New marathon domination, Kenya.

[The Hitch]

2:02:57 for Dennis Kimetto in Berlin today.

Holy crap, under 2.03

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Search around for his posts on that forum about doping. He says that 1) epo would only make marathoners burn energy too quickly, and 2) that epo would have no effect on altitude-native athletes who have maxed out their aerobic base 2b) there is no scientific literature on the performance enhancing effect of epo on elite kenyans.

In other news, Moses Mosop just got dumped by his agent for not being comitted enough or hard working. Too bad he doesn't have Tinkoff as his manager to make him more professional...

I can't find it but I thought I saw a study where high altitude natives (Kenyans?) that headed to sea level found that their Hgb lowered to match.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Thanks again to veloclinic:

Prevalence of Blood Doping in Samples Collected from Elite Track and Field Athletes

1 to 48%

http://www.clinchem.org/content/57/5/762.long

Note that Marital Saugy is an author on the study. That guy pops up in all kinds of interesting ways.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

How long before someone goes sub 2 hours? Could be within 10-15 years the way the record has been tumbling recently.

 

[python]

i cant say anything about the new marathon record, but that kenyan runners dope - almost as much if not more than the notorious east europeans - is a proven fact.

just during 2012 and part of 2013 17 (!) runners tested positive.

source, names and doping substances:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/30/kenya-athletics-doping-matthews-kisorio

 

[zigmeister]

The recent Melbourne Marathon winner (sorry, can't find his name) suggested that the Kenyan's are now much more professional in their approach. Better funding and sponsorship coupled with now having managers has apparently given them more time and better resources to train than their predecessors.

Make of that what you will.

For the record his time was 2.11+ but then again he's not in the top echelon of runners from his country.

You could just change the name from Kenyan's to Team Sky. Deja Vu.

 

[HSNHSN]

That's not what he (Luc Krotwaar) is saying, although it's close to it.

He says that the last marathon world record he would vouch for is the 2h06m50s by Densamo in the late eighties. So he's skeptical about everything after that, especially times ran under 2h05m.

He thinks there's about a 10% chance this record is ran clean.

The rest of the article is just about the "perfect conditions" in Berlin and speculation about the 2 hour barrier.

Well, "I take every time under 2:05 with a grain of salt" sounds as explicit as it gets, when a former marathon runner talks about doping.

The other aspect I found interesting is that the 'classic' mantra "they can't possibly dope, since there's so many anti-doping controls" is used for marathon runners as well. And apparently, 10 to 15 times a year counts as lots of controls. ("Kimetto wordt tien tot vijftien keer per jaar gecontroleerd. Doping is onzin.")

 

[veganrob]

Kenyan woman positive

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mor...star-jeptoo-tests-positive-for-epo/ar-BBcdVx3

 

[noddy69]

Some context from the nineties: Good points in here.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19971026&slug=2568446

 

[gregrowlerson]

Some context from the nineties: Good points in here.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19971026&slug=2568446

Yeah an old article, but still makes for interesting reading.

I can't say that I've followed distance running much in the past decade, but scrolling through fastest times, it's very strange that the men's marathon record continues to get battered, but the times of Bekele and El Guerrouj remain untouched on the track. Are the doping controls much more stringent for the European Golden League meetings than they are at Marathon Meets?

Or is it more of a money issue? The 30th fastest marathon runner in the world can probably pick out a pretty big race and finish top five and earn a nice wage, whereas the 30th best 10,000 metres runner in the world is practically earning peanuts, unless they're American.

 

[The Hitch]

Yeah an old article, but still makes for interesting reading.

I can't say that I've followed distance running much in the past decade, but scrolling through fastest times, it's very strange that the men's marathon record continues to get battered, but the times of Bekele and El Guerrouj remain untouched on the track. Are the doping controls much more stringent for the European Golden League meetings than they are at Marathon Meets?

Or is it more of a money issue? The 30th fastest marathon runner in the world can probably pick out a pretty big race and finish top five and earn a nice wage, whereas the 30th best 10,000 metres runner in the world is practically earning peanuts, unless they're American.

The reason is that wr isn't necessarily the best comparison. The wr is a big deal in marathon and athletes will set out to beat it with pacemakers and choosing the best courses and conditions. In track it's always the win that matters-being faster than the 2nd place. So there isn't much focus on setting a high is pace for the first 8km.

this is probably since 10ks are part of track meets where winning your event is what the aim is, and the top guys only bother with the real big ones anyway, while in marathon it's a more direct thing organized by a city which wants the attention of a wr attempt and provides incentives for it.

So in the end, in10k any chance of a world record being broken is already over when the contenders start going for the win.

Probably also a case of all the best athletes going for marathon in recent years. What this thread was about was how like 6 or 7 years ago, the marathon scene just exploded with all these new Kenyans who hadn't competed before challenging all the records. Some of those go to 10 000 like tergat did and maybe they challenge kenenisas record.

 

[Amazinmets73]

Will we ever see East Africans competing in Grand Tours?

 

[42x16ss]

Will we ever see East Africans competing in Grand Tours?

I think we'll know sooner rather than later. MTN-Qhubeka has some promising young Africans, so give them and the generation that follows time to develop and we'll start seeing some nice rides. If Meintjes can improve his ITT in the next couple of years he could well become a Giro/Vuelta top 10 contender.

 

[del1962]

I think we'll know sooner rather than later. MTN-Qhubeka has some promising young Africans, so give them and the generation that follows time to develop and we'll start seeing some nice rides. If Meintjes can improve his ITT in the next couple of years he could well become a Giro/Vuelta top 10 contender.

I am not sure how Meintjes is an east African

Anyway I think Eritrean Merhawi Kudus should be competing in GTs over the next few years.

 

[the sceptic]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mor...star-jeptoo-tests-positive-for-epo/ar-BBcdVx3

Luckily the world record is cleans though.

 

[Amazinmets73]

I am not sure how Meintjes is an east African

Anyway I think Eritrean Merhawi Kudus should be competing in GTs over the next few years.

Was wondering the same thing, but didn't want to be rude. I ask about east Africans and he gives me a white Afrikaan. Alrighty then...

 

[veganrob]

Luckily the world record is cleans though.

Of course, aren't all WR's cleans.

 

[42x16ss]

I am not sure how Meintjes is an east African

Anyway I think Eritrean Merhawi Kudus should be competing in GTs over the next few years.

Yeah, my bad. I was thinking native Africans - not specifically East Africa. Kudus is another with serious potential. I think that MTN will start having some nice results in the next couple of years anyhow.

 

[gregrowlerson]

The reason is that wr isn't necessarily the best comparison. The wr is a big deal in marathon and athletes will set out to beat it with pacemakers and choosing the best courses and conditions. In track it's always the win that matters-being faster than the 2nd place. So there isn't much focus on setting a high is pace for the first 8km.

this is probably since 10ks are part of track meets where winning your event is what the aim is, and the top guys only bother with the real big ones anyway, while in marathon it's a more direct thing organized by a city which wants the attention of a wr attempt and provides incentives for it.

So in the end, in10k any chance of a world record being broken is already over when the contenders start going for the win.

Probably also a case of all the best athletes going for marathon in recent years. What this thread was about was how like 6 or 7 years ago, the marathon scene just exploded with all these new Kenyans who hadn't competed before challenging all the records. Some of those go to 10 000 like tergat did and maybe they challenge kenenisas record.

I don't think that the battle for the win - at the expense of a fast time - is a bigger factor in track distance running than on the road. If an athlete has the capability to run at close to a world record pace and does so, than it makes tactics/competition largely irrelevant. In the second half of the '90's there wasn't much in the way of tactics a lot of the time. Virtually every 3 and 5,000 race had 2 or 3 rabbits, and they'd set out at 60 second lap pace or close to. It was really more of a question of who could hold on the best, or even kick down a little over the last km. Everyone of El Guerrouj's middle distance races outside of major championships was the same. Rabbits sitting on insane 55, 56 second lap pace, no tactics required as Hicham was the strongest. He invariably had more left in the tank for the last 600 metres than his opposition. If you are the strongest, why stuff around with tactics allowing the potential for someone who can run a 51 second last lap to win? Why not just run every race at or close to world record speed?

Surely if there was an athlete today who could possibly beat 3:26 than he would go for the world record? Huge prestige in that.

There were a couple of match races between Komen and Gebrselassie too at 5,000; the first of which Komen won and nearly broke the WR; the rematch Haile won and did break his own mark; these races were crazy as they were run with a combination of set pace making (rabbits) and tactics (Haile ran a 54 second last lap from memory).

Also in '96 and '97 there were similar battles at 10,000 between Hissou and Tergat. The Moroccan took the first in a world record, and that had a big kick down in the last five laps. The following year the Kenyan broke the record in even more emphatic fashion. Running fast is sometimes the best tactic, so to me it is just strange that these track times don't really get approached nowadays, unless it's strictly a clinic issue.

Also, Gebrselassie used to set his 10km records at Hengelo, a low key meet in late May, with no opposition. I think Bekele did the same.

 

[gregrowlerson]

The reason is that wr isn't necessarily the best comparison. The wr is a big deal in marathon and athletes will set out to beat it with pacemakers and choosing the best courses and conditions. In track it's always the win that matters-being faster than the 2nd place. So there isn't much focus on setting a high is pace for the first 8km.

this is probably since 10ks are part of track meets where winning your event is what the aim is, and the top guys only bother with the real big ones anyway, while in marathon it's a more direct thing organized by a city which wants the attention of a wr attempt and provides incentives for it.

So in the end, in10k any chance of a world record being broken is already over when the contenders start going for the win.

Probably also a case of all the best athletes going for marathon in recent years. What this thread was about was how like 6 or 7 years ago, the marathon scene just exploded with all these new Kenyans who hadn't competed before challenging all the records. Some of those go to 10 000 like tergat did and maybe they challenge kenenisas record.

I don't think that the battle for the win - at the expense of a fast time - is a bigger factor in track distance running than on the road. If an athlete has the capability to run at close to a world record pace and does so, than it makes tactics/competition largely irrelevant. In the second half of the '90's there wasn't much in the way of tactics a lot of the time. Virtually every 3 and 5,000 race had 2 or 3 rabbits, and they'd set out at 60 second lap pace or close to. It was really more of a question of who could hold on the best, or even kick down a little over the last km. Everyone of El Guerrouj's middle distance races outside of major championships was the same. Rabbits sitting on insane 55, 56 second lap pace, no tactics required as Hicham was the strongest. He invariably had more left in the tank for the last 600 metres than his opposition. If you are the strongest, why stuff around with tactics allowing the potential for someone who can run a 51 second last lap to win? Why not just run every race at or close to world record speed?

Surely if there was an athlete today who could possibly beat 3:26 than he would go for the world record? Huge prestige in that.

There were a couple of match races between Komen and Gebrselassie too at 5,000; the first of which Komen won and nearly broke the WR; the rematch Haile won and did break his own mark; these races were crazy as they were run with a combination of set pace making (rabbits) and tactics (Haile ran a 54 second last lap from memory).

Also in '96 and '97 there were similar battles at 10,000 between Hissou and Tergat. The Moroccan took the first in a world record, and that had a big kick down in the last five laps. The following year the Kenyan broke the record in even more emphatic fashion. Running fast is sometimes the best tactic, so to me it is just strange that these track times don't really get approached nowadays, unless it's strictly a clinic issue.

Also, Gebrselassie used to set his 10km records at Hengelo, a low key meet in late May, with no opposition. I think Bekele did the same.

 

[ralphbert]

I don't have anything to add other than running 2:55m k's 42 times in a row is ridiculous. I doubt I could do it once.

Oh and this: http://afkinsider.com/77103/athletics-kenya-u-nder-scrutiny-jeptoo-doping-scandal/

 

[mariposa]

I don't have anything to add other than running 2:55m k's 42 times in a row is ridiculous. I doubt I could do it once.

Oh and this: http://afkinsider.com/77103/athletics-kenya-u-nder-scrutiny-jeptoo-doping-scandal/

The BBC story gives a little more context. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/29855763

I don't follow athletics very closely so had no idea that 36 Kenyans had tested positive in the last two years.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Jeptoo agent interview

Actually a remarkable candid interview and discussion about the doping issues in Kenya.

(Its a little all over the place and hard to read mind you)

 

[neineinei]

Wada to Assist Kenya With New Anti-Doping Body

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) will help create a new anti-doping body in Kenya after a report concluded the East African country has no effective programme to fight drug cheating.

WADA's announcement on a new Kenyan national anti-doping organisation followed a meeting with Kenyan government officials in Cape Town, South Africa, on Wednesday.

According to WADA's director general David Howman, who called the meeting 'constructive', the national anti-doping agencies from Norway and China will assist Kenya to set up the organisation.

The leader of ADN (Antidoping Norge), Anders Solheim, says that one of the biggest problems in Kenya is foreign agents and coaches who are comming to Kenya to recruit runners to make money on them, and that the most important thing for the new anti-doping body is to get a proper testing system going.

http://www.vg.no/sport/doping/norges-dopingjegere-skal-rydde-opp/a/23329660/ (Norwegian)

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Problems With Antidoping System Cast a Shadow on Kenyan Runners

Juliet Macur

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/07/s...ow-on-all-its-runners.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0