But it happened before. AFIR Kurt Warner was getting a new 7-year 40 Mio contract after the 99 SB season, even tough still under a "cheap" contract...
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With sundays game, The Siz is down to No. 21 of 37 of true starters in his era.
If you look at the guys ranked lower than him, you don´t find a single 100 Mio $ baby, but the likes of Cassell, Orton or Carr...
Just wonder if Mr Agnostic, Coughlin and this journo still think they made the right choice to trade for him...
Alpe just for fun and to make the NYG fans mad, can´t you just start a campaign called "fire Eli"?
If you look at the guys ranked lower than him, you don´t find a single 100 Mio $ baby, but the likes of Cassell, Orton or Carr...
Just wonder if Mr Agnostic, Coughlin and this journo still think they made the right choice to trade for him...
Alpe just for fun and to make the NYG fans mad, can´t you just start a campaign called "fire Eli"?
Prater may have gotten the new record last week at altitude, but Justin Tucker yesterday was something else. 53 yard field goal in the 4th quarter to force Detroit to go for the td, and when they got it, a 61 yard field goal with 30s to go to win the game.
Not going to matter for them since they aren't going to beat the Bengals in Cincinnati (and Miami isn't going to lose to Buffalo or the Jets), but it puts Green Bay in a good position just as A Rod returns.
Not going to matter for them since they aren't going to beat the Bengals in Cincinnati (and Miami isn't going to lose to Buffalo or the Jets), but it puts Green Bay in a good position just as A Rod returns.
That is actually one of the better deals in sports. If I recall Paul Allen agreed to pay something like the first $60m, providing certain criteria were met (such as both Club and Charter seats), and the city found out a way to come up with the rest, most of which comes from hotel taxes. Some of that was also offset through sponsorship.on3m@n@rmy said:
Compare that to the Kingdome, which I'm pretty sure Seattle is still paying for, through about 2018. That's correct, I said the Kingdome.
The worst though is the Meadowlands. You can read up on that, and how a mishmash of New Jersey and New York are paying for both the current, and the old (demolished) Meadowlands still, and will be for many years.
MLB also pays zero taxes. It's just absurd, of course it is. But that's for another thread.
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
The apologists were out in force yesterday. Mike Francesca, a top radio guy in NY had his panties in a real wad arguing with people. "The problem isn't Eli. It's that the team has no TE, no running backs, and a poor OL. And Nicks gave up. So you can ignore the INT's. Just look back at those SB wins and SB mvps, and remember some of Eli's 4th Quarter comebacks. He has more than both Rodgers and Flacco, you know? So he's not the problem." All kinds of nonsense like that.
I'm wondering if he'll make the 30 club. There are only a handful of QB's in modern era who have tossed 30 int's in a season. He's 5 away, against two teams who are in the middle of the league in that stat (Det and Wash).
I think they could actually beat Cincy, if the Bengals play like the did on Sunday. But I don't see Miami losing to the Jets, and probably not Buffalo, though that is in Buffalo.The Hitch said:
I'd be careful referring to Aaron Rodgers as "A Rod", considering the extreme negative connotations with that nickname. Only one athlete in recent sports history is below Alex Rodriguez when it comes to moral bankruptcy and fraud (I'll let you guess who that might be).
Alpe d'Huez said:
I know Alex Rodriguez, but to us A Rod was also Andy Roddick, so it reaches the point where lik CJ and DW, anyone with A... Rod... can be A Rod.
In the Pacific NW, MLB's A-Rod is also known as A-Fraud, who (as a rookie MLB player) once aspired to be like Cal Ripken Jr. Epic Fail!
Well, as a Seattle Seahawk fan I'm laughing my a** off over a certain move afoot by San Fran fans. Some 9ers fans have raised money to purchase a billboard in Seattle to taunt Hawk fans. This is the image:
ESPN Link........ Link 2
There's one reason Century Link Seahawk crowds are arguably the loudest in the NFL... fans are hungrier. If Seattle gets the NFC HFA, the planned billboard will be like tossing gas on a fire should there be a SF/SEA rematch at Century Link Field. Light 'em up.
Well, as a Seattle Seahawk fan I'm laughing my a** off over a certain move afoot by San Fran fans. Some 9ers fans have raised money to purchase a billboard in Seattle to taunt Hawk fans. This is the image:
ESPN Link........ Link 2
There's one reason Century Link Seahawk crowds are arguably the loudest in the NFL... fans are hungrier. If Seattle gets the NFC HFA, the planned billboard will be like tossing gas on a fire should there be a SF/SEA rematch at Century Link Field. Light 'em up.
One of today's ESPN poll questions was:
"What should the Cowboys do with Tony Romo in the offseason?"
The voters choices were:
1) Trade/release Romo and start over at QB.
2) Keep Romo, but reduce his control over the offense.
3) Keep things as they are.
With over 108,000 votes cast at this point the responses were 45% for #1, 30% for #2, and 25% for #3. I voted #3, because I like the way they are going right now.
"What should the Cowboys do with Tony Romo in the offseason?"
The voters choices were:
1) Trade/release Romo and start over at QB.
2) Keep Romo, but reduce his control over the offense.
3) Keep things as they are.
With over 108,000 votes cast at this point the responses were 45% for #1, 30% for #2, and 25% for #3. I voted #3, because I like the way they are going right now.
Ian Rappaport of NFL Network reports Kyle Shanahan has decided to stop working with his father (LINK).
Finally, there was a nice segment (one NFL.com Link, this link is just a snippet of the half hour segment that aired, but other short videos on the NFL.com site that were part of the 1/2 hour show are available) on the NFL Network about former coach Marty Schottenheimer. It was as much about family and relationships (coach/player) as it was about football. Couple of interesting things:
1) Marty said by far his biggest coaching mistake of his career was resigning as HC of the KC Chiefs (under owner Lamar Hunt, and GM Carl Peterson). Once informed of his decision to resign, both Carl and Lamar suggested he take a few days to think about it, as they did not want him to resign.
2) Marty later coached the Chargers (including players Lorenzo Neal, Ladainian Tomlinson, Drew Brees), went 14-2 in 2006 but lost to the Patriots in the playoffs. So owner Spanos (Dean or Alex) fired him over "differences" (Marty liked / required control over his roster). Carl said that firing Marty was Spanos' biggest mistake. Neal, Tomlinson, and Brees all spoke well of Schotty, and Ladainian said he was furious when informed Marty was fired by Spanos. How often does a coach go something like 14-2 and get fired?
3) Some may know Marty later coached in the UFL for the Virginia Destroyers, but most probably don't know he paid some of his staff's salary out of his own pocket. Why coach in the UFL, Jen Brown (host of interview in NFL.com link above) asked? He just enjoyed helping players with a much better skill set than he every had of achieving their best, or becoming the best they can be, and because of that desire he could not stand being away from coaching. Getting them to see the Heart ("the most important part of the body between the backbone and the breast bone") of a player was/is a means of accomplishing their goals.
4) On the personal side, he was a great man and appreciated by many... family and players.
Finally, there was a nice segment (one NFL.com Link, this link is just a snippet of the half hour segment that aired, but other short videos on the NFL.com site that were part of the 1/2 hour show are available) on the NFL Network about former coach Marty Schottenheimer. It was as much about family and relationships (coach/player) as it was about football. Couple of interesting things:
1) Marty said by far his biggest coaching mistake of his career was resigning as HC of the KC Chiefs (under owner Lamar Hunt, and GM Carl Peterson). Once informed of his decision to resign, both Carl and Lamar suggested he take a few days to think about it, as they did not want him to resign.
2) Marty later coached the Chargers (including players Lorenzo Neal, Ladainian Tomlinson, Drew Brees), went 14-2 in 2006 but lost to the Patriots in the playoffs. So owner Spanos (Dean or Alex) fired him over "differences" (Marty liked / required control over his roster). Carl said that firing Marty was Spanos' biggest mistake. Neal, Tomlinson, and Brees all spoke well of Schotty, and Ladainian said he was furious when informed Marty was fired by Spanos. How often does a coach go something like 14-2 and get fired?
3) Some may know Marty later coached in the UFL for the Virginia Destroyers, but most probably don't know he paid some of his staff's salary out of his own pocket. Why coach in the UFL, Jen Brown (host of interview in NFL.com link above) asked? He just enjoyed helping players with a much better skill set than he every had of achieving their best, or becoming the best they can be, and because of that desire he could not stand being away from coaching. Getting them to see the Heart ("the most important part of the body between the backbone and the breast bone") of a player was/is a means of accomplishing their goals.
4) On the personal side, he was a great man and appreciated by many... family and players.
That billboard is beautiful! If I were a Seahawk fan, I would make a bunch of small paint concoctions to look like bird crap, and find a way to toss them on the billboard.
I can only hope we now get to see a Seahawk-49er grudge match. And with the way both teams are playing, it seems almost certain. Can't wait.
I'd vote for #3 on that list as well of what to do with Romo. At least for entertainment factor. Lots of talk that Jerry Jones needs to give up GM power, but that would be terrible too. The more control Jerry has, the more exciting the Cowboy drama is!
Not surprised Kyle Shanny is jumping off the train now before speed picks up too much with no brakes. He may just be saving his own skin. But recall a few days ago he was not on board with RG3 benching, and wanted instead to challenge the OL to step up, while giving RG3 the needed experience.
As far as Marty goes, remember who the Chargers hired to replace him? Norv Turner!!! People in SD were upset that the Chargers didn't win a playoff game under Marty and thought he was too old. Also, in that last playoff game in 2007 the Chargers went for it on 4th and 11 in the first half, and didn't make it. People were livid. But it was anything but his fault. The ball didn't bounce their way that game. A late turnover, and a late missed FG did them in. Should have won the SB that year though. They really should have.
I can only hope we now get to see a Seahawk-49er grudge match. And with the way both teams are playing, it seems almost certain. Can't wait.
I'd vote for #3 on that list as well of what to do with Romo. At least for entertainment factor. Lots of talk that Jerry Jones needs to give up GM power, but that would be terrible too. The more control Jerry has, the more exciting the Cowboy drama is!
Not surprised Kyle Shanny is jumping off the train now before speed picks up too much with no brakes. He may just be saving his own skin. But recall a few days ago he was not on board with RG3 benching, and wanted instead to challenge the OL to step up, while giving RG3 the needed experience.
As far as Marty goes, remember who the Chargers hired to replace him? Norv Turner!!! People in SD were upset that the Chargers didn't win a playoff game under Marty and thought he was too old. Also, in that last playoff game in 2007 the Chargers went for it on 4th and 11 in the first half, and didn't make it. People were livid. But it was anything but his fault. The ball didn't bounce their way that game. A late turnover, and a late missed FG did them in. Should have won the SB that year though. They really should have.
Here's the playoff picture, and what's left:
NFC
1. Seattle Seahawks (12-2). The Seahawks win 1 game and have HFA. They play Ari and StL, both at home.
2. New Orleans Saints (10-4). If they can't beat the Panthers on Sunday, in Carolina, they will drop to a wildcard and end up playing at the East or North division winner (Detroit, Philly Dallas, Chicago, GreenBay). Last game is TB at home.
3. Philadelphia Eagles (8-6). Two potentially tough games remain. Chicago at home, and at Dallas. If the Eagles can play some defense, they should be able to hold on against the Bears. They'll need Romo's help in that final game.
4. Chicago Bears (8-6). After Detroit's loss, they are in the driver's seat, with games at Philadelphia, and hosting Green Bay, and a healthy Aaron Rodgers. So, once again, how good is Jay Cutler?
5. Carolina Panthers (10-4). The Panthers have two winnable games left. Hosting the Saints, and at Atlanta. This is tougher than you may think though. The Saints have a lot of experience and will be very motivated. Also, the Falcons seem to be healing and coming together of late.
6. San Francisco 49ers (10-4). The most dangerous team here. Experienced, road tested, getting healthy, and playing great of late. They play Atlanta, and at Arizona, in a game that may mean playoff aspirations for the Cardinals.
Arizona Cardinals (9-5), Detroit Lions (7-7), Green Bay Packers (7-6-1). Dallas Cowboys (7-7). The Cardinals have to win maybe both games, with Seattle on the road, and SF at home in order to beat out the Panthers, Saints or 49ers for one of the wild cards. The Lions, Packers and Cowboys, must win their division, but it is possible.
AFC
1. Denver Broncos (11-3). Despite the ugly loss to San Diego, at home, the Broncos have two easy games left. At Houston, and at the Raiders. With this they'll have HFA, and wait to see who they play, and hope they get favorable weather in the mile high city. Defense still a big concern.
2. New England Patriots (10-4). Despite losing at the wrong time, they still remain the best shot for the #2 seed. A tough test this sunday at Baltimore will really show how good they are. After that, it's Buffalo at home. Lose one, and they're still in, but will look like a one and done team.
3. Cincinnati Bengals (9-5). After some solid play of late, they laid an egg in Pittsburgh. But their last two games are at home against Minnesota, and Baltimore. The Bengals are 6-0 at home this year, and would love to see Baltimore take out the Patriots, before finishing them off themselves. The Bengals look like a team built to make a run, but will they?
4. Indianapolis Colts (9-5). Despite winning the division, and a great win streak early in the year (wins over Sea, SF and Den). Win or lose, they look stuck in the #4 seed, unless the Bengals and Patriots tank. A tough game at KC, then hosting Jacksonville remain.
5. Kansas City Chiefs (11-3). I'm finding pundits that like them heading into the playoffs. Lesser known players who have been hurt are about to come back, and while their defense has slipped some, the offense looked explosive on Sunday, with a great short game that looks good for January football. They host Indy, then on the road against San Diego.
6. Baltimore Ravens (8-6). If it weren't for a kicker... The Ravens are surging and look dangerous. A short week ahead they play New England tomorrow, then head to Cincinnati for the season finale. Two tough games that the other team is going to need to win. They hold a tiebreaker over Miami.
Just behind them are the Miami Dolphins (8-6) who have left the whole Incognito/Martin mess in the rear view mirror and are on a streak. A tough game in Buffalo, followed by a home game against the Jets. San Diego (7-7) also looks good. But they really look more like a team built for 2014, don't they?
NFC
1. Seattle Seahawks (12-2). The Seahawks win 1 game and have HFA. They play Ari and StL, both at home.
2. New Orleans Saints (10-4). If they can't beat the Panthers on Sunday, in Carolina, they will drop to a wildcard and end up playing at the East or North division winner (Detroit, Philly Dallas, Chicago, GreenBay). Last game is TB at home.
3. Philadelphia Eagles (8-6). Two potentially tough games remain. Chicago at home, and at Dallas. If the Eagles can play some defense, they should be able to hold on against the Bears. They'll need Romo's help in that final game.
4. Chicago Bears (8-6). After Detroit's loss, they are in the driver's seat, with games at Philadelphia, and hosting Green Bay, and a healthy Aaron Rodgers. So, once again, how good is Jay Cutler?
5. Carolina Panthers (10-4). The Panthers have two winnable games left. Hosting the Saints, and at Atlanta. This is tougher than you may think though. The Saints have a lot of experience and will be very motivated. Also, the Falcons seem to be healing and coming together of late.
6. San Francisco 49ers (10-4). The most dangerous team here. Experienced, road tested, getting healthy, and playing great of late. They play Atlanta, and at Arizona, in a game that may mean playoff aspirations for the Cardinals.
Arizona Cardinals (9-5), Detroit Lions (7-7), Green Bay Packers (7-6-1). Dallas Cowboys (7-7). The Cardinals have to win maybe both games, with Seattle on the road, and SF at home in order to beat out the Panthers, Saints or 49ers for one of the wild cards. The Lions, Packers and Cowboys, must win their division, but it is possible.
AFC
1. Denver Broncos (11-3). Despite the ugly loss to San Diego, at home, the Broncos have two easy games left. At Houston, and at the Raiders. With this they'll have HFA, and wait to see who they play, and hope they get favorable weather in the mile high city. Defense still a big concern.
2. New England Patriots (10-4). Despite losing at the wrong time, they still remain the best shot for the #2 seed. A tough test this sunday at Baltimore will really show how good they are. After that, it's Buffalo at home. Lose one, and they're still in, but will look like a one and done team.
3. Cincinnati Bengals (9-5). After some solid play of late, they laid an egg in Pittsburgh. But their last two games are at home against Minnesota, and Baltimore. The Bengals are 6-0 at home this year, and would love to see Baltimore take out the Patriots, before finishing them off themselves. The Bengals look like a team built to make a run, but will they?
4. Indianapolis Colts (9-5). Despite winning the division, and a great win streak early in the year (wins over Sea, SF and Den). Win or lose, they look stuck in the #4 seed, unless the Bengals and Patriots tank. A tough game at KC, then hosting Jacksonville remain.
5. Kansas City Chiefs (11-3). I'm finding pundits that like them heading into the playoffs. Lesser known players who have been hurt are about to come back, and while their defense has slipped some, the offense looked explosive on Sunday, with a great short game that looks good for January football. They host Indy, then on the road against San Diego.
6. Baltimore Ravens (8-6). If it weren't for a kicker... The Ravens are surging and look dangerous. A short week ahead they play New England tomorrow, then head to Cincinnati for the season finale. Two tough games that the other team is going to need to win. They hold a tiebreaker over Miami.
Just behind them are the Miami Dolphins (8-6) who have left the whole Incognito/Martin mess in the rear view mirror and are on a streak. A tough game in Buffalo, followed by a home game against the Jets. San Diego (7-7) also looks good. But they really look more like a team built for 2014, don't they?
The Hitch said:
As you are on the other side of the Pond, you are forgiven
. On this side of the Pond, there is only one A-Rod, a name that is like a lightning rod for disrespect. Better to call Aaron Rodgers the "discount daaaaable check guy" (I know, bad joke).Alpe d'Huez said:
I'll have to suggest that. Maybe they can display the tarnished image on the big screens at CenturyLink Field on that day. That would get a pile of laughs. You can have the credits.
Alpe d'Huez said:
That's the matchup I'm hoping for.
Alpe d'Huez said:
At least young Shanny has some sense. This is what I was saying here some posts ago.
Alpe d'Huez said:
Yeah. The thing I wonder is was it Marty's preference for a certain QB (e.g. Brees) and some conflict with the uppers over drafting Rivers, plus Marty's desire to control the roster that resulted not only in the firing of Marty, but also Brees leaving for the Saints. I'm curious.
Alpe d'Huez said:
Unless Carolina loses its last game and NO wins. Then Saints take division on tie-breaker.
if Dallas wins this week, then winner of Philly-Dallas takes division. It won't matter what Philly does against the Bears. The Dallas game starts earlier than the Philly game, and some writers speculate that if Dallas wins, the Eagles will rest their starters, which would be great news for the Bears. But if GB wins this week, and Det loses, the division will be determined by GB-Chicago, so it won't matter if the Bears win this week, either.
lol, what if neither team cares if it wins? Very interesting game!
How good is McCown? Four PA short of qualifying for QB rating, and just behind Foles and Manning.
Falcons could be huge spoilers. If they upset the 49ers, and Cards manage to beat SE, AZ could steal the WC from SF by beating them. And even if Carolina beats NO, if they lose to Atl and Saints win final game, Saints take division. Even worse for Carolina, if AZ won its last two games, the Panthers would not even make WC.
If 49ers win their last two games, they get 5th seed. Is that a good thing? Might have to play at GB with Rodgers back. Followed by at SE and maybe at NO. Is that the toughest postseason schedule in history, or what?
Even if they manage to steal the division from SE, possible but unlikely, they would not get HFA unless winner of NO/Carolina loses its last game. Could end up with SE at home, NO on the road. Not exactly a piece of cake, either.
Very tough road for AZ to make playoffs. Even if they beat SE in SE and then beat SF at home, still need: 1) SF loses to Atl OR 2) NO beats Carolina; OR 3) Carolina beats NO AND one of those teams loses its last game. Or AZ could lose one of its last two games and make it if Carolina loses both of its last two games.
Interesting that before the season started, most pundits had the top four teams (in various orders) as SF, SE, DE, NE. They are arguably all in that position now, though because SF and SE are the same division, SF is in the bad position of likely WC. Carolina is the biggest surprise.
on3m@n@rmy said:But about west coast teams traveling east, my understanding is not so much the lack of practice, but more that a 10:00 am game on the east coast is like a 7:00 am game to the body of a player on a west coast team. It's just hard to get the body up for what feels like a 7 am game. Some coaches will get the players up extra early to get those bodies moving and get the blood flowing so they are actually awake
They start games at 10 AM on the east coast? Really?
Damn! I got up at 7 AM on the west coast Sunday morning, but couldn't find any games in progress. Maybe next week? I'm sure the NFl would bank heavily on its west coast audience getting up at 7 AM Sunday morning to watch games.
Three of the four WCs are virtually certain to have records better than the division winners they play. We have discussed this before. Three years ago, 12-4 NO visited 7-9 Seattle, and lost. The next year, 12-4 Pitt went to 8-8 Denver, and lost. I really think the team with the better record should get the HFA. Actually, I'd like to see seeding based on record, as in the NBA, but doubt that will ever happen. Then KC and SF--definitely top 4 teams in their conference--would not only be playing a game at home, but in strong contention for a first round bye.
As it stands now, if you're in a tough division, you're really handicapped. Not only can you not play at home if you don't win the division, but you have tougher competition just to get that next-best record. The NFC West is probably the best division now, 28-10 vs. teams outside the division (that's equivalent to winning nearly 12 games in a 16 game schedule). AZ, the third place team, is 9-5, a record that would lead the N and E divisions. Even more, they are 8-2 outside the division, suggesting that they would be 10-4 or even 11-3 in another division. But they have to play SE and SF twice, and have already lost to each once so far. Even the last place Rams are 5-4 outside the division. They would probably be solid contenders in the N and E.
Of course, divisions can change very quickly. Three years ago, the NFC West was a joke, the worst division. The AFC N was one of the best, now it's fairly weak. But to me, that's a strong argument for basing seeding or at least HFA on record. Year to year, you never know which teams will get a big break by playing in a weak division. Divisions are fixed by geography, more or less, so it's certain that over time, there will major divisions in the quality of opposition. You can't do anything about that, but if a team manages to overcome that opposition and make the WC, it shouldn't be further penalized by playing on the road vs. a team with a lesser record.
Merckx index said:
My bad on the explanation. What I meant was a 1:00 pm game feels like a 10:00 am game to some players from west coast teams. So if the game feels like it's at 10:00 am, getting out of bed would feel like 7:00 am. But you knew that, right?
Merckx index said:
ATL could but their 29th ranked overall total defense (and in that same general rank in pass D, run D, and PPG allowed) won't win @ SF. If they did it would be a huge upset. Much more likely for AZ to win @ SEA, or STL to win @ SEA the following week.
Surprise, surprise:
All home teams pick except DEN...
Does someone keep record of how I fare against ya all since taking this approach?
All home teams pick except DEN...
Does someone keep record of how I fare against ya all since taking this approach?
Interesting numbers for the Packers:
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=178245
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8154321/green-bay-packers-owned-public-announce-record-profits
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9483276/green-bay-packers-enjoyed-record-revenue-profits-2012-13
I think it´s a good way to run capitalism. Bad for the shareholders not to gain anything, but good that the money is re-invested, saved for worse times, or goes to a charitable foundation. At least no single owner takes it all for his manisons, cars & women, and thus taxpayers don´t have to pay for new stadiums and champagne seats.
Funny thing is, net profits are between 5 Mio and 55 Mio. So I assume an average of 30 Mio over the long run. That´s not even 3 times as big as busts like The Siz or Bradford get shoved up their a§§es per year. Always said (since free agency) players are overpaid...
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=178245
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8154321/green-bay-packers-owned-public-announce-record-profits
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9483276/green-bay-packers-enjoyed-record-revenue-profits-2012-13
I think it´s a good way to run capitalism. Bad for the shareholders not to gain anything, but good that the money is re-invested, saved for worse times, or goes to a charitable foundation. At least no single owner takes it all for his manisons, cars & women, and thus taxpayers don´t have to pay for new stadiums and champagne seats.
Funny thing is, net profits are between 5 Mio and 55 Mio. So I assume an average of 30 Mio over the long run. That´s not even 3 times as big as busts like The Siz or Bradford get shoved up their a§§es per year. Always said (since free agency) players are overpaid...
FoxxyBrown1111 said:Surprise, surprise:
All home teams pick except DEN...
Does someone keep record of how I fare against ya all since taking this approach?
NO. But I should be.
Merry Christmas all, in case I don't get back on here before then.
A Rod () probably won't play afterall. Every week same story.
If they win he might be a bit rusty for the division shootout in Chicago.
) probably won't play afterall. Every week same story. If they win he might be a bit rusty for the division shootout in Chicago.
While I think Atlanta still has some bullets left in the gun, they are so depleted, it would indeed be a huge upset to beat SF. Same with either Arizona or StL going into Seattle. The only way those teams beat the Seahawks is if Seattle rests everyone in those games. Even then...
Foxxy will like this one. Rod Woodson was on Fox Sports radio talking about QBs. He was saying it's the only position that has W-L tied to it. QBs get too much credit, and too much blame. Winning SB's is great, but it's a team win. Said the best QB he played against, and he played against he estimates 15 past and future hall of famers, was, drum roll please....
Dan Marino. Perfect passes, perfect timing. You couldn't leave a receiver open for one step or Marino would find them and hit them. He and host Steve Hartman shared a story about how Raiders CB great Lester Hayes felt the same way. Hayes felt no QB could be as dangerous throwing everywhere on the field as Dan Fouts, until Marino came along. No pass Dan couldn't throw with perfection.
Woodson also said, without hesitation, the best current QB in the NFL is Tom Brady.
Foxxy will like this one. Rod Woodson was on Fox Sports radio talking about QBs. He was saying it's the only position that has W-L tied to it. QBs get too much credit, and too much blame. Winning SB's is great, but it's a team win. Said the best QB he played against, and he played against he estimates 15 past and future hall of famers, was, drum roll please....
Dan Marino. Perfect passes, perfect timing. You couldn't leave a receiver open for one step or Marino would find them and hit them. He and host Steve Hartman shared a story about how Raiders CB great Lester Hayes felt the same way. Hayes felt no QB could be as dangerous throwing everywhere on the field as Dan Fouts, until Marino came along. No pass Dan couldn't throw with perfection.
Woodson also said, without hesitation, the best current QB in the NFL is Tom Brady.
A DB who played the game I trust (other than journos).
I have/had Marino No. 1 all time in my Top-5 QB list, and Fouts inside Top-5 IIRC. Problem is, I can´t find the post. Is it deleted Alpe? If so, why?
I have/had Marino No. 1 all time in my Top-5 QB list, and Fouts inside Top-5 IIRC. Problem is, I can´t find the post. Is it deleted Alpe? If so, why?
Marino (his teams went 8-10 with him as starter, no SB wins) vs PM (9-11) in the playoffs:
While both QBs underperformed in the playoffs, some might ask why I rate Marino that high (my all time No. 1), while calling PM a playoffs choker (who didn´t even make my Top-5).
Other than trusting my eyes, I did a little stats today, to see if my eyes are right (which more often than not saw PM nervously throwing wobbling balls off target when it was crunch time). To back up my claims, here are some numbers;
Marinos teams were favoured 9 times and underdogs 9 times. So we would expect his teams to win 50% of playoff games. But that would be a little bit too easy. So i took the Vegas lines in my calculations. Example; If a team is 7 point favourite, Vegas expects them to win 73% of time. Thus i count 0.73 expected wins (EW) in that case.
Example lines for the Dolphins 1984 playoff season with Marino as starting QB:
vs SEA 5.5 favourite (= 68% Vegas win expectation = 0.68 EW)
vs PIT 9.5 favourite (= 0.8 EW)
vs SF 3.5 underdog (= 0.39 EW)
That is 1.87 expected wins, actually MIA won twice.
For all playoff games Marino started, the EW were 9.02. His teams actually won 8 times, thus 1.02 less than expected.
When we look at games only played until his injury (whereafter he wasn´t the same), the EW were 5.97, his teams won 5 games.
After his injury the EW were 3.05, his teams won 3 games.
After all, Marino-led-teams were better in EW when Marino was no more as good as in the 80s. Either Marino "choked" one game above average (thus being 1 game below EW until the injury) in his heydays, or it´s just small sample size/unlucky splits. I assume the latter.....
While both QBs underperformed in the playoffs, some might ask why I rate Marino that high (my all time No. 1), while calling PM a playoffs choker (who didn´t even make my Top-5).
Other than trusting my eyes, I did a little stats today, to see if my eyes are right (which more often than not saw PM nervously throwing wobbling balls off target when it was crunch time). To back up my claims, here are some numbers;
Marinos teams were favoured 9 times and underdogs 9 times. So we would expect his teams to win 50% of playoff games. But that would be a little bit too easy. So i took the Vegas lines in my calculations. Example; If a team is 7 point favourite, Vegas expects them to win 73% of time. Thus i count 0.73 expected wins (EW) in that case.
Example lines for the Dolphins 1984 playoff season with Marino as starting QB:
vs SEA 5.5 favourite (= 68% Vegas win expectation = 0.68 EW)
vs PIT 9.5 favourite (= 0.8 EW)
vs SF 3.5 underdog (= 0.39 EW)
That is 1.87 expected wins, actually MIA won twice.
For all playoff games Marino started, the EW were 9.02. His teams actually won 8 times, thus 1.02 less than expected.
When we look at games only played until his injury (whereafter he wasn´t the same), the EW were 5.97, his teams won 5 games.
After his injury the EW were 3.05, his teams won 3 games.
After all, Marino-led-teams were better in EW when Marino was no more as good as in the 80s. Either Marino "choked" one game above average (thus being 1 game below EW until the injury) in his heydays, or it´s just small sample size/unlucky splits. I assume the latter.....
But how many SB rings Marino should have?
1984 the chance was 0.68 x 0.8 x 0.39 = 0.21 = (21 percent chance)
1983 was 0.76 (8 pt favo vs SEA, but lost) x 0.66* x 0.5* = 0.25
1985 was 0.82 x 0.68 x 0.34* = 0.19
1990 was 0.57 x 0.27 x 0.5* x 0.5* = 0.04
1992 was 0.55 x 0.45 x 0.34* = 0.08
1994 was 0.59 x 0.41 x 0.5* x 0.34* = 0.04
1995 was 0.39 x 0.34* x 0.5* x 0.34* = 0.02
1997 was 0.33 x 0.34* x 0.34* x 0.34* = 0.01
1998 was 0.57 x 0.13 x x 0.34* x 0.34* = 0.01
1999 was 0.39 x 0.24 x x 0.34* x 0.34* = 0.01
* Because we don´t know how the line would be in games Marinos teams didn´t play (after they lost the previous playoff game), I made an educated guess if they would have been favourites, even, or underdogs. For MIA being favourites in the following (but non-played) games I estimated a 66% winning chance (from 1978 up today the favourites actually won 66 percent of the 8.000+ games), for even games 50%, and as would be underdogs thus 34%.
After adding up all numbers, Marinos teams should have won 0.86 superbowls. Since that is impossible, I can savely say the Dolphins should have won max 1 superbowl (but not necessarily in the 1984/85 season) with him, because it´s obvious the talent around him wasn´t good enough for more, especially in the 90s.
A whole different story it is with Peyton Manning...
1984 the chance was 0.68 x 0.8 x 0.39 = 0.21 = (21 percent chance)
1983 was 0.76 (8 pt favo vs SEA, but lost) x 0.66* x 0.5* = 0.25
1985 was 0.82 x 0.68 x 0.34* = 0.19
1990 was 0.57 x 0.27 x 0.5* x 0.5* = 0.04
1992 was 0.55 x 0.45 x 0.34* = 0.08
1994 was 0.59 x 0.41 x 0.5* x 0.34* = 0.04
1995 was 0.39 x 0.34* x 0.5* x 0.34* = 0.02
1997 was 0.33 x 0.34* x 0.34* x 0.34* = 0.01
1998 was 0.57 x 0.13 x x 0.34* x 0.34* = 0.01
1999 was 0.39 x 0.24 x x 0.34* x 0.34* = 0.01
* Because we don´t know how the line would be in games Marinos teams didn´t play (after they lost the previous playoff game), I made an educated guess if they would have been favourites, even, or underdogs. For MIA being favourites in the following (but non-played) games I estimated a 66% winning chance (from 1978 up today the favourites actually won 66 percent of the 8.000+ games), for even games 50%, and as would be underdogs thus 34%.
After adding up all numbers, Marinos teams should have won 0.86 superbowls. Since that is impossible, I can savely say the Dolphins should have won max 1 superbowl (but not necessarily in the 1984/85 season) with him, because it´s obvious the talent around him wasn´t good enough for more, especially in the 90s.
A whole different story it is with Peyton Manning...
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Truth be told, Marino did play on many average teams. Can you remember any receivers he had to throw to? Clayton and Duper are the two that come to mind. But neither were very big. Who were his TE's he threw to? Can you name one? How about their running game? Do you recall anything special or can you name anyone great on their defenses at the time? He had a great coach (two, really), but even Don Shula rejected the praise heaped on him, saying he was only as good as his players.
As to his playoff runs, Marino had two bad playoff games, and several excellent ones he just couldn't win (that I recall, had to look these up). After the 1984 Superbowl, he had a stellar 1985 season, including beating the Bears (best D ever), but the Dolphins had a nightmare AFC championship game, turning the ball over 6 times that resulted in 24 points. Marino threw one pick into the endzone, and another hail mary at game's end. But otherwise had a very good day.
The Dolphins didn't make the playoffs the next few years. But in 1990-1991 played Buffalo in freezing temps and lost a close game. Another fumble hurt Miami, and Marino had another very good game, but the defense gave up 44 points.
If you want to point a finger, the 1993 AFC championship was I'm sure a playoff game Marino would like to forget. The had HFA and lost 29-10 in Miami. Dan threw two picks and lost a fumble on a sack. The Dolphins had a good defense that year, and a good offense, but overall as a team lost that game, one they maybe should have won. They also would have given the Cowboys a much better Superbowl than the Bills did.
In the 1995 playoffs Marino had a great game at San Diego. But the SD offense simply ran through them in the 2nd half, and ate up the clock on long drives against the Dolphins defense to close the game out. Miami still had a chance to win, with Marino driving them some 40 yards in 30 seconds, but the Fins missed a FG that would have won it. After this week the Chargers took on the heavily favored Steelers in Pittsburgh in a wet, nasty game, and beat them to go onto the Superbowl where they would lose to SF. When I was working with Brock he said this stretch run, culminating with the win over the Steelers was the toughest game in his career. It left the team drained. They would have probably lost to SF anyway, but...
By 1997 and 1998 Marino was about done, but the Dolphins did make the playoffs as a WC and Dan had another game in 1997 he'd like to forget, against a superior Patriots team who had twice beaten them in the regular season. In 1998 he played very well, against a Bronco team who outgained them 250-14 on the ground. Even aging he played very well, but with no defense, Marino didn't have a chance.
in 2000 in Marino's last year he had a good playoff win over Seattle, followed by a blowout loss to Jacksonville who ran through the Dolphins defense.
No SB rings? So what. He had a great coach, but was mostly on average teams. Often teams with poor defenses. Imagine if he had been the Steeler QB during that time instead of Neil O'Donnall. Or the Patriot QB instead of Tony Easison, or even if he had been on the Cowboy, 49er, or even Bills or Giant teams during that time. He'd have his share for certain.
Alpe d'Huez said:
Very good post. I´ll come back to it later. Just busy with the chokers stats now.
But have to say this now: Other than the really good Marks Bros, there were "greats" like OJ McDuffie he had to throw to. Says it all I guess.
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