal, as they have the best talents).

So, there might not be enough testing in Colombia (there might not be enough testing everywhere...) but Quintana's team in Colombia was doing everything possible to prevent doping.

For a little background on the manager, I recommend reading his twitter: @elcoach. He is perhaps the most outspoken figure occupying a role within cycling on the matter of anti-doping (more so than Vaughters et al).

 

[Beech Mtn]

Following on from something from the Froome thread about these pro athletes having all these odd/rare diseases, this recent bit from Eros Capecchi:

I wanted to do a good Giro but I wasn't at my best, then I went to the Dauphiné and I also suffered. I'd worked hard and so I knew there must be something wrong. I suffered with an allergy problem at the Giro and always seemed to above my race weight even if I did some long rides and didn’t eat. I discovered that my body was full of toxins. As well as having had a subdued form of mononucleosis, I also discovered I had the remains of a childhood Streptococcus virus that flared up because my diet was based on white meat and eggs."

Capecchi is confident he has overcome the problems after changing his diet and is keen to pay back the trust of Movistar team manager Eusebio Unzue.

I've shown I'm going well and Unzue has praised me. He said he's seen the rider he always knew was there. I'll have the freedom to ride for myself at the Vuelta and I'm confident because I think I can do well

This raised questions. How does strep virus left over from childhood flare up due to meat & eggs? I love Movistar, but I'm not going to put a hand in the fire and claim the whole team is super clean.

I think sometimes the Vuelta historically got used to try out new doping regimens. I hope that's not what is going on here, but reading Capecchi's statements raised suspicions. Pre-planting a story to explain any jump in form and results? I hope not, but this is cycling. And after the TdF, we're might be due for some guys to step up their "programs" next year.

 

[sniper]

I wonder how many dodgy Spanish doctors of the 00's ended up in South America?

There should be one ex-Xacobeo Galicia doctor at least.

but if the docs don't go to the riders, the riders go to the docs.

Race Radio ‏@TheRaceRadio 15h

Uran, Henao and Quintana are roommates, they share an apartment in Spain http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IDHT6wor-...s1600/479977_569805823054136_1008451767_n.jpg … Things you learn on http://www.cyclinginquisition.com

 

[Dr. Maserati]

but if the docs don't go to the riders, the riders go to the docs.

Maybe Henao, Uran & Quintana moved to Spain (where it is illegal to dope) to get away from those nasty Docs?
You're welcome.

 

[sniper]

Maybe Henao, Uran & Quintana moved to Spain (where it is illegal to dope) to get away from those nasty Docs?
You're welcome.

giving cyclists benefits of doubts is something journalists do, not me.

somehow they all end up in spain.

even blanco went to girona in preparation for races in...italy and france.
but if garmin's fishing for ex-real madrid and ex-ONCE phlebotomists in spain isn't even fishy to you.

i know about the formidable training conditions, the hills, the lovely whether, the good flight connections, all that. but if you haven't been living in a cave in the past few years, or under a rock, you just can't avoid the sense that those conditions are only of secondary importance.

let skepsis be your guide, doc.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

giving cyclists benefits of doubts is something journalists do, not me.

somehow they all end up in spain.

even blanco went to girona in preparation for races in...italy and france.
but if garmin's fishing for ex-real madrid and ex-ONCE phlebotomists in spain isn't even fishy to you.

i know about the formidable training conditions, the hills, the lovely whether, the good flight connections, all that. but if you haven't been living in a cave in the past few years, or under a rock, you just can't avoid the sense that those conditions are only of secondary importance.

let skepsis be your guide, doc.

You're right - I cannot understand why those Colombians don't just go back to Colombia after every race, you can sleep on the plane.

And even if they did decide to stay in Europe why Spain indeed? Its not like they share the same the language are anything


But, you're right I should let 'skepsis' not logic dictate - I suppose the good news is that Froome lives in Monaco, nowhere near Spain, so he must be clean, right?

 

[Arnout]

giving cyclists benefits of doubts is something journalists do, not me.

somehow they all end up in spain.

even blanco went to girona in preparation for races in...italy and france.
but if garmin's fishing for ex-real madrid and ex-ONCE phlebotomists in spain isn't even fishy to you.

i know about the formidable training conditions, the hills, the lovely whether, the good flight connections, all that. but if you haven't been living in a cave in the past few years, or under a rock, you just can't avoid the sense that those conditions are only of secondary importance.

let skepsis be your guide, doc.

You know what language is used in Colombia?

 

[sniper]

You're right - I cannot understand why those Colombians don't just go back to Colombia after every race, you can sleep on the plane.

And even if they did decide to stay in Europe why Spain indeed? Its not like they share the same the language are anything


But, you're right I should let 'skepsis' not logic dictate - I suppose the good news is that Froome lives in Monaco, nowhere near Spain, so he must be clean, right?

was i talking about colombians in my previous post?

anyway, language, darn, hadn't thought about that.
indeed, what a splendid reason for garmin to fish up spanish docs and for largely english-speaking teams to be based in spain.
and of course, language explains why blanco went and train there as well.
you are a big thinker indeed.

 

[sniper]

You know what language is used in Colombia?

i guess you were replying to this post?

but if the docs don't go to the riders, the riders go to the docs.

well, of course colombians going there as a stand-alone fact is not remarkable and no reason to be skeptic. i was half joking, but i don't blame you for not having noticed the twinker, especially since i'm not at all joking about my skepsis wrt spain in general, sky-tenerife, garmin&OGE in girona, hiring a fair share of spanish docs and phlebotomists as well.
blanco going there to train in prep for races in france and italy. etc.
i'm skeptic there, yeah.

if you have the time, check out the first couple of posts in the thread opened by Cloxxki on the Dutch athlete Herzog.
gives you a better idea of what spain has meant and still means for athletes looking to juice themselves up.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

was i talking about colombians in my previous post?

anyway, language, darn, hadn't thought about that.
indeed, what a splendid reason for garmin to fish up spanish docs and for largely english-speaking teams to be based in spain.
and of course, language explains why blanco went and train there as well.
you are a big thinker indeed.

I was happy to put Blanco & Garrmin in the teams that go there for "the formidable training conditions, the hills, the lovely whether, the good flight connections, all that" - but that's just logic and not skepsis.

 

[sniper]

I was happy to put Blanco & Garrmin in the teams that go there for "the formidable training conditions, the hills, the lovely whether, the good flight connections, all that" - but that's just logic and not skepsis.

here's a toast to your good faith.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

here's a toast to your good faith.

I think Dr Mas is plenty suspicious enough of the amount of teams going to particular hubs like Girona.

There are nearly 300 000 Colombians living in Spain. This is the largest community of Colombians in Europe by a long way (the next largest is Italy, with 20 000 Colombians). With cycling being primarily based in Europe, considering that a group of Colombians basing themselves in Spain is evidence of doping is perhaps stretching things. Certainly being in Spain offers up doping opportunities for a professional cyclist, but there are more reasons than just doping that an aspiring Colombian cyclist would choose Spain as their base.

Now, these particular cyclists happen to be attached to two suspicious teams, so there can be suspicions around them from that and from other things, but choosing to take up residence in Spain is a very, very minor factor here.

 

[hrotha]

The Girona/Spain thing ignores a key factor: once a community develops somewhere, it'll attract more of the same people. Even if US Postal chose Girona because it made doping easier while still being good for training and traveling, it doesn't follow that everyone else must be looking the same thing. If everybody living in Girona stopped doping, they'd still be there to attract other riders.

Same with the Colombians. Soler was also living there, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[sniper]

I think Dr Mas is plenty suspicious enough of the amount of teams going to particular hubs like Girona.

There are nearly 300 000 Colombians living in Spain. This is the largest community of Colombians in Europe by a long way (the next largest is Italy, with 20 000 Colombians). With cycling being primarily based in Europe, considering that a group of Colombians basing themselves in Spain is evidence of doping is perhaps stretching things. Certainly being in Spain offers up doping opportunities for a professional cyclist, but there are more reasons than just doping that an aspiring Colombian cyclist would choose Spain as their base.

you're right of course. and i've acknowledged this already in response to arnout.
let me stress again here that my skepsis wrt spain is not in any way related to the fact that colombians are having a party over there.
i only mentioned the colombians in a post which was ment to be slightly ironic (in response to roundabout). but the irony got lost (my fault surely) and it brought the discussion back to spain.

 

[Benotti69]

You're right - I cannot understand why those Colombians don't just go back to Colombia after every race, you can sleep on the plane.

And even if they did decide to stay in Europe why Spain indeed? Its not like they share the same the language are anything


But, you're right I should let 'skepsis' not logic dictate - I suppose the good news is that Froome lives in Monaco, nowhere near Spain, so he must be clean, right?

Logic in cycling is to treat them all as dopers until proven otherwise.

 

[sniper]

choosing to take up residence in Spain is a very, very minor factor here.

i don't think it's a minor factor, but that's just my skepsis hindering my sight probably.
anyway, hiring ex-real madrid phlebotomists is also just one minor factor.

and what about blanco going there in prep for races in france and italy. why not going to france or italy.
mollema had never ridden the mont ventoux prior to this years tour, which by most cycling commentators was seen as a very odd fact.
luckily, though, he had ridden some hills in girona. great thinking by blanco.
as i said, somehow everybody ends up in spain.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Logic in cycling is to treat them all as dopers until proven otherwise.

You never cycled? Don't know any cyclists?

And how do you "prove otherwise"? From what I can see you can't - so why do you bother?

 

[sniper]

You never cycled? Don't know any cyclists?

And how do you "prove otherwise"? From what I can see you can't - so why do you bother?

are you personally acquainted with anybody from garmin?
honest question.