New WSJ Article 7/10/10

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Cobblestones said:
You could say 'I don't recall' when asked 'who else was in the room?' You can't say 'I don't recall' when asked whether you took a transfusion or not. That sh|t won't fly.

Particularly if you're not certain the other guys in the room didn't already provide testimony that you were there...that's when the perjury trap gets set, nets a fish and that fish is bait. There's also the Grand Jury problem; if you refuse to cooperate you can held for contempt. By "held" I don't mean that reassuring hug from that special someone.
 
Jul 22, 2009
107
0
0
Oldman said:
Particularly if you're not certain the other guys in the room didn't already provide testimony that you were there...that's when the perjury trap gets set, nets a fish and that fish is bait. There's also the Grand Jury problem; if you refuse to cooperate you can held for contempt. By "held" I don't mean that reassuring hug from that special someone.

Just out of curiousity, assuming that all of the accusations against Armstrong/Postal/Bruyneel/etc, prove to be true, and indictments follow.

Any idea what the possible legal ramifications for someone like George Hincapie being caught lying under oath (try to protect LA) would be ???
 
Jul 13, 2009
47
0
0
i've felt all along that the legal angle seems to be leaning toward racketeering--even if it started as a probe into distribution and use of controlled substances. that feeling is even stronger now after reading this latest article.

i never felt this was misuse of public funds case. as for misusing private funds (trek, discovery, radio shack etc), the case would not be investigated and brought by a federal agency--it would be a matter of state law. i'm not sure conversion would lie anyway for the bike-sales-for-drugs aspect--unless the bikes were lent to the team and expected to be returned after a given amount of time. if the bikes were given free and clear, the bikes where theirs to do with as they pleased. the only legal angles would be tax and insurance fraud on the part of trek and the team.

since the bikes where likely insured, if they were sold and then claimed on the insurance, the insurance company could sue for fraud and possibly press charges for larceny by trick. but again that would be a state law case and would not involve the feds.

if the "stolen" bikes were reported for tax purposes as losses, then tax fraud has been committed. it would also be tax fraud if they were claiming their doping products, paraphernalia, and medical staff as medical expense items. i seriously doubt they were offsetting by listing the revenue from the "stolen" bikes as miscellaneous revenues. tax fraud is a federal crime.

answers to some questions i saw in the thread:

hincappie's fifth amendment right allows him to refuse to answer anything for as long as he wishes to not answer anything. he can say "i don't recall" when asked if he ever transfused or took epo or saw anyone else doing so. the risk of perjury will be very small because it is almost impossible to prove what someone does or does not recall at any given moment (unlike someone saying flat out, "i did not do it").

hamilton's statement that he will only answer questions if subpoenaed indicates that he won't cooperate with the investigation, since subpoenas compel participation at legal proceedings, and legal proceedings follow investigations. he could be prosecuted for obstructing justice if he doesn't help with the investigation, however--except that he has the right not to provide evidence that incriminates himself in any way.

foreign cyclists can be subpoenaed and prosecuted in the US if they have committed a crime here or have facilitated the commission of crime here from abroad. plus there are laws that allow for prosecution of multinational criminal rings, which is where i feel this case is headed. whether they will brought to stand trial and serve their convictions here will depend upon the applicable extradition treaties and their countries' willingness to extradite them.

this case has the makings to be huge--it will make BALCO look quaint. i wouldn't doubt that someone in baseball prodded the fda to investigate this. baseball is america's sport, and it had to rankle some very rich and powerful people, who were called before congressional hearings regarding doping in baseball, that armstong, who has political aspirations, was prancing around like king of the world.

what i am most interested in is seeing how dirty and complicit livestrong is in all this. what better front could one wish for an international doping ring that relies predominantly on cancer meds, than a cancer foundation?

wasn't lance a part owner of the teams? i thought i remembered something along those lines.

ps: polish--the transfusing operation described for postal wasn't "rinky dink," it was pretty smart actually. it was small scale, so it easy to keep under wraps and lessen the likelihood of bribery, leaks, and detection. also, with fewer "clients" it was easier to keep track of the blood and avoid potentially lethal mistakes. most people focus on the economies of scale, but quality is always sacrificed for bigness. with illegal operations, successful criminals who do well, understand the diseconomies of scale.
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
3,853
1
0
spectacle said:
ps: polish--the transfusing operation described for postal wasn't "rinky dink," it was smart. it was small scale, so it easy to keep under wraps and lessen the likelihood of bribery, leaks, and detection. also, with fewer "clients" it was easier to keep track of the blood and avoid potentially lethal mistakes. most people focus on the economies of scale, but quality is always sacrificed for bigness. with illegal operations, successful criminals who do well, understand the diseconomies of scale.

Yes, the Postal Transfusion system was "smart" and "small scale" and had the riders health in mind. The 2 docs Floyd had at his sides were not holding him down lol.

And the story is no longer "Lance handed me EPO packets in front of Kirsten".
The Floyd bombshell is now "Lance said he stopped using EPO".

As far as Novitsky is concerned - how illegal is it for an American to be transfusing blood in a French Hotel?


And I expect Big George to tell the truth:

"yes, I transfused blood"
"no, Lance did not force me to do it"
 
tockit said:
Just out of curiousity, assuming that all of the accusations against Armstrong/Postal/Bruyneel/etc, prove to be true, and indictments follow.

Any idea what the possible legal ramifications for someone like George Hincapie being caught lying under oath (try to protect LA) would be ???

The prosecution would need compelling testimony to prove the lie. That's the perjury and I doubt that would happen. Spectacle summarized things as far as a viable likely direction for the investigation but some of the conspiracy to prosecute stretches the imagination. This is now appearing to be a means to make a statement about international illegal trade and the offspring crimes related to it.
 
May 25, 2009
332
0
0
spectacle said:
i've felt all along that the legal angle seems to be leaning toward racketeering--even if it started as a probe into distribution and use of controlled substances. that feeling is even stronger now after reading this latest article.

i never felt this was misuse of public funds case. as for misusing private funds (trek, discovery, radio shack etc), the case would not be investigated and brought by a federal agency--it would be a matter of state law. i'm not sure conversion would lie anyway for the bike-sales-for-drugs aspect--unless the bikes were lent to the team and expected to be returned after a given amount of time. if the bikes were given free and clear, the bikes where theirs to do with as they pleased. the only legal angles would be tax and insurance fraud on the part of trek and the team.

since the bikes where likely insured, if they were sold and then claimed on the insurance, the insurance company could sue for fraud and possibly press charges for larceny by trick. but again that would be a state law case and would not involve the feds.

if the "stolen" bikes were reported for tax purposes as losses, then tax fraud has been committed. it would also be tax fraud if they were claiming their doping products, paraphernalia, and medical staff as medical expense items. i seriously doubt they were offsetting by listing the revenue from the "stolen" bikes as miscellaneous revenues. tax fraud is a federal crime.

answers to some questions i saw in the thread:

hincappie's fifth amendment right allows him to refuse to answer anything for as long as he wishes to not answer anything. he can absolutely say "i don't recall" when asked if he ever transfused or took epo or saw anyone else doing so. the risk of perjury will be very small because it is almost impossible to prove what someone does or does not recall at any given moment (unlike someone saying flat out, "i did not do it").

hamilton's statement that he will only answer questions if subpoenaed indicates that he won't cooperate with the investigation, since subpoenas compel participation at legal proceedings, and legal proceedings follow investigations. he could be prosecuted for obstructing justice if he doesn't help with the investigation, however--except that he has an absolute right not to provide evidence that incriminates himself in any way.

foreign cyclists can be subpoenaed and prosecuted in the US if they have committed a crime here or have facilitated the commission of crime here from abroad. plus there are laws that allow for prosecution of multinational criminal rings, which is where i feel this case is headed. whether they will brought to stand trial and serve their convictions here will depend upon the applicable extradition treaties and their countries' willingness to extradite them.

this case has the makings to be huge--it will make BALCO look quaint. i wouldn't doubt that someone in baseball prodded the fda to investigate this. baseball is america's sport, and it had to rankle some very rich and powerful people, who were called before congressional hearings regarding doping in baseball, that armstong, who has political aspirations, was prancing around like king of the world.

what i am most interested in is seeing how dirty and complicit livestrong is in all this. what better front could one wish for an international doping ring that relies predominantly on cancer meds, than a cancer foundation?

wasn't lance a part owner of the teams? i thought i remembered something along those lines.

ps: polish--the transfusing operation described for postal wasn't "rinky dink," it was smart. it was small scale, so it easy to keep under wraps and lessen the likelihood of bribery, leaks, and detection. also, with fewer "clients" it was easier to keep track of the blood and avoid potentially lethal mistakes. most people focus on the economies of scale, but quality is always sacrificed for bigness. with illegal operations, successful criminals who do well, understand the diseconomies of scale.

Good post. I'll have to research racketeering in US and see how this fits.
 
Jul 9, 2010
8
0
0
unsheath said:
^^ Troll alert. Don't bite lads...

Troll alert? Is this how you announce your presence to the forum? Or is it perhaps you have nothing good to say and therefore feel free to attempt to demean other posters who you presume to be LA fans?

The trolls are those who seek to quash others from posts and turn every thread into some kind of anti-RS/LA/Bruyneel orgy. Playing the troll card simply makes you the troll.
 
May 21, 2010
581
0
0
Lepsallini said:
The wsj articles seem to be getting weaker and fluffier.

I concur!

By specifically mentioning the names of people approached (thus far) in the investigation and finding more corroborating evidence it is clear the WSJ is relying on pure fluff rather than journalism. A veritable puff pastry of a piece... if you will ...
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
it seems to me to having the desired affect.

Team sponsorship if getting difficult to find, due to doping and until pro-cycling realises that there are enough people involved that want it clean there will always be scandals breaking to drag it back down to the dirtiest sport, which it probably isn't but other sports turn a blind eye to their doping like cycling used too..

so novitsky, wsj, landis etc are getting results. Uniballer at this rate will be the top cyclist of that 'dirt sport' where they all doped, ie top doper....
 
Jul 13, 2009
47
0
0
Polish said:
As far as Novitsky is concerned - how illegal is it for an American to be transfusing blood in a French Hotel?

considering this is apparently an international legal collaboration, it doesn't matter whether novitsky is concerned with it or not, because in france, it's pretty illegal. i'm not sure how probable cause works there, but in the US, they'd have enough to arrest him right now for sporting fraud, and since he poses a flight risk--non bail pour le monsieur.

what novitisky is probably concerned with is:
1. solicitation to commit fraud and violate federal laws related to controlled substances
2. conspiracy to commit fraud and violate federal laws related to controlled substances
3. solicitation to commit fraud and violate international laws related to controlled substances
4. conspiracy to commit fraud and violate international law related to controlled substances
5. domestic and international trafficking in controlled substances
6. use of extortion and intimidation to induce others to violate domestic and international laws related to controlled substances
7. use of extortion and intimidation to silence those who would go to the authorities
8. bribery and collusion
9. tax fraud
10. the use of a tax exempt charity to front an illegal multinational controlled substances distribution ring

if your ramblings are evidence of team lance's understanding of what is going on, then i'd say he's all but cooked.

one thing to keep in mind, law enforcement often feeds information to the press to trip suspects up. who's to say george isn't working with the feds already? maybe he is and the whole "he'll talk after the tour" thing is just a rouse so that lance will apply his infamous intimidation tactics on george, except that this time, george will be wired and lance, and all of his d*ckishness, will be captured on tape like mel gibson.
 
spectacle said:
considering this is apparently an international legal collaboration, it doesn't matter whether novitsky is concerned with it or not, because in france, it's pretty illegal. not sure how probable cause works there, but in the US, they'd have enough to arrest him right now for sports fraud, and since he poses a flight risk--non bail pour le monsieur.

what novitisky is concerned with is:
1. solicitation to commit fraud and violate federal laws related to controlled substances
2. conspiracy to commit fraud and violate federal laws related to controlled substances
3. solicitation to commit fraud and violate international laws related to controlled substances
4. conspiracy to commit fraud and violate international law related to controlled substances
5. domestic and international trafficking in controlled substances
6. use of extortion and intimidation to induce others to violate domestic and international laws related to controlled substances
7. use of extortion and intimidation to silence those who would go to the authorities
8. bribery and collusion
9. tax fraud
10. the use of a tax exempt charity to front an illegal multinational controlled substances distribution ring

if your ramblings are evidence of team lance's understanding of what is going on, then i'd say he's all but cooked.

one thing to keep in mind, law enforcement often feeds information to the press to trip suspects up. who's to say george isn't working with the feds already, maybe he's wired and the whole, "he'll talk after the tour" is just a rouse so that lance will do one of his infamous intimidation tactics on george, except that this time, george will be wired and lance and all of his d*ckiness will be captured on tape like mel gibson?


The George part seems far fetched but it also raises the possibility that someone currently on RS could be doing the same thing.
 
Jul 10, 2010
21
0
0
Oldman said:
[/I]

The George part seems far fetched but it also raises the possibility that someone currently on RS could be doing the same thing.


That is even more far fetched. They know where their bread is buttered. It would be hilarious though to have Chris Horner turn out to be an informant, rather than the **** kisser he's become.
 
Jul 5, 2010
6
0
0
you gotta figure Heras would have some good stories to tell...think of 2002 to Mongie with Lance, Heras and Beloki...definitely juiced then--and, of course, later after Postal.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
I wonder will T-Rek do a madone in prison strip colours and sram do a soap set of accessories for it.....no doubt nikey will make the prison outfit.....looking good to flog to the fanboys
 
Jun 26, 2009
45
0
0
Seriously, be interesting to in be a conference room at the Nike campus right now - LA's a big asset for them: Nike is very good at doing the math, and taking sponsorship right to the edge - as long as you're not abusing animals, Nike will continue to pay you, no matter what you do. No doubt their PR team is working full-time with Lance's - remember that athletic product is sold to retailers on six-month future timelines; that's a lot of Livestrong product on order for Footlocker that could get cancelled...
 

buckwheat

BANNED
Sep 24, 2009
1,852
0
0
Roadent said:
Seriously, be interesting to in be a conference room at the Nike campus right now - LA's a big asset for them: Nike is very good at doing the math, and taking sponsorship right to the edge - as long as you're not abusing animals, Nike will continue to pay you, no matter what you do. No doubt their PR team is working full-time with Lance's - remember that athletic product is sold to retailers on six-month future timelines; that's a lot of Livestrong product on order for Footlocker that could get cancelled...

they are gonna pull the bs that cancer patients are pumped full of chemo and how else do you think Pro riders hold it together if not for la bomba? Only when it's necessary, when is it necessary? all the time, etc.

My dad's a heart patient and he takes a handfull of pills a day. A lot of people take a lot of stuff. Many take other sexual PED's. They are going to deflect to that.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Roadent said:
Seriously, be interesting to in be a conference room at the Nike campus right now - LA's a big asset for them: Nike is very good at doing the math, and taking sponsorship right to the edge - as long as you're not abusing animals, Nike will continue to pay you, no matter what you do. No doubt their PR team is working full-time with Lance's - remember that athletic product is sold to retailers on six-month future timelines; that's a lot of Livestrong product on order for Footlocker that could get cancelled...

don't worry they can flog it on the back of the Giro Della Prigione from the Alcatraz prologue to the finish in San Quentin....

by the way Texas has the largest prison system in America, with more than 150000 prisoners behind bars....no wonder LA went of the rails he's a Texan.
 

Barrus

BANNED
Apr 28, 2010
3,480
1
0
Benotti69 said:
don't worry they can flog it on the back of the Giro Della Prigione from the Alcatraz prologue to the finish in San Quentin....

by the way Texas has the largest prison system in America, with more than 150000 prisoners behind bars....no wonder LA went of the rails he's a Texan.

Well it also has to do that other states ship their inmates to texas
 
Jun 24, 2009
56
0
0
Roadent said:
Seriously, be interesting to in be a conference room at the Nike campus right now - LA's a big asset for them: Nike is very good at doing the math, and taking sponsorship right to the edge - as long as you're not abusing animals, Nike will continue to pay you, no matter what you do. No doubt their PR team is working full-time with Lance's - remember that athletic product is sold to retailers on six-month future timelines; that's a lot of Livestrong product on order for Footlocker that could get cancelled...

I'm sure there's some discussion about LA, but I think they've got bigger fish to fry with Tiger Woods. By staying with him, they were making a bet that he'd come back on Tour, continue to dominate and everyone would forget what a DB he really is. It doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon. I'll bet there's some second guessing going on in a few conference rooms at corporate headquarters.
 
Jun 24, 2009
56
0
0
oldschoolnik said:
Re; Hincapie Given how few people were probably in the "doping" room at the same time, why is it a choice between lying to prosecutors or signing like a canary? Why can't George just say "I don't recall" in response to most of the tough questions? Then Novitsky ends up with a few people saying I saw this and a few saying "I don't recall"?

Still waiting for "teeth" of the investigation.

Nik

Me too. I hope at some point this thing gets more meat on it than depositions from a bunch of people that could hardly be characterized as reputable.
 
Jul 9, 2010
8
0
0
gearmasher said:
That is even more far fetched. They know where their bread is buttered. It would be hilarious though to have Chris Horner turn out to be an informant, rather than the **** kisser he's become.

haha that's a good one ... Horner the Mole. Would make for a nice book in retirement for him.

I have to think that no one will say anything other than "no" and "I can't recall". At the end of a long career, why would George want to throw it all away by revealing that his success was all a sham and his results were dope fueled? There have been no failed drug tests and no one caught with a boot full of drugs and syringes.

Even if offered immunity (from whatever) why would any of the Postal/Disco riders or managers/DS' want to divulge anything when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of any wrongdoing other than the "good word" of flandis and the bitter diatribes by Lemond? There has been no new evidence, only the claim of an admitted perjurer and liar on a massive scale.

I agree that the flock know who butters their bread and have no incentive to talk, especially since some want to stay in cycling after their careers are over, and probably all don't want to tell their friends and fans that the've been doping all this time.

Plus, I'm quite sure that staying in good faith within la Familia could only be considered a good thing that will lead to future jobs and opportunites from the boss. So me thinks that without pictures of IV's or syringes stuck in their arms, everyone will stay silent. Think how many riders still dispute a failed drug test?

As a parallel, what was the tipping point in the tmobile/telekom domino confession? At some point they started lining up to seek penance, but perhaps only when sure they could still keep their job. Look at der Kaiser, despite practically everyone from telekom/tmobile has confessed, as well as his manager yet he still won't cave in. So unless the FBI/interpol/WADA/UCI can come up with something more than 'floyd said so and his word must be good now since he's buddies with lemond', I think omerta will rule.

And for tax evasion? I think any hard evidence/documentation from Tailwind/Bruyneel has been shredded and - as noted earlier in this thread - the monetary amounts were probably small enough to explain away as part of any general ledger account.

Also, I don't think the conspiracy, purchase, or transportation of controlled substances charges will work either since to my knowledge, Flandis only spoke of blood doping practices in this latest "bombshell". In his earlier dud during the TdCalifornia he mentioned going to LA's house to pick up his EPO, but if he had any evidence of that whatsoever, I think it would've already come out. In that whole episode his whole strategy seemed to be to get lance to sue him so some lawyers could dig out the goods on LA during the discovery process.
 

buckwheat

BANNED
Sep 24, 2009
1,852
0
0
Lepsallini said:
haha that's a good one ... Horner the Mole. Would make for a nice book in retirement for him.

I have to think that no one will say anything other than "no" and "I can't recall". At the end of a long career, why would George want to throw it all away by revealing that his success was all a sham and his results were dope fueled? There have been no failed drug tests and no one caught with a boot full of drugs and syringes.

Even if offered immunity (from whatever) why would any of the Postal/Disco riders or managers/DS' want to divulge anything when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of any wrongdoing other than the "good word" of flandis and the bitter diatribes by Lemond? There has been no new evidence, only the claim of an admitted perjurer and liar on a massive scale.

I agree that the flock know who butters their bread and have no incentive to talk, especially since some want to stay in cycling after their careers are over, and probably all don't want to tell their friends and fans that the've been doping all this time.

Plus, I'm quite sure that staying in good faith within la Familia could only be considered a good thing that will lead to future jobs and opportunites from the boss. So me thinks that without pictures of IV's or syringes stuck in their arms, everyone will stay silent. Think how many riders still dispute a failed drug test?

As a parallel, what was the tipping point in the tmobile/telekom domino confession? At some point they started lining up to seek penance, but perhaps only when sure they could still keep their job. Look at der Kaiser, despite practically everyone from telekom/tmobile has confessed, as well as his manager yet he still won't cave in. So unless the FBI/interpol/WADA/UCI can come up with something more than 'floyd said so and his word must be good now since he's buddies with lemond', I think omerta will rule.

And for tax evasion? I think any hard evidence/documentation from Tailwind/Bruyneel has been shredded and - as noted earlier in this thread - the monetary amounts were probably small enough to explain away as part of any general ledger account.

Also, I don't think the conspiracy, purchase, or transportation of controlled substances charges will work either since to my knowledge, Flandis only spoke of blood doping practices in this latest "bombshell". In his earlier dud during the TdCalifornia he mentioned going to LA's house to pick up his EPO, but if he had any evidence of that whatsoever, I think it would've already come out. In that whole episode his whole strategy seemed to be to get lance to sue him so some lawyers could dig out the goods on LA during the discovery process.

Hincapie will talk because he doesn't know who else talked.
 
Jul 9, 2010
8
0
0
buckwheat said:
Hincapie will talk because he doesn't know who else talked.

But that's my point - all it is is talk. No pictures, failed drug tests or dumpsters with syringes. No weapon and no corpse. Only somebody possibly saying you did it. I wouldn't confess to anything under those conditions.
 
Mar 7, 2010
64
0
0
buckwheat said:
Hincapie will talk because he doesn't know who else talked.

Also, he does not want to go to prison for perjury ala Jones. Unless Lance has gotten into Hincapies clothing business George has no reason to lie, other than image and reputation. He has a ready business to get into after cycling. He may lose out if he has aspirations such as coaching or becoming a DS though.

One thing the article said is this investigation is moving along quickly because people are cooperating, unlike BALCO where people were covering up. Making the statement that people are cooperating says the WSJ isn't giving up a lot, maybe because Novitsky isn't giving up a lot. In other words, more people have been contacted and spoken to than what has been let on.:)
 
Mar 7, 2010
64
0
0
Lepsallini said:
But that's my point - all it is is talk. No pictures, failed drug tests or dumpsters with syringes. No weapon and no corpse. Only somebody possibly saying you did it. I wouldn't confess to anything under those conditions.

With enough witness accounts you don't need 'the smoking gun.'

As for dumpsters with syringes, maybe the blood bags from the 2009 TDF will do.:D