New Lance positives in 2004 and 2005

[Moose McKnuckles]

Chapeau to Frankie, indeed.

Betsy stood by her man in the face of an onslaught from Armstrong and his band of lemmings.

Chapeau to her as well.

 

[Racelap]

So I guess that's over 500 out of 502!

Seriously, Lance needs to just admit it already. His continuing this sham accomplishes nothing.

 

[JRTinMA]

Chapeau to Frankie, indeed.

Betsy stood by her man in the face of an onslaught from Armstrong and his band of lemmings.

Chapeau to her as well.

EDIT: Moose this isn't so much directed at your comment, it a clinic thing not you.

This I will never understand. Celebrating Betsy is great, she never gave up the fight and certainly suffered from the relentless attacks from Armstrong.

I will never understand however how you jump to the defense of Frankie, he doped and cheated and said he didn't have a problem with it. He cheated a clean rider out of a chance to live their dream. I understand he was not a fraud to the extent Armstrong was and didn't get rich off the backs off cancer patients, but he still cheated. Vaughters and Riis built successful cycling teams that all started with doping and cheating, if they they didn't cheat back then they probably would not have what they have today, cycling is built on a lie and until the cheaters are all purged from the sport the doping will continue. Its how they know how to win and succeed, its what they did after all to make it big. I will never understand the appropriate fervor to take down lance and the lackluster desire to clean up the sport in the clinic.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I suppose the UCI didn't just tell them "Sorry Tygart, we destroyed the samples".
Is there perhaps a leak within the UCI? Otherwise how does USADA know?

This might get tricky because it depends on the authority that did the testing for the TdF depending on the year. If it was WADA-based testing, samples are held for 8 years. There's the rare case where the sample does not survive storage, but there should be plenty of material to test.

This situation is *exactly* why I'm such a strong advocate for back-dated testing. The modern tests catch the dirty cheats.

 

[Adamastor]

France2 Report

Finally finished watching Stade2 report.

The report as such is damning, but no proofs stated (only opinions collected).

- Positive samples by USADA (not confirmed)
- 20 mins delays stated by AFLD Rieu (no proof)
- Betsy's comments on FDA work mysteriously stopped (no proof)
- 2005 Pau episode, with French police stopped of searching Discovery hotel (testimony by French lawyer linked to SCA affair, I guess - not showing evidence)
- UCI refused to comment

In the end, this report is very very bad! No bloody evidence, only warmed up soup...

After the report, the reporter Nicolas Geais was asked his true opinion on what UCI will do. His answer:
"I don't think UCI will strip him off his 7 Tours. In order to stay in line with USADA's request, they will look for their options. One could be to limit the sanctions to the last 8 years, hence only strip him off 2005 Tour de France, or to go to CAS, then this case will be prolonged by months, maybe years, in Contador style.

USADA will give its report to UCI in the 2 next weeks, then UCI will have 21 days to make a decision."

 

[DirtyWorks]

EDIT: Moose this isn't so much directed at your comment, it a clinic thing not you.

This I will never understand. Celebrating Betsy is great, she never gave up the fight and certainly suffered from the relentless attacks from Armstrong.

I will never understand however how you jump to the defense of Frankie, he doped and cheated and said he didn't have a problem with it. ..... I will never understand the appropriate fervor to take down lance and the lackluster desire to clean up the sport in the clinic.

+1 to this. I don't get how some give JV a pass either.

 

[tofino]

More comments

@Adamastor-the 20 minute tester delay is documented. Cyclingnews even reported about it when it happened. Brunyeel said they had to check out the guy out and Lance went and had a shower after his training ride.

If you've ever been tested you know this is totally corrupt and the guy was bullied. Once your number is called or they show up your tester is supposed to be your shadow.

Betsy says the Fed investigation ended because Lance's lawyer were connected.

My French ain't great but I didn't hear anything with the words 2004 or 2005. They said USADA had tests that show doping but they could be referencing the comeback blood work. Listen at 3:40 in the youtube video.

 

[Microchip]

It's because it was reported that they "finally" tested positive..

he was mocking

I thought so too. I just read the article and the phrase is now "ultimately came back positive."

 

[mewmewmew13]

"Finally" sounds like they tested and re-tested and re-tested until the got the result they wanted. "Ultimately" sounds like in the end, after testing, they were positive.

Yes. Semantics says it all...

 

[babastooey]

It's 2005 after the stage Vaughters refers to in his IM. The stage where Vino attacked and Disco were dropped bar Lance. First mountain stage after rest day Vino/Ullrich et al were dropped hard. Popo & Il Falco did crazy work to kill the field. Piti won the stage.

I was watching that stage on DVD recently. It is amazing the riders who were at or near the front of that stage. I didn't really think about it then, but with hindsight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1_c8WHOnsY

Cormet de Roseland - Courchevel
20km to go
Truckload of Discovery guys on the front, including Hincapie, who wasn't dropped out on the first climb of the day
Salvodelli hammers - Menchov dropped first, then Zubeldia, then Heras
Only Pereiro and Jaksche left up front from the breakaways
More dropped - Guerini, Moreau, Karpets
Hincapie to the front - Botero dropped, then Horner
It is a small group now --

Salvodelli, Hincapie, Popovych, Armstrong (Disco)
Ullrich and Vinokourov (T-Mo)
Leipheimer (Gerolsteiner)
Basso (CSC)
A Credit Agricole rider who I guess was the real winner of the 2005 Tour
Rasmussen (Polka dots - Rabobank)
Mancebo and Valverde (Caisse)
Landis (Phonak)
Evans (Lotto)
Mazzoleni (Lampre)
Contador (Liberty Seguros)
Kloden (T-Mo)
And a Saunier Duval rider, not sure who it was, but you know that guy was loaded.

Sastre dropped - although he tried to attack the group just a bit earlier
Looks like the Saunier rider is Piepoli
12km to the top of Courchevel - George pulls off
Vino dangles off the back, Pereiro is caught and shoots straight out the back
Salvodelli pulls off, Popo comes to the front and accelerates
That acceleration splits the small group - Lance, Basso, Valverde, Mancebo, Evans, and Rasmussen drop the rest
Jaksche is only 20 seconds ahead now
Mancebo comes to the front and works for Valverde, Jaksche is caught

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWFjSdPX_-Y

There is part 2 but you know what happens next.

So I did decide to look up who that Credit Agricole rider was. It was Andre Kashechkin. So I take back that part about how he must have been the real winner of 2005.

Think about what most of those guys have in common and then think about Cadel Evans. I wonder if Australia's branch of WADA has any free time.

 

[python]

I will never understand however how you jump to the defense of Frankie, he doped

please take your baseness with betsy and her husband to the appropriate thread. thank you.

I understand he was not a fraud to the extent Armstrong was

i understand you promised to gloat if armstrong's federal investigation stops (the post is still there), so please once again, I respectfully ask you to take your issues with the matter to the appropriate thread.

i am interested in armstrong's positive tests that might have come to light not your off-topic grudges.

thank you.

 

[dolophonic]

EDIT: Moose this isn't so much directed at your comment, it a clinic thing not you.

This I will never understand. Celebrating Betsy is great, she never gave up the fight and certainly suffered from the relentless attacks from Armstrong.

I will never understand however how you jump to the defense of Frankie, he doped and cheated and said he didn't have a problem with it. He cheated a clean rider out of a chance to live their dream. I understand he was not a fraud to the extent Armstrong was and didn't get rich off the backs off cancer patients, but he still cheated. Vaughters and Riis built successful cycling teams that all started with doping and cheating, if they they didn't cheat back then they probably would not have what they have today, cycling is built on a lie and until the cheaters are all purged from the sport the doping will continue. Its how they know how to win and succeed, its what they did after all to make it big. I will never understand the appropriate fervor to take down lance and the lackluster desire to clean up the sport in the clinic.

Good points.. i get what you are saying.

 

[python]

@Adamastor-the 20 minute tester delay is documented. Cyclingnews even reported about it when it happened. Brunyeel said they had to check out the guy out and Lance went and had a shower after his training ride.

If you've ever been tested you know this is totally corrupt and the guy was bullied. Once your number is called or they show up your tester is supposed to be your shadow.

Betsy says the Fed investigation ended because Lance's lawyer were connected.

My French ain't great but I didn't hear anything with the words 2004 or 2005. They said USADA had tests that show doping but they could be referencing the comeback blood work. Listen at 3:40 in the youtube video.

i concur with your french

the video clip was basically a summary of the telle programme to-date.

as i noticed earlier, and this is just an educated guess no more, if the usada has another positive test(s) under the sleeve, it is likely related to the epo positives discovered by l'equipe...

it was well documented that some of the urine from the lndd testing was preserved and that afld offered armstrong to retest it on his conditions (the choice of a lab, time and so on) he refused the fair offer

we also know from multiple well documented reports that novi and usada were after those 1999 tests and samples and that they aske afld to cooperate...

the long story short, i speculate, the usada has retested one of the 1999 urine samples armstrong refused to test at the american wada lab (ucla) using the up-to-date methodology.

iow, the uci white-washing vrijman report was thus rendered pointless..

 

[sittingbison]

Just had a quick look at the Classement Final of the 2005 Tour, who gets the race ? Classement final : 1 Armstrong, 2 Basso, 3 Ullrich, 4 Mancebo, 5 Vinokourov, 6 Leipheimer, 7 Rasmussen, 8 Evans, 9 Landis, 10 Pereiro Sio.

...Think about what most of those guys have in common and then think about Cadel Evans. I wonder if Australia's branch of WADA has any free time.

I said it in the Sky thread, I said it in the Froome thread, all at risk of being accused of nationalism bla bla bla. I say it again here.

Cadel Evans is not associated with any drug scandal other than speculation. He visited Ferrari once with his manager (Rominger sigh) in 2001 when he transitioned from MTB to Road. Never denied it. He took up with Sassi instead. The "evidence" used against him is his "choice" of teams. Which is just as useful as the Greg LeMonds and PDM - which is NOTHING. See examples of LeMond PDM, Bassons Festina, Moncoutie Cofidis. Some posters likening Evans to doping because of teams lauds those three as shining examples of virtue. Truly idiotic.

Babastooey, what does Evans have in common with that lot? NOTHING! Because they are all PROVEN dopers and he is nothing of the kind. And he came EIGHTH FFS.

Evans record in every aspect indicates as clearly as we can GUESS that he is clean. Steady improvement overall then sliding slowly with age. Occasional blips of bad form. Off days really struggling. The lot. And all those idiotic comments for years about him wheel sucking, never attacking, cautious, struggling, not accelerating. What would any of YOU do when riding against that lot? Exactly what he did. That is what it looks like for a clean bloke trying to keep up with dopers.

If you want to discuss Evans AGAIN, fine. In an Evans thread. And try to come up with something useful to discuss.

It does the clinic NO CREDIT to make these glib associations, especially in a thread about the biggest fraud ever in sports history. Frakking disgraceful.

 

[DomesticDomestique]

Tim Herman told them (No Joke)

What exactly do you mean by this. Herman told who of what?

 

[thehog]

“We can reveal that Tygart has in his possession reanalysed samples which are finally positive,” said France 2 reporter Nicolas Geay, who travelled to the United States and Canada last week in the making of the programme.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...rong-retests-also-that-ex-wife-testified.aspx

 

[luckyboy]

What exactly do you mean by this. Herman told who of what?

From the post RR quoted, it seems he is saying that Herman told Tygart/USADA that the UCI destroyed Lance's samples.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I will never understand the appropriate fervor to take down lance and the lackluster desire to clean up the sport in the clinic.

I think the reason why you don't understand is that you don't pay attention.

I was giving Frankie a "chapeau" because he did well in the wife department. He picked someone who stood by him. I'm not sure how you interpreted this as though I'm ready to canonize the guy.

All these guys cheated. All of them. I'm not saying they're saints at all. My hope is that their recently-discovered honesty will pay dividends in cleaning up the sport.

 

[MarkvW]

To keep everyone warm & fuzzy the UCI sent all major cycling news outlets a memo that if they suggest The UCI covered up results they will sue.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[VeloGirl]

I will never understand the appropriate fervor to take down lance and the lackluster desire to clean up the sport in the clinic.

For me, personally, the difference is that Armstrong bullied and intimidated other riders, journalists, anyone who spoke out against him or doping - or even raised the question.

I never liked Landis until he came clean - crazy, I know. I don't have him up on a dias or anything, but I empathize with having to make "the choice". He chose wrong, but he had to choose.

The way Armstrong/Bruyneel treated Contador - another doper - during the '09 Tour was appalling. The way Armstrong/Bruyneel turned all the Postal/Disco fans against Contador - disgusting.

That's the difference for me.

 

[JRTinMA]

I think the reason why you don't understand is that you don't pay attention.

I was giving Frankie a "chapeau" because he did well in the wife department. He picked someone who stood by him. I'm not sure how you interpreted this as though I'm ready to canonize the guy.

All these guys cheated. All of them. I'm not saying they're saints at all. My hope is that their recently-discovered honesty will pay dividends in cleaning up the sport.

I guess you missed the giant EDIT where I said it was not based on your comment.

 

[JA.Tri]

For me, personally, the difference is that Armstrong bullied and intimidated other riders, journalists, anyone who spoke out against him or doping - or even raised the question.

I never liked Landis until he came clean - crazy, I know. I don't have him up on a dias or anything, but I empathize with having to make "the choice". He chose wrong, but he had to choose.

The way Armstrong/Bruyneel treated Contador - another doper - during the '09 Tour was appalling. The way Armstrong/Bruyneel turned all the Postal/Disco fans against Contador - disgusting.

That's the difference for me.

Concur (for these and BULK more reasons!)!

 

[mewmewmew13]

For me, personally, the difference is that Armstrong bullied and intimidated other riders, journalists, anyone who spoke out against him or doping - or even raised the question.

I never liked Landis until he came clean - crazy, I know. I don't have him up on a dias or anything, but I empathize with having to make "the choice". He chose wrong, but he had to choose.

The way Armstrong/Bruyneel treated Contador - another doper - during the '09 Tour was appalling. The way Armstrong/Bruyneel turned all the Postal/Disco fans against Contador - disgusting.

That's the difference for me.

I think that is pretty much it for most of us velogirl..
most of us are appalled at his smallness, meanness and general lowball persona.

 

[DirtyWorks]

From the post RR quoted, it seems he is saying that Herman told Tygart/USADA that the UCI destroyed Lance's samples.

This is not sinking in for me.... I could see pre-WADA samples vanishing. How many samples? Over what time period? It's a legitimate question.

 

[sittingbison]

This is not sinking in for me.... I could see pre-WADA samples vanishing. How many samples? Over what time period? It's a legitimate question.

It has been discussed at some length that UCI destroyed the 2009 and 2010 bio passport samples when USADA asked for them. They have also refused to co-operate with WADA with the bio passport data until recently when they caved in to pressure.

It is also suspected that the USADA prosecution really picked up steam when they finally got this data and were able to analyse it themselves. I think Ashendon might have alluded to this as well when he was talking about the 99.99% situation. And why he resigned.

Sorry, no links I'm (hard) at work