Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[carton]

Re: Re:

I only wrote that it was Contador who attacked and that is simply a fact. Quintana worked a lot in that stage but he still wouldn't have been in the situation to gain minutes on Froome if Contador hadn't attacked

Actually it was Brambilla, who ended up taking the stage, that attacked. Contador countered and Quintana went with them and pressed on.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Quintana needs to prove that he actually deserve this win instead of riding so defensively.

Needs to ATTACK on stage 18.

He's already won a stage on one of the hardest climbs of the race, thanks to an earlyish attack. That's why he's in a very strong position now and could ride more defensively today. What exactly does he need to prove?

The reason why he should have attacked wasn't because he should prove something but because he had to gain time. He was incredibly lucky and gained the time anyway but if poopgate hadn't happened most people here would right now probably say that Dumoulin has won the giro, and that would be absolutely justified.

Why do you think he cares so much about Dumoulin though? There really wasn't the urgency to destroy him today. He said himself, he knew Dumoulin would lose time one way or another, and he will again in the coming days. Even though its stage 16, we're only about half way through the race in terms of really challenging stages. The danger was and is Nibali, who Quintana marked on the climb.

If he attacked earlier in the day, he's vulnerable to a counter punch by Nibali if he realises later on that he's having a bad day, or wastes energy on the headwind in the valley.

Well if you think that Nibali was the bigger danger than Dumoulin this discussion won't lead to anything because then we just disagree about one very important factor.

Fair enough. But do you think if you offered Quintana at the start of the day, taking five minutes on Dumoulin, but losing a minute to Nibali he would have accepted it?

 

[movingtarget]

I just don't think he had the legs. Nibali put him under pressure even before the descent. I think that's why Movistar were not more aggressive. After Dumoulin's hard day today you would think that Movistar will be more aggressive tomorrow.

 

[dacooley]

very very average stage from Nairo. quite weak by the standarts of the climber who should supposedly thrash this mediocre climbing field on week 3. still he has the most optimal chance to be in maglia rosa on sunday.

 

[carton]

Re:

I just don't think he had the legs. Nibali put him under pressure even before the descent. I think that's why Movistar were not more aggressive. After Dumoulin's hard day today you would think that Movistar will be more aggressive tomorrow.

They'd want to dangle Amador again and hope someone else latches on, as today, but Amador is too far out now. So I don't know how they keep the pressure on. I think they just slow play tomorrow, hope that Bahrain seizes the momentum. As has been said, Dumoulin is not the only danger, you don't want to lose time on Nibali. And Quintana seems still a bit off, probably form the crash, so they would likely just rather have him mark the moves and reassess after the stage. Seems like a hard stage to take time on, anyway.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador never gives up, either he wins or he dies trying. Quintana lost at least one TDF because he didn't try enough. This would never happen to Contador. But sure, find excuses for Quintana's cowardice

Well, it's basically been a case of 'die trying' in the last five years since Fuente De. Meanwhile, Quintana has won a Giro and a Vuelta thanks to very long range breaks, supplemented by gaining time in a more orthodox manner when necessary.

meanwhile, Contador also won a Tirreno and was very close to taking 2 Paris-Nice, thanks to his aggressive racing. Quintana would rather sit back and hope the race turns in his favor.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re:

very very average stage from Nairo. quite weak by the standarts of the climber who should supposedly thrash this mediocre climbing field on week 3. still he has the most optimal chance to be in maglia rosa on sunday.

That tells you every bit how good he is.

 

[yaco]

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Fair enough. But do you think if you offered Quintana at the start of the day, taking five minutes on Dumoulin, but losing a minute to Nibali he would have accepted it?

Hard to say, it completely depends on the circumstances. But I don't think a scenario in which Quintana loses one minute to Nibali was likely anyway. Nibali looked pretty strong but I don't think Quintana was close to drop.

 

[Moviestar]

Re:

I just don't think he had the legs. Nibali put him under pressure even before the descent. I think that's why Movistar were not more aggressive. After Dumoulin's hard day today you would think that Movistar will be more aggressive tomorrow.

Yep. Began already on the Stelvio, with the ''strange'' decision to call Anacona back from the front and then sending him back to the front (fighting for the stage win?) , Nairo apparently didn't feel 100% . Not much later the less favoured climber of the three, G.Izagirre, was also called back to support Nairo.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

many did. Movistar as well, probably, because why else did they send 3(!) riders in the break (who were caught before Quintana attacked)

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

many did. Movistar as well, probably, because why else did they send 3(!) riders in the break (who were caught before Quintana attacked)

The fact that one of those three riders dropped to help, but instead fought back to the front, indicates that Nairo wasn't feeling all too well today. Their plan was obviously to have Anacona bridge the gap between Nairo and Amador/Gora, and let Amador/Gorka do the descent. But that entire plan goes or falls with Nairo's legs.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

many did. Movistar as well, probably, because why else did they send 3(!) riders in the break (who were caught before Quintana attacked)

The fact that one of those three riders dropped to help, but instead fought back to the front, indicates that Nairo wasn't feeling all too well today.

yep, but that also shows the original plan was for him to attack

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Who anticipated that Quintana would attack from far ? Only the naive ! In saying that he looks a touch off his best level.

many did. Movistar as well, probably, because why else did they send 3(!) riders in the break (who were caught before Quintana attacked)

The fact that one of those three riders dropped to help, but instead fought back to the front, indicates that Nairo wasn't feeling all too well today.

yep, but that also shows the original plan was for him to attack

Indeed.

 

[perico]

Re: Re:

Contador never gives up, either he wins or he dies trying. Quintana lost at least one TDF because he didn't try enough. This would never happen to Contador. But sure, find excuses for Quintana's cowardice

Nah, Quintana lost that Tour because he was too aggressive on LPSM.

He attacked from over 50km to isolate the yellow and wound up taking over a minute and a half on him in the biggest race in the world. Can't recall the last time Contador pulled of a successful attack, from that far out, at the Tour. Care to refresh my memory?

2014 Tirreno. You could also say the 2015 Giro considering he had to go pretty much Solo up the Terminillo after starting over 1 minute back due to mechanical.

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

The eternal wheelsucker back to his normal self. Unable to do anything for himself except capitalising on others effort. Dragging Nairo in the lead seems to be the tactics and i just wonder how others feel about that.

 

[perico]

Re: Re:

Contador never gives up, either he wins or he dies trying. Quintana lost at least one TDF because he didn't try enough. This would never happen to Contador. But sure, find excuses for Quintana's cowardice

Well, it's basically been a case of 'die trying' in the last five years since Fuente De. Meanwhile, Quintana has won a Giro and a Vuelta thanks to very long range breaks, supplemented by gaining time in a more orthodox manner when necessary.

Contador has as many GT wins as Quintana over the last 5 years

 

[Mr.White]

Not a true racer imo. True champion would attack on Stelvio, with 3 teammates ahead. I think he was afraid of Dumoulin. But luck was on his side once again, like in his 2 previous GT wins. He's in good position right now, I think Nibali will be main threat, he gain huge confidence with today's win. Dumoulin will bleed slowly but surely, I think...

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Contador never gives up, either he wins or he dies trying. Quintana lost at least one TDF because he didn't try enough. This would never happen to Contador. But sure, find excuses for Quintana's cowardice

Well, it's basically been a case of 'die trying' in the last five years since Fuente De. Meanwhile, Quintana has won a Giro and a Vuelta thanks to very long range breaks, supplemented by gaining time in a more orthodox manner when necessary.

Contador has as many GT wins as Quintana over the last 5 years

Both of which he won in very conservative fashion. Didn't even win a stage at the Giro and just wheelsucked Froome on the big stages at the Vuelta. Which is fair enough - that's how GTs can be won. I have no problem with that, but Contador's showy attacks are generally out of desperation - a last throw of the dice. And usually fail. Quintana's obviously not in a situation yet where he needs to do anything like that yet.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re:

Not a true racer imo. True champion would attack on Stelvio, with 3 teammates ahead. I think he was afraid of Dumoulin. But luck was on his side once again, like in his 2 previous GT wins. He's in good position right now, I think Nibali will be main threat, he gain huge confidence with today's win. Dumoulin will bleed slowly but surely, I think...

What exactly was his luck in his two previous GT wins? Being much better than the opposition, being alert when a break forms...?

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Contador never gives up, either he wins or he dies trying. Quintana lost at least one TDF because he didn't try enough. This would never happen to Contador. But sure, find excuses for Quintana's cowardice

Nah, Quintana lost that Tour because he was too aggressive on LPSM.

He attacked from over 50km to isolate the yellow and wound up taking over a minute and a half on him in the biggest race in the world. Can't recall the last time Contador pulled of a successful attack, from that far out, at the Tour. Care to refresh my memory?

2014 Tirreno. You could also say the 2015 Giro considering he had to go pretty much Solo up the Terminillo after starting over 1 minute back due to mechanical.

I meant at the Tour. For all the marbles.

The eternal wheelsucker back to his normal self. Unable to do anything for himself except capitalising on others effort. Dragging Nairo in the lead seems to be the tactics and i just wonder how others feel about that.

Yes, up the Umbrailpass, Nairo spent no time in the wind. Like on Blockhaus and Oropa, he just sat all the way up. Unlike the rest of the courageous leaders who refused to follow wheels out of honour.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Not a true racer imo. True champion would attack on Stelvio, with 3 teammates ahead. I think he was afraid of Dumoulin. But luck was on his side once again, like in his 2 previous GT wins. He's in good position right now, I think Nibali will be main threat, he gain huge confidence with today's win. Dumoulin will bleed slowly but surely, I think...

Ridiculous analysis. You recognise that Nibali is the main threat, but criticize Quintana for his tactics which were... to mark Nibali's attacks. Instead insisting he should have gone on a very risky long range attack, where he could have been countered, could have found out he had bad legs, could have been hung out to dry inthe valley, or loads of other things.

As Quintana said, he knew Dumoulin would bleed time one way or another. He's not a proven three week racer. Nibali is, and was the guy Quintana was watching today.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Both of which he won in very conservative fashion. Didn't even win a stage at the Giro and just wheelsucked Froome on the big stages at the Vuelta. Which is fair enough - that's how GTs can be won. I have no problem with that, but Contador's showy attacks are generally out of desperation - a last throw of the dice. And usually fail. Quintana's obviously not in a situation yet where he needs to do anything like that yet.

Except for the fact that he would have likely had a TDF win under his belt now if he'd tried one of those "showy, desperate" attacks. But you knew that already. Just --> belittle Contador, find any possible excuse for Quintana and Movistar, rinse and repeat. Classic DFA post.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Both of which he won in very conservative fashion. Didn't even win a stage at the Giro and just wheelsucked Froome on the big stages at the Vuelta. Which is fair enough - that's how GTs can be won. I have no problem with that, but Contador's showy attacks are generally out of desperation - a last throw of the dice. And usually fail. Quintana's obviously not in a situation yet where he needs to do anything like that yet.

Except for the fact that he would have likely had a TDF win under his belt now if he'd tried one of those "showy, desperate" attacks. But you knew that already. Just --> belittle Contador, find any possible excuse for Quintana and Movistar, rinse and repeat. Classic DFA post.

I doubt that very much. Of course his tactics could be better at times, but I think he is generally very calculated and gets pretty close to the best out of his abilities. Plus, rightly imo, he values podium places and so isn't prepared to throw that away for a move which has a very slim chance of working. I struggle to see why it's hard to accept that the most entertaining strategy for fans often isn't the best one for the rider.

No need for the personal attack, by the way. Surely we can just discuss this like adults.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

Contador never gives up, either he wins or he dies trying. Quintana lost at least one TDF because he didn't try enough. This would never happen to Contador. But sure, find excuses for Quintana's cowardice

Nah, Quintana lost that Tour because he was too aggressive on LPSM.

He attacked from over 50km to isolate the yellow and wound up taking over a minute and a half on him in the biggest race in the world. Can't recall the last time Contador pulled of a successful attack, from that far out, at the Tour. Care to refresh my memory?

2014 Tirreno. You could also say the 2015 Giro considering he had to go pretty much Solo up the Terminillo after starting over 1 minute back due to mechanical.

Read the bolded part.